Disabled Seating - Is the Utd Solution a good one

[Chester Perry]

Just read

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/201 ... -disabled/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

very positive for the disabled supporters - yet 2600 current season ticket holders will lose their seats forever to facilitate this - that's right capacity will be reduced by just over 2300 seats forever - it is not like they don't sell all their legally allowed season tickets at the moment is it?

Is this really the only way to meet legislation? -

I would expect that United can sell all those seats but as a business I would look at the numbers and cough a little

[MACCA]

We could accommodate and keep dry plenty of disabled fans without much if any redunction in capacity.

It's just a case of meetig the rules and regulations then finding the finance.

Our club will have to justify the financial cost some how.

[IAmAClaret]

Find the finance? We've got it, it seems we just don't want to spend it in this way.

[Sidney1st]

We have to have something started by later this year don't we, or we get fined/punished?

It isn't rocket science and there's usually enough space/empty seats near the corner flag in both the JM and JH stands where the club could put something permanent in place.

I understand it's possibly a little more difficult in the older stadiums, but still....

[Chester Perry]

Macca - not relating to our club though current open positions are horrendous - for us the financial justification is easy (and easier to take on top tier TV money) - it is an operational constraint forced by legislation and as you say we have the capacity to add without impact

The Utd solution takes seats away (probably very good ones) from long standing supporters at a ratio of almost 8 for 1 - the question is that a good solution for everybody

[whentheballmoves]

Not as simple as I sounds!

We get a year longer I believe, and if we dropped out of the PL, unsure what would happen with any requirements.

Secondly, EVERY stand would need to be equally accessible to disabled and able bodied people alike, meaning quite a lot of work and the potential for moving ST holders too...

[bf2k]

I think its fantastic what Utd are doing. What's 2600 season tickets out of 70'odd thousand? The current disabled facility at old Trafford is pretty good (albeit only seen on a stadium tour).

I heard that we are demolishing the police box and building a new one (I take it that will have to be done in pre-season). I don't know why this couldn't have been done along with the new ticket office/club shop build by filling in the corner of the Jimmy Mc & Bob Lord. An undercover disabled section could have been put above the police box or additional seating and disabled seating in the Bob Lord, for example.

[Chester Perry]

Sidney - my understanding is that legislation would mean Disabled supporters get access to the same viewing options as able bodied - in that way we will have to offer more than seats in the corners

[Chester Perry]

[quote="bf2k"]I think its fantastic what Utd are doing. What's 2600 season tickets out of 70'odd thousand? The current disabled facility at old Trafford is pretty good (albeit only seen on a stadium tour).

until it is your season ticket and you really don't like the alternative you have been given and cannot do anything about it but walk away from the club

just to be clear - applaud the effort and playing Devils Advocate - but feel for those losing their seats

[MACCA]

Perry - the United solution is one they have to do should the wish to meet the needs of more disabled supporters. It's an old that's been developed and developed over the years with the sole aim of making as much money as possible on match days.

Now it's time for them to make changes its bound to have a effect on supporters, but I heard ( and I'm not sure if 100% true ) that they are/had trouble shifting all season tickets for the last couple of seasons.

Back to Burnley, course they have to justify it financially.
( tin hat on, and hope it comes out correctly )

Just because you have a disabilty doesn't mean you are entitled to top of the range facilities that keep you warm and dry with a great view. If there are facilities available that is enough.
At the moment the free carer pass is a plus point to our club.

For the record I think the facilities need to improve, with a permanent location with logevity needed.

[Chester Perry]

Utd have stated that they can provide alternatives -

Most season ticket holders grow attached to a seat they have had for well over 10 years - you know the people around you and have banter with them - once you have a seat you like you try very hard to keep it when times are tight - here you have no choice you will be moved and it is likely to be to a completely different area of the ground - for most that is something they don't particularly want to do whatever the justification

oh - I would have thought the free carer pass is there for legislative/health and Safety reasons and actually makes life easier for the club as long as the carer does what they are supposed to do which is to put the needs of their "client" (horrible word) before them and the game

[dibraidio]

At Turf Moor we could build a platform across the back of the Jimmy Mac Lower just in front of the "void", it would allow something like 150 disables spaces of the 166? that we need to have and could link out to ramps down to ground level on either side of the stand plus a platform between the Longside and Jimmy Mac to provide disabled toilets and refreshment access (assuming that this can't be done through the void).

Having said that, if we were to do such a project we would lose 3 full rows of seating which would mean knocking something like 300 seats.

To be honest I thought of that last year but thought, they'd never do it because of the loss of capacity and the fuss supporters would make.

Hat's off to United on that one.

[Sidney1st]

It doesn't matter if the club want to do it or not really.

Seeing people sat on the edge of the pitch by the Bob Lord stand or at the bottom of JHL is pretty shocking really.

