Andre Gray

scouseclaret · Post by **scouseclaret** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:27 pm

I think the jury is definately out on whther he's a Premier League striker - his first touch certainly suggests otherwise - but that doesn't excuse his performance today. He's got plenty of goals at every level below the Premier League - he should have made more of his chances against a Conference team.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:27 pm

Barry_Chuckle wrote:"He's a raw talent" how long will we be rolling this one out?

He's been with us heading towards 2 seasons, one of which will be in the top league of English football.

And in the other he won Championship player of the year and scored 25 goals.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:28 pm

I'm not defending Gray by the way, he was very poor today, but I wouldn't write him off. He's made a huge leap through the divisions in a short space of time. He's scored a Premier League hat trick. He's nowhere near the finished article and needs to work extremely hard to make it at this level but he'll know that.

beddie · Post by **beddie** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:30 pm

Not good today I'm afraid. It's down to the Manager picking the wrong team. No fluency from the back that Ward & Lowton bring to the side, those two may have helped Scott & George. For a game like this Barnes should have started, Sam is starting to look a bit of a cart horse. Thought Darikwa & Tarkowski played well but the rest, no comment.

BabylonClaret · Post by **BabylonClaret** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:42 pm

Roosterbooster is right. Whilst you have to give Lincoln credit for staying in the game and working hard they created nothing and on another day one of our chances would have gone in.

We were too narrow and that is down to the paucity of offering from both full backs . It was a problem against Sunderland and also against Bristol. I expect that seein g as we managed to win both those in the end Dyche thought we would be ok here. Trouble was the rest of the side got dragged into a physical contest where chances were few and we couldn't get going.

Ward at half time would have probably given enough balance and width to open the game more . In the end it was an awful lower league hoofathon where at the end of the day it's all about Lincoln's result

warksclaret · Post by **warksclaret** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:43 pm

Agreed with Beddie-shows the importance of Lowton & Ward . Darikwa can do some things really well but does not have the composure of these two full backs. Needs to go out on loan in the Championship

Flanagan is a liability and would put Ben to LB if Ward ever got injured

BabylonClaret · Post by **BabylonClaret** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:45 pm

Darikwa showed today he is a league 1 possibly championship player rathrr than a Champuonship possibly Premier League player

Barry_Chuckle · Post by **Barry_Chuckle** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:45 pm

Rileybobs wrote:And in the other he won Championship player of the year and scored 25 goals.

So he's NOT raw then

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:53 pm

Barry_Chuckle wrote:So he's NOT raw then

I didn't say he was raw, I said he is a raw talent - there's quite a difference. He has the raw abilities ie. pace, strength, finishing - but he often lacks the composure and intelligence to take full advantage of this, and his poor first touch doesn't help. If he works on his touch, movement and decision making he could make it at Premier League level. I certainly wouldn't write him off after 19 starts at that level.

scouseclaret · Post by **scouseclaret** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:57 pm

Rileybobs wrote:I didn't say he was raw, I said he is a raw talent - there's quite a difference. He has the raw abilities ie. pace, strength, finishing - but he often lacks the composure and intelligence to take full advantage of this, and his poor first touch doesn't help. If he works on his touch, movement and decision making he could make it at Premier League level. I certainly wouldn't write him off after 19 starts at that level.

He wasn't playing in the Premier League today - he was playing in the FA Cup. Against a non-league team!

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:58 pm

scouseclaret wrote:He wasn't playing in the Premier League today - he was playing in the FA Cup. Against a non-league team!

I'm fully aware of that. Are you suggesting that Andre Gray isn't even at non-league level then?

Siddo · Post by **Siddo** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:59 pm

Can you have potential at 25, or are you in the main the finished article in what is a short career?

aclaretinstevenage · Post by **aclaretinstevenage** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:01 pm

Just my opinion obviously but this defeat was about attitude. It looked like the team approached this game with a "we're Premier League playing anon-league team" attitude. Doomed to fail form the start. If you take to the pitch with that mindset you cannot change it across the team during the game. Lincoln outran, outfought and outplayed us at our own game all day. I hope the changing rooms need repainting after that shambles.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:03 pm

Siddo wrote:Can you have potential at 25, or are you in the main the finished article in what is a short career?

Of course you can. Gray his now testing himself against players at a much higher level than he has previously. He was playing non-league 2 and a half years ago. He should benefit from better coaching, playing alongside better players and testing himself against better players and should improve as a result. Maybe he won't, but to write him off or suggest he can't have potential to improve at the age of 25 is ridiculous.

