Man City FFP Breaches

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Does anyone really believe that would happen though. I don’t know what can happen legally or otherwise but I have never heard of a football club being stripped of trophies over a period of years, it may have happened but I don’t know of it. I simply cannot see it happening. Points deductions are possible but we are talking about a club that could probably buy the PL itself (or at least it’s owners could). City’s owners have wealth beyond the dreams of avarice and power that comes with that. Maybe I’m just a cynic but I think City will get a slap on the wrist and told to behave in future.

Juve when they were found guilty and relegated in 2006, the 2005/6 title was taken from them.

[SydneyClaret]

Well run clubs like ourselves and Norwich are punished every year with the constant threat of relegation because we can’t possibly compete with clubs who are allowed to run up 100s of millions of debt in order to secure their place in Europe and attempt to win the Premier league.

It’s almost impossible to cheat with all the loopholes allowing clubs like City and Chelsea to spend $200m on one player so the fact that City is is some going.

Football needs a reset. Salary caps, strict limits on squad sizes, youth transfers etc. in order to make it competitive again.

[Chester Perry]

Rory Smith in the New York Times makes the clearest point about all this

'That City was better [when they won their trophies] is not in question. What is at stake, instead, is whether it was in a position to reach all of those finals, to win all of those trophies, while operating under the same rules and restrictions as everyone else. If it was not, then there is no punishment, no matter how harsh, that restores what has been lost.

It’s Not Just What Manchester City Won. It’s What Others Lost.
Players, and fans, can accept losing. It is part of sports. It is different, though, if they find out one side wasn’t playing by the same rules.
https://archive.is/xj7ux

[pushpinpussy]

Well run clubs like ourselves and Norwich are punished every year with the constant threat of relegation because we can’t possibly compete with clubs who are allowed to run up 100s of millions of debt in order to secure their place in Europe and attempt to win the Premier league.

It’s almost impossible to cheat with all the loopholes allowing clubs like City and Chelsea to spend $200m on one player so the fact that City is is some going.

Football needs a reset. Salary caps, strict limits on squad sizes, youth transfers etc. in order to make it competitive again.

I undertook my dissertation on Bosman in the late 90s and 2 suggestions were made then for upholding competitive balance between teams. The first suggestions was a collective wage agreement limiting salaries. However, it was suggested that the top clubs would still find the ways around salary caps like giving bonuses and endorsements which would undermine it. Plus a salary cap is probably incompatible with Article 101 TFEU as it restricts the ability of a club to freely recruit players. The second suggestions was solidarity payments which included the redistribution of a part of the income received by the clubs. However it was stated that football is not like any other business and this would not be fair practice.

[houseboy]

Juve when they were found guilty and relegated in 2006, the 2005/6 title was taken from them.

Yeah agreed but that was only the most recent title at the time. They weren’t punished retrospectively over years. I believe City should be punished but in what way without punishing the fans I don’t know. The owners have so much money that fines won’t hurt. In a perfect world they would be banned from owning a football but that won’t happen.
The main thing that comes from all this is that more care should be taken in what is happening at a club ‘at the time’ as opposed to what’s happened over years. The football authorities are as much to blame as City in my view for not seeing the obvious sooner.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Yeah agreed but that was only the most recent title at the time. They weren’t punished retrospectively over years. I believe City should be punished but in what way without punishing the fans I don’t know. The owners have so much money that fines won’t hurt. In a perfect world they would be banned from owning a football but that won’t happen.
The main thing that comes from all this is that more care should be taken in what is happening at a club ‘at the time’ as opposed to what’s happened over years. The football authorities are as much to blame as City in my view for not seeing the obvious sooner.

Why are you so concerned about the fans?
On social media they've known for years that the clubs been bending the rules and they've been adamant they won't get caught/face punishment and told anyone who listens that everyone else is just jealous.
I've no sympathy for that lot if the club is rightly stripped of its titles etc.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I undertook my dissertation on Bosman in the late 90s and 2 suggestions were made then for upholding competitive balance between teams. The first suggestions was a collective wage agreement limiting salaries. However, it was suggested that the top clubs would still find the ways around salary caps like giving bonuses and endorsements which would undermine it. Plus a salary cap is probably incompatible with Article 101 TFEU as it restricts the ability of a club to freely recruit players. The second suggestions was solidarity payments which included the redistribution of a part of the income received by the clubs. However it was stated that football is not like any other business and this would not be fair practice.

