"Alternative Facts"

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:09 pm

This term entered the political lexicon today and i wondered what your thoughts on it are.

It appears that the term means anything someone says that is entirely contradicted by evidence that can be put right in front of your eyes and then claims that they're still right.

Cajun · Post by **Cajun** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:51 pm

All entitled to our own different opinions, mine on this is: I worked in the news media for 35 years, a couple as a PR and Press Officer, and although I witnessed some bizarre news conferences over the years I never saw anything quite as stunning as Spicer's rant on behalf of Trump's ego on Saturday = followed up by Conway's delusional creation of this new dimension today. "Alternative facts" (and Spicer's rapid exit from the briefing without having the nerve to face responses) means we must believe what we are told by our government superiors without question... Its typical of the Trump "I'm right because I'm right, you are wrong because you are wrong; I am right because I am me; you are wrong because you are you" jaw-jutting mentality that reminds me of the "Trunchpole" character in the movie "Matilda." I really think that within a day or two there will be some poll that shows the majority of Trump supporters believe the comparable photos of Trump's inauguration crowds taken at the same time as those for Obama, or even Reagan, are "fake news". I happened to watch a segment on the one-eyed rightwing Fox News today, if you ever want to see coverage that is totally slanted and distorted, there you go.
We are 2 days on from the inauguration, and already the Trump administration is an embarrassment to the country I live in. Even since the election, He and his appointees have shown themselves to be merely a bunch of petty, petulant, whining crybabies; we have a leader who is a pathological liar who through living in his own warped reality is going to pose massive dangers to both global stability and the global environment - which is why this election has implications for GB . His pathetic behavior puts us all at risk, yet his team will always conjure up "alternative facts" to dispute whatever situation Trump takes exception to. This is the way of the dictator. Far from being great, Trump is turning the US into a panto farce.
The peaceful demonstrations throughout the US and the world yesterday will get under Trump's skin and increase the chances of his meltdown and early exit.
Just my individual opinion

Holmeclaret · Post by **Holmeclaret** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:58 pm

Lies presented as truth when all the evidence contradicts. Heading towards 1984 doublethink but it's not just corrupt leaders who are responsible for this. It's also the millions who will only listen to what they want to hear and also those who let them get away with it as long as it doesn't directly affect them.

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:01 pm

The fact that they are getting so upset on a meaningless issue like crowds is certainly a worry.
What are they going to be like in important situations.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:08 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote:The fact that they are getting so upset on a meaningless issue like crowds is certainly a worry.
What are they going to be like in important situations.

And if they'll lie to our faces when it's this obvious they're lying, imagine what they'll lie about when the public can't verify what they're saying?

Claretmatt4 · Post by **Claretmatt4** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:10 pm

First time I've heard 1984 mentioned in this political **** storm.

Potentially not far of the mark. Scary

john'sroseyspecs · Post by **john'sroseyspecs** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:24 pm

A true Party member could automatically and without thought expunge any "incorrect" information and neatly replace it with "true" information. Done properly, there would be no recollection of the "incorrect" information. 1984. In 2017!

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:35 pm

Plasticine w@nker.

Claretmatt4 · Post by **Claretmatt4** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:43 pm

Reminds me of a good song by Thrice about 1984...

"I drug my heart with doublespeak,
All my misgivings disappear.
It helps to keep my conscience clean.
(The ends will justify the means,)
But still I’m always careful what I hear.

I don’t wanna know who really pulls the strings,
Just as long as it’s not you or me.

There’s a jackboot toe tap keeping time,
while the children dance and play.
Honey, if you think you’ve seen a crime,
you just look the other way.

I slowly carve my soul away.
Piece by piece I sacrifice.
To comfort and peace of mind
(I keep my toes on the party line.)
There’s nothing wrong dear, don’t think twice.

I don’t wanna know who really pulls the strings,
Just as long as it’s not you or me.

There’s a jackboot toe tap keeping time,
while the children dance and play.
Honey, if you think you’ve seen a crime,
won't you look the other way."

Chobulous · Post by **Chobulous** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:37 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:This term entered the political lexicon today and i wondered what your thoughts on it are.

It appears that the term means anything someone says that is entirely contradicted by evidence that can be put right in front of your eyes and then claims that they're still right.

Is there an irony emoticon?

HiroshimaClaret · Post by **HiroshimaClaret** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:32 am

The `in Dyche we trust` brigade have been living and breathing the stuff since Day 1 on UpTheClarets.com

Burnley Ace · Post by **Burnley Ace** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:36 am

Bordeauxclaret wrote:The fact that they are getting so upset on a meaningless issue like crowds is certainly a worry.
What are they going to be like in important situations.

