Sunderland down

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:22 pm

No worries though - not many there to witness it at the end, the stadium had emptied again.

Typical of their season. They were 1-0 up against Burton but then went 2-1 down in last four minutes before having a goal disallowed.

Elder statesman · Post by **Elder statesman** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:23 pm

A nice trip to Accy next season.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:26 pm

Not mathematically. 6 points behind with 2 games remaining (and a better goal difference than Bolton).

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:29 pm

FactualFrank wrote:Not mathematically. 6 points behind with 2 games remaining (and a better goal difference than Bolton).

That's what I saw when I looked at the table. They could miraculously escape?

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:29 pm

No, Frank, they're down.
I thought the same, but Bolton play Burton so one of em will pick up points. Confirmed on five live.

yTib · Post by **yTib** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:37 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43762308" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

a mighty big club for the third tier.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:38 pm

ElectroClaret wrote:No, Frank, they're down.
I thought the same, but Bolton play Burton so one of em will pick up points. Confirmed on five live.

Ahhhhh... I'll hold my hands up, I didn't take that into account, as I didn't expect they'd be playing eachother. When you don't know the fixtures, and take into account there's 24 teams in the division, you kinda guess on the odds that those two wouldn't still have to play eachother. Fair enough.

One of my best pals is a Sunderland fan and he actually said last season he thought they'd be relegated twice.

cutsy123 · Post by **cutsy123** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:45 pm

Good. They are crap

They will slowly disappear

yTib · Post by **yTib** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:47 pm

cutsy123 wrote:Good. They are crap

They will slowly disappear

i strongly suspect they will be back in the prem within five years.

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:48 pm

Burton were four minutes from relegation.
Remarkable.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:52 pm

FactualFrank wrote:Not mathematically. 6 points behind with 2 games remaining (and a better goal difference than Bolton).

Yes mathematically if you look at the remaining fixtures

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:55 pm

yTib wrote:i strongly suspect they will be back in the prem within five years.

There will have to be big changes. They have a disinterested owner who can’t sell the club which is now over £110m in debt. Serious mess.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:57 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Yes mathematically if you look at the remaining fixtures

Already covered above.

yTib · Post by **yTib** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:57 pm

ClaretTony wrote:There will have to be big changes. They have a disinterested owner who can’t sell the club which is now over £110m in debt. Serious mess.

if i was a chinese investor with money to burn sunderland would be my golden goose.

the potential of that club is massive.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:00 pm

yTib wrote:i strongly suspect they will be back in the prem within five years.

I strongly suspect they'll be crippled by their wage bill, because they've overpaid players and have no relegation clauses inserted.
An owner who wants out etc.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:01 pm

ClaretTony wrote:There will have to be big changes. They have a disinterested owner who can’t sell the club which is now over £110m in debt. Serious mess.

Last I saw it was closer to £150 million of debt.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:05 pm

yTib wrote:if i was a chinese investor with money to burn sunderland would be my golden goose.

the potential of that club is massive.

People say that. But its a grim area with no success for sometime. No top, top players would ever want to go there.

cutsy123 · Post by **cutsy123** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:05 pm

They wont see the prem for another 20

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:09 pm

They've also been very unlucky. Think back to how many injuries they had when they were in the Premier League. Literally around half of their squad was injured. They were fielding players who should have been nowhere near their first team. That was the catalyst, as they went down, players left and the rest is history. But they were incredibly unlucky with their injury list. It makes ours during the season look like a scraped knee.

yTib · Post by **yTib** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:09 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:People say that. But its a grim area with no success for sometime. No top, top players would ever want to go there.

no top, top player would ever want to go to bournemouth. even on holiday.

but that club will be available for a poundland price now and are easily capable of 40k+ crowds.

they'll be back.

Woonderbah · Post by **Woonderbah** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:09 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:People say that. But its a grim area with no success for sometime. No top, top players would ever want to go there.

Why bring Blackburn into it ?

yTib · Post by **yTib** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:11 pm

and by the way people say burnley is grim. a short drive and you're in some of the nicest country side in britain. sunderland is exactly the same. the durham dales are stunning..

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:24 pm

Shockingly run club for a few years now and this is the result. Di Canio, Poyet, Big Dik and Fat Sam all just about kept them up. Last year’s relegation was inevitable. They were dreadful. Not for one minute did I think they would have a good season in the Championship but I didn’t expect them to go down again. I thought Grayson might have been a decent appointment. For the life of me I can’t understand why anyone would appoint Coleman.