La Liga manages to operate a wage/finance restriction quite well as shown by Barca having to get it's act together in recent years.

It's English fans who seem to think that something similar isn't fair/can't be done/goes against competition rules blah blah blah.

[RVclaret]

Case against City could take up to 4 years.

Times article here:

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fw ... 230acef10d

[Stayingup]

Case against City could take up to 4 years.

Times article here:

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fw ... 230acef10d

Yes I read that. Has the Premier League got the will for this? Hiring a top Lawyer on £5000 / hour, as City have done, would suggest they are certainly guilty.

[CombatClaret]

The main thing that comes from all this is that more care should be taken in what is happening at a club ‘at the time’ as opposed to what’s happened over years. The football authorities are as much to blame as City in my view for not seeing the obvious sooner.

I sympathize with the Premier League, the whole case hinges around Man City not providing accurate financial information. Suspecting is one thing, proving is another. It's probably far easier and in their best interest to turn a blind eye.
They've had to go away and investigate the entire thing, try to untangle a complex web of financial smoke screens, no wonder it takes years of forensic accounting, it was designed to be hidden.

When you make an allegation of such scale you better ensure your case is watertight. I'd rather it take a decade and nail them, than go off half-cocked and it die on it's arse.

[Chester Perry]

I sympathize with the Premier League, the whole case hinges around Man City not providing accurate financial information. Suspecting is one thing, proving is another. It's probably far easier and in their best interest to turn a blind eye.
They've had to go away and investigate the entire thing, try to untangle a complex web of financial smoke screens, no wonder it takes years of forensic accounting, it was designed to be hidden.

When you make an allegation of such scale you better ensure your case is watertight. I'd rather it take a decade and nail them, than go off half-cocked and it die on it's arse.

It was only after the Football Leaks that the Premier League had the basis of knowledge to start the investigation - which they did pretty promptly and it appears with a great amount of diligence and care knowing that they had to be rigorous in adhering to their own rules throughout or any case would be thrown out on a technicality. Meanwhile City, apparently, threw up block after block in the English Courts.

My guess is that is will be the persistent obstructions that will have the greatest impact on any punishment, with the severity of punishment for each charge found to be proven being determined by this factor of not acting in good faith.

[Burnley Ace]

Yes I read that. Has the Premier League got the will for this? Hiring a top Lawyer on £5000 / hour, as City have done, would suggest they are certainly guilty.

Hiring a top lawyer, who has already won a similar case for City against UEFA, suggests that they know how to win this case and get their costs back.

Would hiring a mediocre lawyer suggest they are innocent?

[Sproggy]

Hiring a top lawyer, who has already won a similar case for City against UEFA, suggests that they know how to win this case and get their costs back.

Would hiring a mediocre lawyer suggest they are innocent?

They won but they weren't innocent. UEFA found them guily and gave them a 2 year ban. City went to CAS who ruled in their favour only because some of the evidence was older than 5 years.

[Chester Perry]

Hiring a top lawyer, who has already won a similar case for City against UEFA, suggests that they know how to win this case and get their costs back.

Would hiring a mediocre lawyer suggest they are innocent?

The legal representation city are using is the same one this ownership group has used from the first moment it decided to get into football - it advised on their takeover and has been with them every step of the way, that doesn't mean that on larger cases additional personnel, from other firms, are not brought in to support their efforts, quite the contrary, as in most areas of vast coverage people/firms develop specialisms, it is the only way to excel

[Chester Perry]

They won but they weren't innocent. UEFA found them guily and gave them a 2 year ban. City went to CAS who ruled in their favour only because some of the evidence was older than 5 years.

CAS also overturned some UEFA findings for lack of sufficient evidence. The one thing CAS did find City guilty of was obstruction/lack of co-operation and fined them EUR10m for it.