Has no one sat down with him and explained the concept of pj king your fights? One of his spokesman was trying to laugh off his spats with Streep and SNL by explaining that Trump was a New Yorker and they never dodge a fight! He's POTUS acting like a boy King!

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:42 am

Listening to the American news coverage and the attempts by the Trump administration members to justify it was actually, genuinely terrifying.

They don't care that they know its not the truth, they know that if they keep saying it, then enough people will believe it.

Thats not good, whichever way you look at it

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:50 am

The press conference (if you can even call it that) with Sean Spicer over the weekend was absolutely jaw dropping.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:56 am

A mixture of Joseph Goebbels and Chemical Ali, with more than a whiff of "we can ignore you you know" thrown in.

Cirrus_Minor · Post by **Cirrus_Minor** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:10 am

My first reaction was to laugh out loud but then I shuddered when I realised that this could be the beginning of how the regime is going to operate.

Bacchus · Post by **Bacchus** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:00 pm

Isn't it all just the old 'dead cat' play? Trump's speech at the CIA & Spicer's press conference were surely rehearsed and planned 'set pieces' designed purely to distract from what they didn't wan't people to talk about. Trump's outrageous ego just makes this play all the easier to pull off - get him to Tweet or say something controversial, wait for it to kick off, slide another executive order through while nobody is looking.

It will be interesting to what happens when Trump / his team have to think on their feet in a fast moving scenario. I suspect that's when bombastic controversy and calculated misinformation will be replaced by obvious incompetence.

KeighleyClaret · Post by **KeighleyClaret** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:21 pm

HiroshimaClaret wrote:The `in Dyche we trust` brigade have been living and breathing the stuff since Day 1 on UpTheClarets.com

What complete and utter tosh.

bluelabrador16 · Post by **bluelabrador16** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:17 pm

I can think of loads of "Alternative Facts" that the "Western mainstream media" has fed the people about Syria.
It is sad that so many posters on here swallow up the propaganda.

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:18 pm

As oppose to the bullshit you swallow and then spread

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:21 pm

List em bluelab.

Going through a very disorganised set of receipts, so ANYTHING will be better than that!

bluelabrador16 · Post by **bluelabrador16** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:21 pm

Have I hit a raw nerve Claretdumb?

IWOODLOVETT · Post by **IWOODLOVETT** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:26 pm

I've never seen a blue Labrador but you would have us believe that they exist.

bluelabrador16 · Post by **bluelabrador16** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:53 pm

Lancasterclaret

The heroic "Syria Civil Defence" who were nominated for a nobel peace prize....

Drum Roll....

"The White Helmets"

"Founded in 2013, the White Helmets, officially called the Syria Civil Defense, are often the only emergency first-responders available in rebel-held areas of Syria and claim to have saved more than 58,000 lives.” ~ The Slate

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:59 pm

Is the bluelabrador helmet a splinter group ?

biggles · Post by **biggles** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:21 pm

1. politics has always been about lies.

2. the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth is the only truth.

3. selective reporting has always been around.

4. perspective matters [as does context].

try these statements "burnley have won 8 games" and "burnley have lost 12 games". both are accurate, both give alternative facts. some people will only believe the first statement, some the second.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:31 pm

biggles wrote:
try these statements "burnley have won 8 games" and "burnley have lost 12 games". both are accurate, both give alternative facts. some people will only believe the first statement, some the second.

Those aren't alternative facts, they're not mutually exclusive, and neither is wrong. What Conway is suggesting is that falsehoods are "alternative facts". For example, Spicer said Trump's inauguration crown was the biggest ever, which is clearly, observably false. That's like saying Burnley have won all their games this season and then Conway coming on here and saying that it's an alternative fact that Burnley have won all their games.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:44 pm

I see no mention of Zionist pigs on that poster.

Missing a trick your mates there

biggles · Post by **biggles** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:49 pm

turtle - you are right. however,,,,,,, who knows what to believe in the great scheme of things? all statements in the media have to be taken with a pinch of salt. i didn't use a great example, above, [off the cuff remark, as it was]. i was trying to make the point that stories can be written, containing only facts, but when read can lead to a different conclusion due to which facts were not only included but which were [purposefully?] excluded.

bluelabrador16 · Post by **bluelabrador16** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:50 pm

Lancasterclaret

You do come over as a sad ignorant ****!

biggles · Post by **biggles** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:52 pm

maybe i'm talking about 'manipulation of the facts' rather than this new-fangled 'alternative facts' stuff. it's still lies.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:55 pm

Bluelab, I unfortunately have (just) enough knowledge of the geography and history of the area to spot the huge, gargantuan gaps in logic and facts in 99% of your posts.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:57 pm

Like about 50% of UK the population, I'll only believe this stuff that Trump's team report if I read it in either the Sun, the Mail or the Daily Express.

bluelabrador16 · Post by **bluelabrador16** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:00 pm

Lancasterclaret

Bluelab, I unfortunately have (just) enough knowledge of the geography and history of the area to spot the huge, gargantuan gaps in logic and facts in 99% of your posts.

