Arsenal - would they be better off if Wenger left?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:26 am

An Arsenal fan I know wants Wenger out, changed his FB profile picture to a 'Wenger Out' image

Initially claimed he's wanted Wenger out from day one when i asked him, but switched it to the last 3 years when I asked him, but I don't think the grass would immediately be greener on the other side, so to speak.

Anyone else think they'd be better off?

Tribesmen · Post by **Tribesmen** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:40 am

You may regret what you wish for .

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:44 am

Arsenal used to have great captains/Leaders. 2/3 in the same 11 at times. Petit, Adams, Keown, Gilberto, Campbell, Viera, Dixon, Lauren, Winterburn its over 10 years since they've had one. They're so weak at the back and infront of the defence. I heard chamberlain and coquelan?? Played in the middle yesterday. Says it all really.

gawthorpe_view · Post by **gawthorpe_view** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:50 am

We might not be better off if they come and nick our manager.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:51 am

The players have let Wenger down.

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:01 am

Arsenal fans moan about anything. Been a great manager but not sure he is going to win anything. Grass isn't always greener though. Do they take the gamble ?

EarbyClaret · Post by **EarbyClaret** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:07 am

His personality is stamped all over the club just like SAF at United. Following him after a 20 plus year stint and maintaining that level of consistency would be nearly impossible. Maybe the manager after the manager after Wenger would be the better job.

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:29 am

It certainly would take some time to improve with a change of manager, would the fans allow that time these days?

Goobs · Post by **Goobs** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:34 am

EarbyClaret wrote:His personality is stamped all over the club just like SAF at United. Following him after a 20 plus year stint and maintaining that level of consistency would be nearly impossible. Maybe the manager after the manager after Wenger would be the better job.

Whilst I sort of see where you are coming from I think Arsenal is a totally different beast to United after SAF. They haven't had anywhere near the level of success United had and also the level of fan support for Ferguson was way above that which Wenger now has, so the man to follow him may not have such a difficult task especially if he is brought in at the end of the season and given a full preseason to add a couple of his own players and work with the squad.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:18 pm

Fair points.

They don't need much do they?
Another pairing similar to Viera & Petit, or at least one player similar to either.
A world class forward.

The rest just need to pull their fingers out don't they?

Winstonswhite · Post by **Winstonswhite** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:18 pm

Get rid. They're awful. 12 years without a trophy. Is that the longest any manager has been in charge without winning anything??

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:25 pm

At Arsenal or any club?
I don't think Gradi won much at Crewe

Diesel · Post by **Diesel** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:26 pm

The million dollar question: Who could do any better?

I certainly can't think of anyone.

Woodleyclaret · Post by **Woodleyclaret** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:34 pm

No he has made the club a fortune.Their recruiment of foreign players at times has not worked but overall as the second team in London playing in major finals and Europe year in year out is some achievement.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:34 pm

Yes they need to get rid, have a watch of Arsenal Fan Tv on youtube (not for kids ears though), it's brilliant and funny at the same time, look out for DT, Troopz and Ty interviews

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:37 pm

Piers Morgan is happy...

: wp_ss_20170205_0003.png (140.2 KiB) Viewed 4361 times

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:15 pm

The logical thing here is to bring in someone, an understudy of his choosing, to work with him until he jacks it in. There is too much good about Wenger's Arsenal to radically change direction with the appointment of a new manager.

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:40 am

I doubt it, now the directors is another question.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:06 am

If they can get Simeone, then yeah, if they can't?

Every season challenging, every season top four, that is something that no one has achieved. And with the way football is these days, thats actually worth a fair bit.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:11 am

Last season should have been a stroll for them. It was simply down to the fact that Wenger is no longer good enough to win the league and was totally clueless when it came to tactics. With all the other clubs in turmoil, Wenger should have been able to win the league at a canter, yet he failed massively.

Great title winning manager once, now completely out of his depth if Arsenal have aspirations to win the league!