City's guilt is presumed by most as a direct result of that lack of co-operation, a judgement most underline with the evidence provided by Football Leaks - that information was obtained illegally, City have sought to get the English Courts to rule it as being inadmissible as a result - so far that has failed. Crucially the Premier Leagues own rules allow for the Football Leaks data to be used as evidence

Those who want a refresher on what that contained will find most of it in detail under this search
http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... sf=msgonly

[NRC]

The way forward here is for the Premier League to somehow find some element of USA jurisdictional claim… then bring the FBI in…. It won’t take long! Maybe a US player or flow of money via the US…..?

[Chester Perry]

The way forward here is for the Premier League to somehow find some element of USA jurisdictional claim… then bring the FBI in…. It won’t take long! Maybe a US player or flow of money via the US…..?

That might help on the investigation side but it appears that if the Premier League get this procedurally right (given they believe they have sufficient damning evidence, courtesy of Football Leaks and subsequently having their the courts - right up to the high Court- back their demands for further information from City/CFG) then it is down to proving their case. Of course American courts can get pretty tough on fines and jail time, but such legal cases may also apply in this country if the Premier League wins, because that will mean a decade of illegal filings at Companies House.

[bfcjg]

The City fans sing "We're not really here" for some reason . It may well come true.
https://www.mancity.com/news/mens/man-c ... e-63726949

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

Yeah agreed but that was only the most recent title at the time. They weren’t punished retrospectively over years. I believe City should be punished but in what way without punishing the fans I don’t know. The owners have so much money that fines won’t hurt. In a perfect world they would be banned from owning a football but that won’t happen.
The main thing that comes from all this is that more care should be taken in what is happening at a club ‘at the time’ as opposed to what’s happened over years. The football authorities are as much to blame as City in my view for not seeing the obvious sooner.

A permanent ban from owning the club is probably the only correct punishment a bit like when abramowich was forced out of Chelsea. They have cheated their way to the titles they have gained.

The premier league have let these people into the league probably time to get them out.

[Stayingup]

Hiring a top lawyer, who has already won a similar case for City against UEFA, suggests that they know how to win this case and get their costs back.

Would hiring a mediocre lawyer suggest they are innocent?

Didn't UEFA have a time line that stopped their investigations? They knew they were guilty but couldn't push it through. I think there was another reason also but can't remember it.

[Carwin261]

Didn't UEFA have a time line that stopped their investigations? They knew they were guilty but couldn't push it through. I think there was another reason also but can't remember it.

Yes ,the original enquiry could only go back 4,or 5 yrs,but the new enquiry has no limits.

[houseboy]

Why are you so concerned about the fans?
On social media they've known for years that the clubs been bending the rules and they've been adamant they won't get caught/face punishment and told anyone who listens that everyone else is just jealous.
I've no sympathy for that lot if the club is rightly stripped of its titles etc.

Most fans haven’t a clue. Do you know what’s going on for certain at Burnley? I don’t. I assume all is fine but I don’t actually know. I have sympathy for all fans but none for dodgy owners. What would you have happen? Would you like City to go bust? If so why? As I’ve said before a club is not it’s owners it is simply in their temporary hands. I don’t blame fans for badly run clubs…ever.

[houseboy]

A permanent ban from owning the club is probably the only correct punishment a bit like when abramowich was forced out of Chelsea. They have cheated their way to the titles they have gained.

The premier league have let these people into the league probably time to get them out.

I would agree with this entirely but the problem is I can’t see it happening. The ‘club’ is innocent, it’s the owners that are guilty, which is why I always have difficulty with points deductions etc. There is the club as an entity, there are the fans and there are the owners and only one is guilty. They should be severely punished.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Most fans haven’t a clue. Do you know what’s going on for certain at Burnley? I don’t. I assume all is fine but I don’t actually know. I have sympathy for all fans but none for dodgy owners. What would you have happen? Would you like City to go bust? If so why? As I’ve said before a club is not it’s owners it is simply in their temporary hands. I don’t blame fans for badly run clubs…ever.

They don't need to go bust, they do need to be punished.
I keep track of what's going on here, but I'd be willing to bet we aren't bending/breaking the rules anything like City are/have been doing.

Like I said, their fans gloat about it, they know/knew the club wasn't behaving themselves but they were convinced they'd get away with it because their owners have billions.

Sod them, I hope they lose this case.