If the club has to be forced to change this then so be it.
I remember Tony stating that the club and disabled supporters group were finally making progress, but it's still dragging it's heels.

As for offering the same viewing options as other fans, unfortunately that isn't always going to be possible due to the age/style of our stands.

At Reading they're at a good height the one I saw behind the goal, but their stands are pretty much one tiered, so building somewhere specially designed for disabled supporters was easy enough for them.

I know we have a lift in the JH stand, but it's just the one isn't it?
We'd need more then that in all fairness, plus sorting out ramps etc.
The stands were not built with disabled supporters in mind to be brutally honest.

[Chester Perry]

DiBraidio - I would expect that kind of solution for both the new stands with ramp access from the corner between to be the most expedient - will upset some but has to be done

Sidney - Reading is a slightly different scenario - the pitch is lower than the outside ground level - so fans enter the ground at almost halfway up the stands - perfect for disabled access to good viewing platforms

also there is now a lift in the Bob Lord as well and I would expect similar in the Jimmy Mac

[quoonbeatz]

the other point with united's actions is that they are taking out some of the cheapest seats in the ground so an already expensive season ticket is going up in more ways than one - the alternative is in a higher part of the stand and costs £171 more.

[Dressinggown]

What is the cordoned off area of grey seats towards the front of the CFS used for ? It has it's own entrance / exit and is rarely occupied. It probably would not meet the numbers of disabled spaces required but it would be a start.

[ClaretTony]

The club have long term plans for providing disabled spaces/access/toilet facilities etc. There is a huge amount of work to be done.

[Sidney1st]

What is the cordoned off area of grey seats towards the front of the CFS used for ? It has it's own entrance / exit and is rarely occupied. It probably would not meet the numbers of disabled spaces required but it would be a start.

That would probably be ideal for disabled away fans.

[DCWat]

What is the requirement, is it as simple as x % of capacity and how was the percentage arrived at?

[d1sc0]

I am an assistant for my dad in the disabled section and imo the thought into the disabled facilities is a joke. Forget the sat uncovered stuff. That's a whole separate issue here are some basics in my experience experience.

- as a personal assistant I use or assist with the facilities provided. Never once during the ongoing consultation have I been asked my views or thoughts.

- during sky games the camera man on the touchline is in front of disabled supporters and view is restricted. I'm no again sky etc but why can't the touchline camera be on the bob lord stand. They can move. The disabled supporters can not.

- the kids that do the flags, Mascots etc are sat behind the disabled or brought in and out at that corner of the ground. I think the worst occasion this season was the Man City game when at 5 mins after kick off people were still being shown to there seats. Again the disabled supporters cannot move the other people or groups can. I am not against the kids and the community stuff it where the future claret supporters come from however these groups can move etc the disabled supporters cannot.

These are Ssmple things that could be changed that would vastly improve the disabled supporters viewing experience without spending vast sums of money. Before getting started on the poor view, open to the elements etc.

[ClaretTony]

- as a personal assistant I use or assist with the facilities provided. Never once during the ongoing consultation have I been asked my views or thoughts.

I've highlighted one part of your post because the rest of it I can totally agree with having spoken to others who are in the same position as yourself.

But as for not being asked - were you sat there last season? I'm asking because as far as I know the then DLO Andrew Daley contacted all the disabled area season ticket holders which was the start of the consultation process. Are you involved with the Disabled Supporters Group which has been set up? They are involved with the ongoing discussions with the club. Their details are in the Supporters Clubs Directory at http://www.uptheclarets.com/supporters-clubs-directory if you wish to contact them.

[dsr]

The problem with anywhere not at ground level, I dare say, isn't so much access as escape. I'm sure there are rules about how fast you have to be able to evacuate the stand, and if dozens of wheelchair users have to be moved in lifts, then you need either a lot of lifts or a smaller number of big lifts. Neither the Bob Lord nor the Cricket Field, as I remember them, have much space to put a lift into; and it wouldn't be a five minute job either.

[Leisure]

The problem with anywhere not at ground level, I dare say, isn't so much access as escape. I'm sure there are rules about how fast you have to be able to evacuate the stand, and if dozens of wheelchair users have to be moved in lifts, then you need either a lot of lifts or a smaller number of big lifts. Neither the Bob Lord nor the Cricket Field, as I remember them, have much space to put a lift into; and it wouldn't be a five minute job either.

And I'm fairly certain that lifts cannot be used to evacuate a building/stadium if there is a fire.

[DCWat]

A lift was fitted into the Bob Lord during the renovation, I think.

[dsr]

And I'm fairly certain that lifts cannot be used to evacuate a building/stadium if there is a fire.