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:11 am

They need a change from top to bottom.
Fresh ideas and a brand of football capable of winning things.

I watch arsenal and actually wonder what the game plan is.

Gone are the years of them defending a corner then 30 seconds later scoring. They were excellent to watch back in the day, now they look average.

If I could use one word to describe them it would be.

STALE

claptrappers_union · Post by **claptrappers_union** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:13 pm

Every year for the past decade... same discussion.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:15 pm

They don't have a squad capable of winning the league so he isn't under achieving IMO.
Arsenal reluctant to spend the cash to really attract the world class players they need, they would rather waste it on players like Xhaka.
They have been crying out for a world class holding player, a real world class forward and probably another winger for how long? It took them years to sign a real central defensive partner for Koscielny, they messed around and signed Gabriel on the cheap.
If the club aren't prepared to spend the money to attract the players capable of making a difference then it's no surprise they struggle to really push for the title.

Sproggy · Post by **Sproggy** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:25 pm

Finishing 4th every year obviously meets the criteria being handed down from above.

As a fan I'd be terminally bored. There's just no risk being taken, on or off the field. Wenger could probably die aged 108 and still manage them to 4th propped up at the side of the pitch in a full length cryogenic puffer jacket for 10 years before anyone noticed.

BertiesBeehole · Post by **BertiesBeehole** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:35 pm

Hope he stays just to **** Piers off

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:42 pm

Sproggy wrote:Finishing 4th every year obviously meets the criteria being handed down from above.

As a fan I'd be terminally bored. There's just no risk being taken, on or off the field. Wenger could probably die aged 108 and still manage them to 4th propped up at the side of the pitch in a full length cryogenic puffer jacket for 10 years before anyone noticed.

Fantastic achievement to consistently place top 4 though, I can't remember the last time they were outside the top 4 at the end of a season.

ShabbaRanks · Post by **ShabbaRanks** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:43 pm

The thing is, when you say "be careful what you wish for", what's the alternative?

Yes they play in the CL every season but it's like groundhog day for them there too - they're in there to make up the numbers, just like they exist to make up the numbers of the top 4 in the PL now.

Wenger just doesn't look like he's got a tactical masterstroke in him, or a game changing sub. His sides are notorious for being mentally weak and it's hung around their necks for years now.

Sometimes, clubs stagnate. Some need to get relegated to purge high earners and bad apples, and have a reshuffle around with their management team and objectives. They aren't going to get relegated but having a reshuffle and taking the risk of a "hit" of not having CL football for a few years may well reap dividends as a long term strategy. Or it might not. Maybe they'd just prefer 4th or 3rd till he retires and depending on your viewpoint, there's nothing wrong with that.

Two strategies of his which I believe need looking at, at the very least is

1) Only offering one year contracts to over 30's
2) Their wage structure. Did you know a reason why they don't compete with the highest wages is because they prefer their first team squad to all be on a similar amount of money for squad harmony purposes. The likes of Bellerin, Monreal, Gibbs, Gabriel, Ospina and others are all on north of 85K.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:54 pm

ShabbaRanks wrote:The thing is, when you say "be careful what you wish for", what's the alternative?

Yes they play in the CL every season but it's like groundhog day for them there too - they're in there to make up the numbers, just like they exist to make up the numbers of the top 4 in the PL now.

Wenger just doesn't look like he's got a tactical masterstroke in him, or a game changing sub. His sides are notorious for being mentally weak and it's hung around their necks for years now.

Sometimes, clubs stagnate. Some need to get relegated to purge high earners and bad apples, and have a reshuffle around with their management team and objectives. They aren't going to get relegated but having a reshuffle and taking the risk of a "hit" of not having CL football for a few years may well reap dividends as a long term strategy. Or it might not. Maybe they'd just prefer 4th or 3rd till he retires and depending on your viewpoint, there's nothing wrong with that.