[Chobulous]

I’ve no time for this “it’s not the fans, it’s the owners “ argument. The fans are just as complicit. They know full well what is happening at their clubs. They are happy to go along with the big money signings. They ignore the blatant cheating that goes on. As long as the wins keep happening and the points keep rolling in. Just like our fans would be if the positions were reversed.
It’s very easy to ignore all of these things when you are guaranteed success, just as it is easy to be all sanctimonious when you aren’t.

[Spijed]

I would agree with this entirely but the problem is I can’t see it happening. The ‘club’ is innocent, it’s the owners that are guilty, which is why I always have difficulty with points deductions etc. There is the club as an entity, there are the fans and there are the owners and only one is guilty. They should be severely punished.

The club "Man City" has been transformed completely from what it once was, due to THAT money. You have completely ignored the fact that the fans of Man City are enjoying the ride with dodgy money , something they know all about. Once the owners have left the Etihad stadium will still be there, as will a state of the are training complex, along with all those PL titles Man City have won.

[Jakubclaret]

I’ve no time for this “it’s not the fans, it’s the owners “ argument. The fans are just as complicit. They know full well what is happening at their clubs. They are happy to go along with the big money signings. They ignore the blatant cheating that goes on. As long as the wins keep happening and the points keep rolling in. Just like our fans would be if the positions were reversed.
It’s very easy to ignore all of these things when you are guaranteed success, just as it is easy to be all sanctimonious when you aren’t.

Don't be daft if super rich arabs bought burnley & started behaving like man city owners would it be our fault, of course it wouldn't the fans have nothing to do with any significant decision making, collectively we have a voice but owners don't really listen, what do you expect people to do who have supported a club all their life's to do suddenly disassociate themselves from things, its unrealistic we wouldn't do it so why expect others, we are blaming the wrong people we should be blaming people higher up who have consistently let man city get away with alsorts for far too long.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

City got away with it because the PL didn't have proof, that changed with the leaks/hacked emails and that's when the PL went into action.

So it would appear the higher ups are now doing the right thing because they've got concrete proof that can be enacted upon.

[NottsClaret]

Hard to get wound up by it either way. It's only the 'Big 6' that should care. None of this will ever happen, but let's say City get relegated, Newcastle are barred from going down the same route, Chelsea get the same. That's all good, but it just gives us a return to the United/Arsenal/Liverpool/Spurs monopoly.

It's not like we're going to start seeing Ipswich or Derby win the league again. There's not going to be any move to a level playing field. Part of me agrees that yeah, it's not a good idea to let oil states buy our competitions, but it's the traditional 'old money' clubs who will really be pushing for this. And they'd happily watch everyone else live in poverty and smaller clubs go under once their natural order has been restored.

[Jakubclaret]

City got away with it because the PL didn't have proof, that changed with the leaks/hacked emails and that's when the PL went into action.

So it would appear the higher ups are now doing the right thing because they've got concrete proof that can be enacted upon.

The PL must have had doubts & been suspicious it sounds like man city have gone too far & now & the PL can't ignore it any longer & have to something rather than wanting something. To suggest the PL have been in the dark when they've started spending money like a fish gulps water is surprising. They might have proof & now can do something but it's not like man city have suddenly started to spend money so why the delay in investigating.

[Chester Perry]

Don't be daft if super rich arabs bought burnley & started behaving like man city owners would it be our fault, of course it wouldn't the fans have nothing to do with any significant decision making, collectively we have a voice but owners don't really listen, what do you expect people to do who have supported a club all their life's to do suddenly disassociate themselves from things, its unrealistic we wouldn't do it so why expect others, we are blaming the wrong people we should be blaming people higher up who have consistently let man city get away with alsorts for far too long.

fans can do much more than you think, as is regularly displayed in Germany

What we don't have in this country is enough fans to act on their principles and then argue it is because they support the team, all of which is a matter of choice so that is fine. What is not fine is arguing that fans cannot do something about the situation, they can.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

fans can do much more than you think, as is regularly displayed in Germany

What we don't have in this country is enough fans to act on their principles and then argue it is because they support the team, all of which is a matter of choice so that is fine. What is not fine is arguing that fans cannot do something about the situation, they can.