That's true. But not entirely relevant, because other emergencies are available. To be specific, I'm pretty sure that there is supposed to be a minimum time to evacuate the ground during a bomb scare, and if there's one lift for a few dozen wheelchair users, it would be a difficult target to reach.

[d1sc0]

Hi Tony. I have been my dad's assistant for a couple of years now and was in there last season. My dad was contacted yes. But I wasn't. Don't know whether it was just an oversight or only the disabled fans were contacted. That being my point the assistants are also users of the facilities .

Whilst i am aware there are discussions happening. I have had no communication directly about it. Given I have a clarets no. My own season card and the club has all my details it isn't difficult for the club to contact me.

Out of interest which points have you forwarded?

[dsr]

Whilst i am aware there are discussions happening. I have had no communication directly about it. Given I have a clarets no. My own season card and the club has all my details it isn't difficult for the club to contact me.

Given that you knew a discussion was going on, and that your father was involved in it, wouldn't it have been equally easy for you to contact the club? Or are you saying you tried to contact them and they wouldn't talk to you?

[d1sc0]

Totally agree I could have contacted the club. I'm of the opinion I shouldn't have to. As a paying customer a basic level of customer service would be the club contacts me.

I am not trying to bash the club down here. I do think the club is run to a very high standard both on and off the pitch. Could there be improvements. Yes but the same can be said of any business. It's just frustrating that as good at recent improvements have been. Club shop training facilities etc. It's sometimes the simple things that only cost a little common sense are overlooked.

[dsr]

So there are things you could have suggested to the club, which would have been cheap and easy to do, which they may have overlooked, which you could easily have told the discussion group, and which crucially would have improved the experience for your father - but you chose not to tell them because you were upset they didn't ask you?

Perhaps you could swallow your pride and go and talk to them. It would be a shame if disabled people are missing out just because you're waiting to be asked.

[d1sc0]

I certainly wasn't upset. Watching the clarets in the most part has been a pleasure the last few seasons. Just stating my opinion in a football forum about Burnley.

Thankfully even if by total accident by commenting on the forum Tony has passed on some of my thoughts and has provided me a little more information about how to contact the club about similar issues etc.

[Claretmatt4]

I would hope that if we stay up this is one of the priorities the club takes.

If we lose a chunk of capacity becasue of it its not a major issue really is it? We rarely fill the ground anyway and I would hope a prolonged stay in the PL would bring in some further ground improvements as well.

This is exactly where the windfall should come into good use.

[Claretforever]

Hi d1sco, don't carers get a free ticket? Only being a pedant with you saying you're a paying customer.

Also, I would have thought the designated carer could change from game to game(???), so I'm unsure why the club would contact anyone but the ticket/season ticket holder?

We've got money to make changes now, and it's an ideal time to have your input heard and acted upon. Hopefully they improve this along with the outside of the rest of the ground if we stay up. It's looking a bit dated for sure.

[MACCA]

Hi d1sco, don't carers get a free ticket? Only being a pedant with you saying you're a paying customer.

Someone I know is an carer and I'm sure he said his season ticket was £1 as he was a carer of a full paying supporter.

( could be rubbish or out of date )

[d1sc0]

Hi Claret Forever. I think the issue of what I pay is irrelevant but for the record it's an additional £1 for the assistants seat. In my situation me and my dad go halves on the combined ticket. The personal assistant ticket is in my name, my clarets number, has a seat number etc on it and says personal assistant. I've been a season ticket holder and and off with the clarets since I was 11. Now 40. I think that makes me a customer lol.

The issues I raise with regards views etc effect all who use the disabled facilities. When there is a crowd of people trying to be seated in block 9 lower after waving flags 5 mins after kick off. All the disabled section cannot see the game. Ok the disabled cannot stand. But nor can the assistants as they then further obstruct the views of the disabled supporters. So yes I think the assistants views and opinions do matter.

I cannot state enough the importance of the stuff done with kids. At 11 I would have given every limb of my body to be able to be a mascot or play a game on the turf. I am aware how special that is. I just thing the whole thing could be managed better. Yes change the infrastructure that takes time. But in the meantime simple changes to the way situations are managed could greatly improve things. What would it take for an able bodied person from the club to sit in a wheel chair for 90 minutes in the disabled section and experience the match day in the same wat the disabled / assistants do. Move the kids to another part of the ground. Etc. I'm not saying I am right just all ideas

[Pstotto]

Are 300 disabled folk more fitting than 2600 able bodied folk? Will they have a women and children season tickets first policy, too, to go with it? Will they build a hospital for the terminally ill to watch instead of hospitality seats? Who deserves and who doesn't? And will they disable the able anyway, in the form of 'safe standing' which is essentially apparatus for the disabled?

[Chester Perry]

Even with all this extra seating and impact on existing supporters Utd will not meet the numbers required by legislation