3putt · Post by **3putt** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:25 pm

Barry_Chuckle wrote:"He's a raw talent" how long will we be rolling this one out?

He's been with us heading towards 2 seasons, one of which will be in the top league of English football.

The first of which, his goals were one of the main reasons that we reached the Prem, the second, he is our leading goal scorer, despite the season being quite badly disrupted for him.

DuckworthsEA · Post by **DuckworthsEA** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:53 pm

Any fan is permitted to raise their concerns and criticize players however it was a bad day at the office and some of the comments questioning if he is a premier league player seem harsh after a bad game for eveyone in the starting X1. If we stay up this season I would like to think a partner for him would be at the top of Dyche's transfer list because Barnes and Vokes are Championship standard at best. Shame for Vokes as I was a fan but his last few starts haven't gone well. UTC

Top Claret · Post by **Top Claret** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:01 pm

Andre had a stinker today, should have scored a hatrick.

He has been looking really sharp of late. I hope this poor performance does not knock his confidence, because he his a far better player than today's performance would suggest

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:03 pm

I must say that I am a bit torn regarding Andre Gray. I like that he's strong and quick and but he does (as we all know) have a poor first touch and he's really not clinical enough at this level - not yet anyway. I hope he's given plenty more chances as he continues to adapt to this level. At present, we can afford to give him that chance. He's come a long way in a short time and we have to recognise that he is still learning. But I do hope we can strengthen up front this summer because Barnes, Gray and Vokes probably aren't going to get us too many goals at this level (and I love Ash Barnes). Thankfully goals are nicely spread across the whole team so there's no real urgency. Of course, part of our problem at least today was that we don't create enough chances in the first place and that falls down to players other than Gray.

HelloHiGoodbye · Post by **HelloHiGoodbye** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:06 pm

He was bobbins today. Stunk the place out. However, it would be fantastic if we could try to play a different way every so often to get the best out of him. He's rarely in an isolated position, facing the goal, running on to the ball. Granted, there's a lot of stuff he needs to improve but he really isn't helped by the way we play - even though it's proved to be successful.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:13 pm

There are strikers playing in the league below who've got better, or similar, goal scoring stats in the lower league then Gray but have been unable to make the step up, or given a decent chance.

Rhodes being one of them, McCormack another.

He's in his first season in the top flight and its been disrupted by his past stupidity.

The oh so wonderful Defoe has never been that prolific in the PL apart from these last two seasons.
Giroud at Arsenal only averages 12-14 league goals a season...

Give Gray a break and let him learn.

Funkydrummer · Post by **Funkydrummer** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:16 pm

It's ok highlighting his short time in the top flight, but the basics are missing and have no relevance
to the standard of the opposition. If a player has found some space, which he did today on a few
occasions, he should at least be able to control the ball, irrespective of whether he is playing up
Towneley or in the World Cup. What he does next however IS related to the quality around him, whether
team mate or opposition.

I rest my case !

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:00 pm

We're lucky to have a talented squad around him, I think we've had 13 scorers this season; two more than we can field in a game, which papers over some of the cracks in Gray's game.

A win is a win but If you took away a Barnes goal here or an Arfield goal there and relied more on our main striker as many teams do we'd be a long way off where we are now.

Bertie2015 · Post by **Bertie2015** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:15 pm

The biggest disappointment from Gray today was the way he ignored the older generation fan he walked out with, horsing around with Arfield instead. In stark contrast to Joey

scouseclaret · Post by **scouseclaret** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:13 pm

Rileybobs wrote:I'm fully aware of that. Are you suggesting that Andre Gray isn't even at non-league level then?

Not at all. I just find it strange that this thread has become a debate on his fitness or otherwise as a Premier League striker based on a performance against a non-league team.

He was inexplicably bad today. Whether it's down to attitude, an off day or he's been distracted by his new celebrity girlfriend I don't know, but we do know he can score goals against that calibre of opposition. I don't think it tells you anything about his PL credentials.

RMutt · Post by **RMutt** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:16 pm

There was a situation where he was running through on goal. He was fouled, could have gone down but carried on and missed. Good on him, honest. Unfortunately a game where more than the average number of players had off days. It happens.

daveisaclaret · Post by **daveisaclaret** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:18 pm

I was a big believer in Andre, but he's at the very bottom of the list of brilliant young strikers we've had in the 21st century, He is so frustrating.