The fans acted about the Super League, that's probably one of the few times I can recall them doing something to stop something they don't like the idea of.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

The PL must have had doubts & been suspicious it sounds like man city have gone too far & now & the PL can't ignore it any longer & have to something rather than wanting something. To suggest the PL have been in the dark when they've started spending money like a fish gulps water is surprising. They might have proof & now can do something but it's not like man city have suddenly started to spend money so why the delay in investigating.

There was a delay because they couldn't prove it.
City literally paid Mancini a 2nd via another company for 4 days of coaching work per year, to top up his city earnings and ensure they met FFP rules etc.
The PL don't have the power to check where Mancini gets his money from as he's a private individual.

The PL had to wait for something to open up for them, to give them a way in, so they could start an investigation and then they took 4yrs to make sure their ducks were lined up before filing charges.

[WestMidsClaret]

Yes I read that. Has the Premier League got the will for this? Hiring a top Lawyer on £5000 / hour, as City have done, would suggest they are certainly guilty.

They could hire PPP for £9.90 per hour.

[Jakubclaret]

fans can do much more than you think, as is regularly displayed in Germany

What we don't have in this country is enough fans to act on their principles and then argue it is because they support the team, all of which is a matter of choice so that is fine. What is not fine is arguing that fans cannot do something about the situation, they can.

It can be applicable in certain circumstances, I don't see any hierarchy listening or beating down to submission by a few placards or complaining groans you need the weight in numbers, people listen when there's enough of you that stop spending money & it starts hurting, people lose confidence in the brand, if you think city fans were complicit in this or could have prevented what's happened we'll have to disagree I'm afraid. I want the PL to throw the book at man city & for them to receive a just punishment, when FFP first got introduced it meant something to the average fan that competition would be played out on a level playing field but I've yet to see any evidence that FFP makes any real difference, the gap isn't shortening it's getting wider, I personally think FFP is a waste of time because nothings really changed not noticeable anyhow, Chelsea & man city etc will still carry on signing players for ridiculous sums of money whilst the paupers scrape the barrel looking for bargain buys.

[Spijed]

Hard to get wound up by it either way. It's only the 'Big 6' that should care. None of this will ever happen, but let's say City get relegated, Newcastle are barred from going down the same route, Chelsea get the same. That's all good, but it just gives us a return to the United/Arsenal/Liverpool/Spurs monopoly.

It's not like we're going to start seeing Ipswich or Derby win the league again. There's not going to be any move to a level playing field. Part of me agrees that yeah, it's not a good idea to let oil states buy our competitions, but it's the traditional 'old money' clubs who will really be pushing for this. And they'd happily watch everyone else live in poverty and smaller clubs go under once their natural order has been restored.

Interesting thing about the 'Old' monopoly is that Everton were part of that club once upon a time.

[pushpinpussy]

They could hire PPP for £9.90 per hour.

Count me in

[Chester Perry]

Interesting thing about the 'Old' monopoly is that Everton were part of that club once upon a time.

Indeed, while Evertonians were disgusted by the launch of Super League 2 years ago they were even more disgusted with their board that they had fallen so low and the decline had gone on so long that they were not even considered worthy for an invite

- their older fans also acknowledge that the Mersey Millionaires used their owners wealth to their advantage back in the day

[Colburn_Claret]

La Liga manages to operate a wage/finance restriction quite well as shown by Barca having to get it's act together in recent years.

It's English fans who seem to think that something similar isn't fair/can't be done/goes against competition rules blah blah blah.

La Liga are much more vociferous, and much more proactive, in trying to curb Real and Barca, than our own FA. It finally stirred itself out of its slumber when the ESL last raised its ugly head, but next to nothing since. The charges aimed at City being a hell of a long time in coming. It looks as though they only get concerned when their own gravy train is threatened.

It's time it started to put the brakes on now, before it goes too far, by laying down some rules.
There is no way that English teams can compete in the ESL, and stay part of the pyramid.
There is no way that the size of the league is going to be reduced, so that those left behind would play fewer games, get even less revenue, so that the the greedy few can play extra games on the continent.
There is no way that English footballers, who leave the umbrella of the FA, will be allowed to represent their country at international level.