I think they are too big to go down again but they will have to make some big changes to start turning this round.

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:34 pm

I think more than likely they'll do a Rovers and come straight back up, only because the standard is terrible
in League One.
The Championship, though, is a different animal......
.....as hopefully the Deadwood boys will find out.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:38 pm

They have been there before but without the burden of a huge debt.

Will take some rebuilding there.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:13 pm

FactualFrank wrote:They've also been very unlucky. Think back to how many injuries they had when they were in the Premier League. Literally around half of their squad was injured. They were fielding players who should have been nowhere near their first team. That was the catalyst, as they went down, players left and the rest is history. But they were incredibly unlucky with their injury list. It makes ours during the season look like a scraped knee.

Think there was more than a few of those who were choosing to be injured, but yes it was quite some Ward's worth. Got a lot of time for Sunderland, sad to see them go down. As mentioned above there is no Guarantee that they'll bounce back this time. Though with Coleman staying they should still have enough to pull in the better free's his summer.

Longsidelenny · Post by **Longsidelenny** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:18 pm

Very sad day for Sunderland and football in general but spare a thought for their silly manager packs in a good job with wales then takes over at Sunderland ask yourself why or then again it could be for the money he is gonna get when the sack comes is way oh dear

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:51 pm

Longsidelenny wrote:and football in general

Why?
What right have they got to be above clubs like Accrington?

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:02 pm

elwaclaret wrote:As mentioned above there is no Guarantee that they'll bounce back this time. Though with Coleman staying they should still have enough to pull in the better free's his summer.

They've changed manager far too often in recent years but for once I think they need to. Coleman, for me, was a shocking appointment and I can't see them having any success at all with him in charge - unless he can persuade Aaron Ramsey and Gareth Bale to sign for Sunderland.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:44 pm

ClaretTony wrote:They've changed manager far too often in recent years but for once I think they need to. Coleman, for me, was a shocking appointment and I can't see them having any success at all with him in charge - unless he can persuade Aaron Ramsey and Gareth Bale to sign for Sunderland.

I think his first job is to persuade Jack Rodwell and Lee Cattermole to sign for anyone else but Sunderland! Especially Rodwell, believed to be "earning" £70k per week - they didn't give him a relegation clause.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:06 am

Spijed wrote:Why?
What right have they got to be above clubs like Accrington?

I'm glad someone asked this question.
There is no right, nor do they deserve to be.

I'm sure someone will spout the usual guff about how amazing their fans are and the alleged potential etc, but that stuff doesn't determine a clubs league position.

LeadBelly · Post by **LeadBelly** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:13 am

Daily Telegraph did a decent write up on Sunderland's plight recently https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... ar-demise/
Rodwell's 5-year £70k per week contract (with no relegation clause), whilst he barely plays is a symptom of some very bad management.

They have to hope Short doesn't call in the debt. They also need to get realistic about where they are and cut cloth accordingly and try to slowly work back up. There's no easy solution & it may take a few years to start the upward swing.
.

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:39 am

You are where you are. Size is reduced by debt. Footballers and their agents plus naive\incompetent owners create these problems. Hopefully Burnley's braindeads will now lay of the board and the cringing desire to bring in a foreign investor.

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:42 am

Sidney1st wrote:..
. but that stuff doesn't determine a clubs league position.

Absolutely spot on.

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:43 am

Spijed wrote:Why?
What right have they got to be above clubs like Accrington?

None whatsoever.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:44 am

Was walking away from the stadium of light last season after our 0.0 draw with them. 2 or 3 blokes grumbling about how "we should be beating tin pot clubs like Burnley"

It'll be bloody awful following my "tin pot" outfit round Europe next year as those very same lads look forward to hosting Accy ( no disrespect to Stanley what so ever. They were my granddads team!)

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:05 am

Don't dislike Sunderland and they have good fans but I am pleased as I had a season long bet on them to go down. Didn't know it was confirmed until this thread. They were hopeless last year and looked like a bunch of disinterested mercenaries that Moyes then sucked further life out of. I didn't give them much hope this season.

Quicknick · Post by **Quicknick** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:10 am

yTib wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43762308

a mighty big club for the third tier.