Been worse than Fletcher was, never mind comparisons to Ings.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:23 pm

When he's good, he's very, very good, when he's bad, he's very, very bad

I'm putting today down to just a terrible performance from all the players, and hopefully a one off.

They certainly deserve our faith that it was a one off anyway

Burnleyareback2 · Post by **Burnleyareback2** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:27 pm

I absolutely hate saying this about any of our players. Especially during our best season in a long time, but pull yourself together Andre.

California Colner · Post by **California Colner** » Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:05 am

Worst professional player not able to control the ball when played into his feet.
Can anybody name one that is as bad?

Malton_Claret · Post by **Malton_Claret** » Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:00 am

Gray has been poor for several weeks now as shown when he should have buried his chance against Chelsea to win the game and ended up with a very poor shot. yesterday he was pathetic, his first touch is terrible and in no way can even be considered in the class as a Premier League striker.

Well deserved Lincoln.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:19 am

How many goals had Jay-Rod scored after his first 19 matches in the PL?

warksclaret · Post by **warksclaret** » Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:29 am

One thing that was obvious today-we play better as the "underdog" and today we looked stone wall bankers to win before the game kicked off

In the PL home or away no one really expects us to win, particularly away, and that seems to lift our team. To some degree SD seems to fall into this camp with many pre and post match interviews making reference to Burnley's relative lack of funding

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:56 am

daveisaclaret wrote:I was a big believer in Andre, but he's at the very bottom of the list of brilliant young strikers we've had in the 21st century, He is so frustrating.

Been worse than Fletcher was, never mind comparisons to Ings.

Fletcher - 8 goals in 35 PL appearance and relegated.

Ings - 11 goals in 35 PL appearances and relegated.

Gray - 6 goals in 19 appearances and probably won't be relegated.

So is he worse then Fletcher?
I don't think so personally.
He will probably never be as loved as Ings was even if he scores a similar amount and we avoid relegation, I think that much is obvious reading some of the comments round here.
Some people are just desperate to write Gray off.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:59 am

Spijed wrote:How many goals had Jay-Rod scored after his first 19 matches in the PL?

6 in 35 in his first full season, which was at Saints.

Then he was on 15 in 33 the season he did his knee.

I wouldn't bother comparing the two though, some people will accuse you of blasphemy

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:01 am

California Colner wrote:Worst professional player not able to control the ball when played into his feet.
Can anybody name one that is as bad?

92 professional league clubs and you're sayinf Gray is the worst in the 4 divisions?

Have a word with yourself.

3putt · Post by **3putt** » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:10 am

"He will probably never be as loved as Ings was even if he scores a similar amount and we avoid relegation, I think that much is obvious reading some of the comments round here.
Some people are just desperate to write Gray off."

Sadly I think that is the case. I find it quite sad that some "fans" are so desperate to write him off. He has achieved a hell of a lot in a short space time and hell of a lot for us. Plenty of time for his game to develop further.

He had a real stinker yesterday, but so did the majority of the team. Vokes was easily as bad if not worse (at least Gray got himself in the right position at times), but he doesn't get the same flack.

Jamesy · Post by **Jamesy** » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:17 am

Malton_Claret wrote:Gray has been poor for several weeks now as shown when he should have buried his chance against Chelsea to win the game and ended up with a very poor shot. yesterday he was pathetic, his first touch is terrible and in no way can even be considered in the class as a Premier League striker.

Well deserved Lincoln.

I think Lancaster has hit the nail on the head in post 77

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:21 am

Gray is doing fine, lose him and we will be in trouble, his pace will always cause trouble. He is the player who can keep us up.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:24 am

Without Gray, teams would be able to play higher up the pitch. However, because of his pace, they can't leave too much space otherwise he can exploit it, as Sunderland found to their cost.

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:36 am

I'm not desperate to write him off. I like gray, when he plays through instinct. I just think he's not a very good footballer. I'm not desperate to get that point across, because anyone who watches him KNOWS he's not.

He was bad yesterday. Quite possibly as bad as I've seen from him. All this "raw talent" and "he's learning all the time" stuff is irrelevant really because he displays 0 raw talent, and he is no better now than when he arrived.

We discussed how effective he was going to be in the PL, with his pace not being as evident, as PL defenders are quicker physically AND mentally. His pace is his biggest asset. That's gone. It wasn't even apparent yesterday. What we are seeing is a player who just isn't very good technically. Dress it up all you want, put it down to everyone having an off day and it won't happen again, but the truth is very simple - he's just not a good player.