What sickens me most with all of this, is that it is only happening because Barcelona can't compete with the Chelseas and Man Citys of European football. They have run their club so badly, that they are in hock up to their eyeballs, and they see this as an easy way out. What the absolute @rseholes don't grasp, is that even with the extra income a ESL may generate, they still won't be able to compete with Chelsea or Man City. There is nothing in this world that bridges that gap. In fact the only thing that could help them, is buying into a system of FFP, that would drag the likes of Chelea and City back towards them.

[gandhisflipflop]

La Liga are much more vociferous, and much more proactive, in trying to curb Real and Barca, than our own FA. It finally stirred itself out of its slumber when the ESL last raised its ugly head, but next to nothing since. The charges aimed at City being a hell of a long time in coming. It looks as though they only get concerned when their own gravy train is threatened.

It's time it started to put the brakes on now, before it goes too far, by laying down some rules.
There is no way that English teams can compete in the ESL, and stay part of the pyramid.
There is no way that the size of the league is going to be reduced, so that those left behind would play fewer games, get even less revenue, so that the the greedy few can play extra games on the continent.
There is no way that English footballers, who leave the umbrella of the FA, will be allowed to represent their country at international level.


What sickens me most with all of this, is that it is only happening because Barcelona can't compete with the Chelseas and Man Citys of European football. They have run their club so badly, that they are in hock up to their eyeballs, and they see this as an easy way out. What the absolute @rseholes don't grasp, is that even with the extra income a ESL may generate, they still won't be able to compete with Chelsea or Man City. There is nothing in this world that bridges that gap. In fact the only thing that could help them, is buying into a system of FFP, that would drag the likes of Chelea and City back towards them.

Don’t forget Real Madrid too. They are THE club that started all this snowballing of transfer fees for me

[Bosscat]

IMG-20230209-WA0001.jpg (75.78 KiB) Viewed 515 times

[bfcjg]

0_GettyImages-82803002.jpg (49.85 KiB) Viewed 493 times

Not gloating now.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

I would agree with this entirely but the problem is I can’t see it happening. The ‘club’ is innocent, it’s the owners that are guilty, which is why I always have difficulty with points deductions etc. There is the club as an entity, there are the fans and there are the owners and only one is guilty. They should be severely punished.

Yes that is what i am saying your idea was a good one, ive been discussing this with other people and i think its the fairest way to deal with it. Return the club to where it was before these cheating gits got in which i believe was a mid table club without exorbitant wealth. They are the most plastic club going now makes me nauseas watching them with every player bought for £50m + from the tv it seems.

If the premier league want to clean their league up they should make an example of them and ban the owners from holding and owning the club, how easy that is I dont know. A whole nation should not be able to own a football club and hyper inflate the transfer market such as this lot and PSG, its not what its about, its supposed to be about finding bargains and putting a team together as Kompany ironically is doing here.

[Chester Perry]

That might help on the investigation side but it appears that if the Premier League get this procedurally right (given they believe they have sufficient damning evidence, courtesy of Football Leaks and subsequently having their the courts - right up to the high Court- back their demands for further information from City/CFG) then it is down to proving their case. Of course American courts can get pretty tough on fines and jail time, but such legal cases may also apply in this country if the Premier League wins, because that will mean a decade of illegal filings at Companies House.

A point emphasised in a report today by Miguel Delaney in The Independent could eventually see criminal charges brought against the Manchester City Directors if the Premier League wins its case. Where such a trial may be could end up being based on where the funds were transferred to, via and from

Man City scandal is not about fair play – it’s about fraud
The Premier League’s bombshell case against Manchester City goes beyond rules of Financial Fair Play and is really about allegations of dishonesty
https://archive.is/gBZ8M

[houseboy]

The club "Man City" has been transformed completely from what it once was, due to THAT money. You have completely ignored the fact that the fans of Man City are enjoying the ride with dodgy money , something they know all about. Once the owners have left the Etihad stadium will still be there, as will a state of the are training complex, along with all those PL titles Man City have won.

Absolutely. But you cant change the past. You can only affect the future. Punish the owners, with that I have no problem, but not the fans. They may have benefitted from it but they would still have been there had the money not come along, just as they were in the old third division and second division. They are loyal whatever the state of play off the field.

[bfcjg]

Reading the link CP put on I would imagine a few clubs with benefactors will be worried, Newcastle might not become the force they hoped they'd be if rules are enforced.