Two strategies of his which I believe need looking at, at the very least is

1) Only offering one year contracts to over 30's
2) Their wage structure. Did you know a reason why they don't compete with the highest wages is because they prefer their first team squad to all be on a similar amount of money for squad harmony purposes. The likes of Bellerin, Monreal, Gibbs, Gabriel, Ospina and others are all on north of 85K.

Wenger decides how much the club spend on wages? I'm not sure how true that is.
I don't think only offering 1 year contracts to players over 30 is a bad idea either tbh, least then you're not stuck with injury prone 30+ year olds draining the club of a wage without providing anything and probably has no re-sale value.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:58 pm

Winstonswhite wrote:Get rid. They're awful. 12 years without a trophy. Is that the longest any manager has been in charge without winning anything??

They won a trophy a year and a half ago.

ShabbaRanks · Post by **ShabbaRanks** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:05 pm

Wenger has a big say in various facets of footballing operations, and while he may not be the one saying yes or no, his opinion is absolutely sought out and utilized in their decision making processes.

As for the contract policy, It is and it isn't depending on the make up of the player - I'm not sure it should be "either it's black or it's white", why not be flexible? If I'm a 25+ year old footballer and an offer from Arsenal is on the table then it's absolutely going to be a consideration for any agent worth his salt.

Also, for the players themselves, players are fitter and are playing longer. Players used to start dropping form and fitness and retiring mainly in their early to mid 30's. It's now mid-late 30's. I don't think it's fit for purpose anymore, and we have first hand knowledge of losing a player even when we offer more money over a one year term because he wanted the security of a longer contract.

lucs86 · Post by **lucs86** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:34 pm

I'd guess that of all the regular CL clubs from England they'll be the ones with the lowest net spend, which is obviously an achievement. They also play some really good football which will be why a lot of the fans have stuck by Wenger when the trophies dried up.

It doesn't really look like things will get better for them now though, they've been in this position for so long, nearly there but with pretty obvious deficiencies, there's no real indication any more that Wenger's the one to do something about it. Sanchez and Ozil are more or less irreplaceable and if one or both leave then top 4 becomes a real challenge.

Someone like Simeone would be a pretty significant change of philiosophy but probably a step too far. Think Wenger's time is more or less up.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:05 pm

ShabbaRanks wrote:Wenger has a big say in various facets of footballing operations, and while he may not be the one saying yes or no, his opinion is absolutely sought out and utilized in their decision making processes.

As for the contract policy, It is and it isn't depending on the make up of the player - I'm not sure it should be "either it's black or it's white", why not be flexible? If I'm a 25+ year old footballer and an offer from Arsenal is on the table then it's absolutely going to be a consideration for any agent worth his salt.

Also, for the players themselves, players are fitter and are playing longer. Players used to start dropping form and fitness and retiring mainly in their early to mid 30's. It's now mid-late 30's. I don't think it's fit for purpose anymore, and we have first hand knowledge of losing a player even when we offer more money over a one year term because he wanted the security of a longer contract.

I'm not sure it should be "either it's black or it's white", why not be flexible?
they're flexible, they have given players over the age of 30, a contract for longer than 1 year.

If I'm a 25+ year old footballer and an offer from Arsenal is on the table then it's absolutely going to be a consideration for any agent worth his salt. Surely as many transfer moves as possible for the player is better for the agent?

Also, for the players themselves, players are fitter and are playing longer. Players used to start dropping form and fitness and retiring mainly in their early to mid 30's. It's now mid-late 30's. Still doesn't make them more valuable, more likely to suffer niggly injuries and how many 32+ year olds are playing regular for top sides in England?

ShabbaRanks · Post by **ShabbaRanks** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:25 pm

Only for the very elite players have they altered that policy and it sends the wrong message in my opinion.

I think I've either not stressed my point or you've misunderstood it. I'm not talking about their value, it's about players choosing not to go to Arsenal because they know in their later career they may not be guaranteed a longer term contract, and adding that into Arsenal paying less than their peers for the best talent, how many have they lost out on because of that?