Keep dreaming!

You have regularly shown to me you know SFA!

Any comment on "the White Helmets".

MrTopTier · Post by **MrTopTier** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:05 pm

Alternative facts are just made up sh it, any one can do it.
My favourite one today is that there is to be a vaccine for fake news.

Guich · Post by **Guich** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:07 pm

Bacchus wrote:Isn't it all just the old 'dead cat' play? Trump's speech at the CIA & Spicer's press conference were surely rehearsed and planned 'set pieces' designed purely to distract from what they didn't wan't people to talk about. Trump's outrageous ego just makes this play all the easier to pull off - get him to Tweet or say something controversial, wait for it to kick off, slide another executive order through while nobody is looking.

It will be interesting to what happens when Trump / his team have to think on their feet in a fast moving scenario. I suspect that's when bombastic controversy and calculated misinformation will be replaced by obvious incompetence.

I think Bacchus has a point here. Politicians have always lied, but this is different because it's comically absurd. I prefer it to Alastair Campbell's spin.

But if Bacchus is wrong I'll join the 'mildly concerned but not yet terrified' gang.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:17 pm

Still claiming that the Ukrainian famine in the 30s was a "Zionist plot" you utter loon?

LongsideFacingUp · Post by **LongsideFacingUp** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:21 pm

Does is bother any of you that CNN, NYT and others reported that Trump's inauguration crowd was small and used pictures from hours before the actual event?

Inauguration crowd image widely used by media:https://media.guim.co.uk/bedb5bf207688a ... 92/933.jpg

vs

Megapixel camera as Trump is sworn in: http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2017 ... gigapixel/

Quite clearly a much bigger crowd in the second photo.

Is that not an 'alternative fact'?

Or do they only count when it suits your ideology?

Hipper · Post by **Hipper** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:35 pm

I must admit I'm not liking what is happening to our collective thought processes generally.

Because some leaders have ignored our wishes or deceived us, we now no longer accept expert views and seem to have become more rebellious. We have forgotten the adage that 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing'.

Perhaps this is all to do with the rise of the individual since 'The Enlightenment' and more recently, easy access to vast amounts of knowledge via the internet.

grapidianclaret · Post by **grapidianclaret** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:46 pm

bluelabrador16 wrote:Keep dreaming!

You have regularly shown to me you know SFA!

Any comment on "the White Helmets".

I have a helmet exactly like that , except its purple and it has a hole in the top.

MrTopTier · Post by **MrTopTier** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:47 pm

I am with you there Hipper.
However when Gov'ts use alternative facts, say for example 'Weapons of Mass Destruction' it is no wonder that people stop believing in expert views.

CnBtruntru · Post by **CnBtruntru** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:56 pm

biggles wrote:1. politics has always been about lies.

2. the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth is the only truth.

3. selective reporting has always been around.

4. perspective matters [as does context].

try these statements "burnley have won 8 games" and "burnley have lost 12 games". both are accurate, both give alternative facts. some people will only believe the first statement, some the second.

Hang on, two of those we played Arsenal and were Robbed, don't believe it anyway you didn't use a capital B in Burnley!

CnBtruntru · Post by **CnBtruntru** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:57 pm

I hate Politics the work of the devil.

bluelabrador16 · Post by **bluelabrador16** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:49 pm

Lancasterclaret

Gareth Jones Diary Notes relating to Soviet Ukraine Famine 1932-33

http://www.colley.co.uk/garethjones/sov ... _diary.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is the first academic study of Gareth Jones, now recognized as one of the first journalists to reveal the horror of the Holodomor, the Soviet Government-induced famine in the early 1930s, which killed millions of Ukrainians.

On Holodomor denial, and fisking a denialist Russian professor of History

"..Distinguished scholars including Andrea Graziosi, Norman Naimark, Timothy Snyder, Nicolas Werth and Liudmyla Hrynevych have established beyond any doubt that the Holodomor was indeed genocidal.Raphael Lemkin, the Polish Jewish lawyer, who is credited with “creating” the word “genocide” defines the Ukrainian famine as a genocide:

“This is not simply a case of mass murder. It is a case of genocide, of destruction, not of individuals only, but of a culture and a nation. If it were possible to do this even without suffering we would still be driven to condemn it, for the family of minds, the unity of ideas, of language and of customs that form what we call a nation that constitutes one of the most important of all our means of civilization and progress.”-Raphael Lemkin[/b]

http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/12/17/o ... #arvlbdata" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

New Book To Highlight 'Well Managed Cover-Up' Of Ukrainian Famine

"Holodomor," the man-made famine that killed millions of Ukrainians in the early 1930s, will be the subject of a new book by acclaimed U.S. journalist and author Anne Applebaum.

http://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-holodomo ... 76662.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"..In 2006, Ukraine's parliament classified the Holodomor as genocide...."