Not the first time.

ashtonlongsider · Post by **ashtonlongsider** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:12 am

Yes a real shame but hardly unexpected. Roots and Branches approach needed or else I can possibly see Sunderland going to the wall. Too quick a change of manager and parting with a talent like Grayson way to early before he got his teeth into the job.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:58 am

yTib wrote:and by the way people say burnley is grim. a short drive and you're in some of the nicest country side in britain. sunderland is exactly the same. the durham dales are stunning..

Agree. But try telling a 20 odd year old millionaire footballer. He wants london or manchester.

claretblue · Post by **claretblue** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:02 am

ClaretTony wrote: unless he can persuade Aaron Ramsey and Gareth Bale to sign for Sunderland.

...and Brian Fynn!

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:15 am

i do find it staggering to think of a club with that fanbase dropping down again . Losing premier league status is bad enough, but to continue the decline is incredible.

Lord Beamish · Post by **Lord Beamish** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:27 am

Leeds, Sheffield Utd, Sheffield Weds, Nottm Forest, Norwich City, Southampton, and Wolves. All Ex-Prem regulars who have all been down in the Third Tier in the last decade or so. Football is no respecter of these Club’s idea of where they should fit within the Firmament of the Game. Sunderland must take their medicine and learn from their mistakes. They’ve been living on borrowed time and good fortune for far too long. Time to rebuild with solid foundations; look for the next Peter Reid to reawaken the Sleeping Giant.

LeadBelly · Post by **LeadBelly** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:42 am

I found a very sobering article about their finances/debt/prospects here http://www.true-faith.co.uk/sunderland- ... no-future/

I hadn't realised that a chunk of the debt was to a third party: £69 million debt is to Short but they also have a £70 million loan from Security Bank Corporation who charge 7.5%+Libor (10% in total?). This 2nd loan is repayable in August 2019 evidently.

Not much chance of repaying that so either Short has to dig deep again to take that on himself or they have to refinance- at presumably even higher rates of interest (much bigger risk now they are not in the Prem).
Vicious circle they are in, hard times ahead.

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:41 am

Nothing against Sunderland, know a few lads up there who are mates of a mate and have had some good away days up there (barring the football which has usually been gash and the very limited number of decent pubs).

But even after their horror show of a season last year I doubt anyone would've believed they'd lose at home to Burton to confirm relegation.

mickleoverclaret · Post by **mickleoverclaret** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:47 am

I thought the way they conducted themselves over the Adam Johnson affair was scandalous. Feel for the fans (always a great bunch when i've been) but couldn't happen to a more deserving club as far as i'm concerned.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:48 am

ashtonlongsider wrote:Yes a real shame but hardly unexpected. Roots and Branches approach needed or else I can possibly see Sunderland going to the wall. Too quick a change of manager and parting with a talent like Grayson way to early before he got his teeth into the job.

I've missed the sarcasm here haven't I?

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:50 am

How long do the parachute payments last and how much are they worth?

I suppose if Short can offload the club and writes off the debt owed to him there is some cash to gamble with to get back up.

Once the parachute money runs out they could be completely rubber ducked.

LeadBelly · Post by **LeadBelly** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:41 pm

"How long do the parachute payments last and how much are they worth?"

My understanding is that clubs which spent more than 1 season up get 55%, 45%, 20% of their final year's Prem (TV-based) earnings over next 3 seasons (clubs only up 1 year get paid 55%, 40% then nowt).
Looks like Sunderland earned £93m last season so presumably get/got c £50m this season then will get c £42m then c. £18.5 m.

Their gate money and sponsorship income will both also be badly hit. At least (I understand) they can cut Jack Rodwell's wages next year from over £3m to c £2 million (for sitting on his jacksie).

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:12 pm

LeadBelly wrote:"How long do the parachute payments last and how much are they worth?"

My understanding is that clubs which spent more than 1 season up get 55%, 45%, 20% of their final year's Prem (TV-based) earnings over next 3 seasons (clubs only up 1 year get paid 55%, 40% then nowt).
Looks like Sunderland earned £93m last season so presumably get/got c £50m this season then will get c £42m then c. £18.5 m.

Their gate money and sponsorship income will both also be badly hit. At least (I understand) they can cut Jack Rodwell's wages next year from over £3m to c £2 million (for sitting on his jacksie).

£42m in league one before other income is a huge amount of money but I guess servicing debts and paying wages (if they can't offload big earners) will wipe it out.

As I said, if Short cuts his losses and sells up they have a chance, otherwise the future looks very bleak.