LeadBelly · Post by **LeadBelly** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:06 pm

Post 24: "...Wenger could probably die aged 108 and still manage them to 4th propped up at the side of the pitch in a full length cryogenic puffer jacket for 10 years before anyone noticed."
That's hilarious. Next time the Gunners are on TV and Arsene is on camera in said jacket, I'll be giggling away thinking about that one.

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:08 pm

Arsenal abit like ourselves but on a much grander scale. We both have budgets which we're not willing to break. For anyone. The problem is characters. Utd kept G.Neville, Giggs, Scholes around the place. For leadership in training and the dressing room. Arsenal don't. He's far too stubborn in his ways at times.

If I was playing for them and standing in the tunnel I looked round at my teammates. Who do you turn too when **** hits the fan? Nobody. Whos gonna fight for the ball. Coquelan was a fine example of that on Saturday. Hazard wouldn't of brushed Viera aside as easily.

ShabbaRanks · Post by **ShabbaRanks** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:37 pm

Exactly my point.

He's supposed to be their enforcer and he's about as intimidating as Claret Tony is when he's asking someone to sit down at an away game.

You look at their first team squad and the only one of them who looks up for mixing it if it gets a bit naughty is Xhaka but he's an idiot with it, easy to wind up and get himself off.

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:45 pm

Is there any point qualifying for the Champions League if you're going to get knocked out in the last 16 every year? If I were an Arsenal fan I would accept finishing 7/8th if it meant having a serious go at winning the league. Would love to see Simeone get his hands on that squad. A complete change is what they need, when one manager stays there for so long it's bound to go a bit stale.

Sleeping Cat · Post by **Sleeping Cat** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:57 pm

I think it's time for someone new. This Arsenal team, the majority of which has been together now for 3/4 seasons, are not progressing. It feels as though a fresh approach is required to try and take that group of players to the next level (or get the right players in).

Getting a new manager guarantees nothing though. It's still a massive risk to get rid of Wenger.

Giftonsnoidea · Post by **Giftonsnoidea** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:05 pm

They pass far too much with no end product and really need a world class striker instead of Sanchez up front.

If they could get Benzema they would walk the league, Wenger is too stubborn to change the playing style.

He has done a great job but its probably time to move on.

They need someone like Conte with fresh ideas

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:20 pm

imagine how big his ever-lengthening coat will be when he's 108.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:37 pm

quoonbeatz wrote:imagine how big his ever-lengthening coat will be when he's 108.

Something like this I imagine.

: Wengers coat.jpg (16.8 KiB) Viewed 3942 times

jlup1980 · Post by **jlup1980** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:43 pm

Wenger has been a legend for Arsenal but the key words are "has been". Consistent he might be, but he's not really taken the club forward for many years. They've sort of stagnated and just about held onto the top four year after year.

It's easy to belittle what he's done as reaching the top four is an achievement in itself, but when you look at United over the past few years, Chelsea last season, Liverpool most seasons, Leicester this season, City this season etc ... they've had the chance to push on at other clubs expense yet they haven't.

This season I think they're as bad as Arsenal have been in the PL era. They're just hanging onto the top four but I think they'll drop out by May. I said after our game at The Emirates that the supporters of other top four clubs must be fuming with the extra 4 points they've been awarded against us this season. Take them away and they're out of the top four and probably where they belong to be given performances this season.

Wenger needs to address major weaknesses and get transfers over the line. He was chasing Hazard for years before Chelsea signed him. What held Wenger back? He spoke to Kante about moving there; again what happened? Surely they were in pole position as they could offer CL football where Chelsea couldn't.

All this said he'll be one hell of a Manager to replace. His achievements are plenty, however most of them are 15 years or more in the past!

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:15 pm

ShabbaRanks wrote:Exactly my point.

He's supposed to be their enforcer and he's about as intimidating as Claret Tony is when he's asking someone to sit down at an away game.

You look at their first team squad and the only one of them who looks up for mixing it if it gets a bit naughty is Xhaka but he's an idiot with it, easy to wind up and get himself off.