Journalist Gareth Jones' 1935 murder examined by BBC Four By Neil Prior

Gareth Jones was a talented linguist, speaking French, German and Russian
A Welsh journalist who once flew with Adolf Hitler, helped expose genocide in Joseph Stalin's Soviet Union and died in mysterious circumstances, is the subject of a new TV documentary

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-sout ... s-18691109" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:52 pm

LongsideFacingUp wrote:Does is bother any of you that CNN, NYT and others reported that Trump's inauguration crowd was small and used pictures from hours before the actual event?

Inauguration crowd image widely used by media:https://media.guim.co.uk/bedb5bf207688a ... 92/933.jpg

vs

Megapixel camera as Trump is sworn in: http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2017 ... gigapixel/

Quite clearly a much bigger crowd in the second photo.

Is that not an 'alternative fact'?

Or do they only count when it suits your ideology?

First of all they didn't say it was a small attendance, only that it was smaller than Obama's. And second, you're wrong about the difference in the times of day. There are a number of photos taken from the direction of the Washington monument throughout the morning and there's ever a time-lapse video of the whole day which shows at no point did Trump get anywhere near Obama's attendance.

But hey, keep up the "biased mainstream media" narrative if you want because I'm sure we're all wrong and that Trump actually is the most honest politician in history.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:57 pm

Still nothing on a Zionist plot, which is what you claim.

I'm not disagreeing that it could be constituted as "genocide" btw, but that is completely ignoring the impact of the Soviet "Five Year" Industrial plan, and the Soviets were no friends of the Jews.

I don't have a problem with you calling it "genocide", just trying to link it to Zionists.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:58 pm

biggles wrote:turtle - you are right. however,,,,,,, who knows what to believe in the great scheme of things? all statements in the media have to be taken with a pinch of salt. i didn't use a great example, above, [off the cuff remark, as it was]. i was trying to make the point that stories can be written, containing only facts, but when read can lead to a different conclusion due to which facts were not only included but which were [purposefully?] excluded.

There's nothing wrong with thinking what the press say should be taken with a pinch of salt but it's what you then have to do is simply verify what they're saying. But too many people decide not to bother checking facts and instead decide that because they don't trust a source then what they say must be wrong.

LongsideFacingUp · Post by **LongsideFacingUp** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:07 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:First of all they didn't say it was a small attendance, only that it was smaller than Obama's. And second, you're wrong about the difference in the times of day. There are a number of photos taken from the direction of the Washington monument throughout the morning and there's ever a time-lapse video of the whole day which shows at no point did Trump get anywhere near Obama's attendance.

But hey, keep up the "biased mainstream media" narrative if you want because I'm sure we're all wrong and that Trump actually is the most honest politician in history.

Idealogue it is then.

bluelabrador16 · Post by **bluelabrador16** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:34 pm

Lancasterclarets

"..I don't have a problem with you calling it "genocide", just trying to link it to Zionists..."

I referred to the term "Bolsheviks" in connection to the Holdomer. I have no idea how many of the Bolsheviks involved with the "genocide" wanted a Jewish only state.

"...Probably the best-known exposé of the Jewish role in the Bolshevik coup d’état was by Sir Winston Churchill, writing in the Illustrated Sunday Herald of 8 February 1920. Churchill wrote “With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of leading figures are Jews. Moreover the principal inspiration and the driving power comes from Jewish leaders.”

By 1932/33, the numbers who wanted a Jewish only state "may" have increased. The following articles may help:

History of the Cheka – NKVD – KGB – FSB

http://www.systemaspetsnaz.com/history- ... gb-kgb-fsb" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Stalin's Jews...We mustn't forget that some of the greatest murderers of modern times were Jewish. ...Sever Plocker

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 99,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not all Jews are Zionists!

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:43 pm

But the Soviet system was very anti-Jew.

I just don't get why you think the industrial/internal policies of Stalin are somehow something to do with Jews, especially as thousands (or even millions) of them died in the famine as well.

I mean, I did Soviet Russia between the wars at Uni. It was before glasnost and perestroika (just about) but the sources are pretty clear about the central state role in industrialising USSR caused the catastrophic famine of the '30s