So Wenger is doing extremely well to consistently finish top 4 then....
If you think he's underachieving you're mental, they don't have a squad capable of challenging for a league title and haven't for years.
I don't think your point about the 1 year contract and players refusing them because of it makes any sense either, the problem is they aren't prepared to splash the cash needed to bring in the elite players they desperately need. Interestingly you said only elite players over the age of 30 get over a year contract at Arsenal but they gave Sebastien Squillaci a 3 year deal? is/was he an elite player? No and he was utter bobbins for Arsenal and a waste of a wage for 3 long years. The policy I agree with, Arsenal don't need 30+ year old players on long stupid contracts if they're not elite players. Arteta and Rosicky are two who have recently left, despite sat around the club injured for years collecting huge wages an absolute waste of resources.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:35 pm

ShabbaRanks wrote:Exactly my point.

He's supposed to be their enforcer and he's about as intimidating as Claret Tony is when he's asking someone to sit down at an away game.

You look at their first team squad and the only one of them who looks up for mixing it if it gets a bit naughty is Xhaka but he's an idiot with it, easy to wind up and get himself off.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:42 pm

Been a great manager for Arsenal and even more so for The English game. Some of his teams have been outstanding. Some of the players he has developed too.

Up until probably a few weeks ago I thought he was probably still good enough and wanted him as England manager. But what happened against us along with recent results has lead me to think he either no longer wants to or is no longer able to 'do it' any more. The two cup wins were needed but probably bought him time that he and the club didnt need.

Its a great shame that he hasnt won the european cup but the club cant hold on for what might be.

I still think he could do a decent job at international level - he is clearly capable of identifying and developing talent without spending vast amounts (relative to the competition and the clubs turnover).

Maybe they need a change as much for Wenger if anything. If they consistently finished out of the top 4 then maybe Wengers stock would rise after he had gone. And if they dont and go onto win things there is still no doubting what he has achieved.

Very good manager in his time there. Outstanding early on. The game has changed. Vieira was one of the best players the premier league has seen. But he wouldnt be able to play a tough player of his nature these days and since Gilberto went thats what they have missed.

For a club the size of Arsenal to constantly finish in the top 4 and nothing else is not success. At least not for the fans, especially when they pay north of £1k a year for season tickets.

Its OK having squad harmony and not over committing to 'older' players. But had they offered RVP a longer deal on more money and got rid of injury prone potential like Wilshere they would have done far better. After all they have paid amazing amounts of money for older players out of sentiment (Henry and Flamini second time round) and even worse for average players. Jenkinson wouldnt go to Palace because Arsenal pay him too much.

Arsenal is the perfect example of quantity over quality.

ShabbaRanks · Post by **ShabbaRanks** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:54 pm

KRBFC wrote:So Wenger is doing extremely well to consistently finish top 4 then....
If you think he's underachieving you're mental, they don't have a squad capable of challenging for a league title and haven't for years.
I don't think your point about the 1 year contract and players refusing them because of it makes any sense either, the problem is they aren't prepared to splash the cash needed to bring in the elite players they desperately need. Interestingly you said only elite players over the age of 30 get over a year contract at Arsenal but they gave Sebastien Squillaci a 3 year deal? is/was he an elite player? No and he was utter bobbins for Arsenal and a waste of a wage for 3 long years. The policy I agree with, Arsenal don't need 30+ year old players on long stupid contracts if they're not elite players. Arteta and Rosicky are two who have recently left, despite sat around the club injured for years collecting huge wages an absolute waste of resources.

To be fair you do play Ultimate Team an awful lot so you're right on all points, I've changed my mind.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:56 pm

ShabbaRanks wrote:To be fair you do play Ultimate Team an awful lot so you're right on all points, I've changed my mind.

I play Ultimate team an awful lot? Do I?????
I mean you did say ''Arsenal only give elite players over the age of 30 a contract longer than 1 year'' so you must think Sebastien Squillaci is/was an elite player. You're entitled to your own opinion I guess.