3putt · Post by **3putt** » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:40 am

Bobinho, just to be sure here. You are talking about last seasons Championship Player of the year and our leading goal scorer this season aren't you?

scamander · Post by **scamander** » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:40 am

my tuppenceworth:

We have one 'out-ball' which is normally a diagonal from Keane to Vokes who drops deep into the channel between the opposition right back and the centre back to the side of him. This forces the CB to either drop deep and create space for Arfield to run into (assuming Vokes wins it) or have a normally shorter player try and win it against Vokes. In theory we then have possession of the ball in that area, Arfield cutting in is an option but so is Gray for a through ball. There's also the option of our left back overlapping.

The second option is for Gray to get the run on his CB and get in the channel on our right (their left) for a quicker ball.

Yesterday we had the issue that Flanaghan wasn't going to overlap, which meant their right back had the option of picking up Arfield with no fear of leaving a space or even dropping deep and helping out with Vokes. On the right Darikwa was sorely underused and had the beating of their full back. Gray never offered him anything which meant we repeated the same move, hit Vokes and hope Arfield would score a 30 yarder. We had no plan B or looked like we had players who could make a different call. It was a bit Iceland v England in that regard.

I can understand why Dyche left Gray on, he desperately needs a goal so a simple tap in (something he was unable to do) would have given him a great deal of confidence going into some tough games. Darikwa stood out for me, he's not as reliable defensively as Lowton but he offers bit more of a threat going forward.

I've said it before, Gray has the kit to be a decent striker, he's come up very quickly through the leagues and never been in a situation where he's hit a drought, so it's also new. I'm unsure what his gym routine is but he looks to be carrying too much muscle, particularly upper body. No coincidence that he's lost that yard.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:42 am

Gray isn't Jay in footballing terms but he can out score Jay for sure. I thought he tried hard yesterday and was the only striker who really exerted any pressure on the Lincoln defence but the balls up to him were hopeful, he was always being expected to do one heck of a lot. You have to look at the midfield yesterday it was bereft of finesse, wit and simple ball playing skills, with that midfield playing in that way the Championship would beckon very quickly.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:43 am

Gray isn't Jay in footballing terms but he can out score Jay for sure. I thought he tried hard yesterday and was the only striker who really exerted any pressure on the Lincoln defence but the balls up to him were hopeful, he was always being expected to do one heck of a lot. You have to look at the midfield yesterday it was bereft of finesse, wit and simple ball playing skills, with that midfield playing in that way the Championship would beckon very quickly.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:44 am

bobinho wrote:I'm not desperate to write him off. I like gray, when he plays through instinct. I just think he's not a very good footballer. I'm not desperate to get that point across, because anyone who watches him KNOWS he's not.

He was bad yesterday. Quite possibly as bad as I've seen from him. All this "raw talent" and "he's learning all the time" stuff is irrelevant really because he displays 0 raw talent, and he is no better now than when he arrived.

We discussed how effective he was going to be in the PL, with his pace not being as evident, as PL defenders are quicker physically AND mentally. His pace is his biggest asset. That's gone. It wasn't even apparent yesterday. What we are seeing is a player who just isn't very good technically. Dress it up all you want, put it down to everyone having an off day and it won't happen again, but the truth is very simple - he's just not a good player.

Well, according to the stats he's scored 30 goals in 60 appearances for Burnley.

1 in 2 for a striker is brilliant, and you say "he's just not a very good player".

As for loss of pace.....hmmmm

Strewth!

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:59 am

3putt wrote:Bobinho, just to be sure here. You are talking about last seasons Championship Player of the year and our leading goal scorer this season aren't you?

Yes. Although we both know he might have been given the title of PotY, but he was nowhere near the best player in the league. Not even close. He scored a lot of goals, but it should've been a hell of a lot more.
Leading goal scorer this season??? How many goals? Three in one game against a defence with djilibodje in it and more holes than a very large holey thing.

Come on 3putt. Do you think AG is the answer? Ignoring yesterday, as they ALL had a stinker (had to ask at 65 minutes whether SV was on the pitch) what exactly do you see in AG? I see the discussions above, but I cannot relate what's written to what I see.

Flat Stanley · Post by **Flat Stanley** » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:04 am

He was very poor yesterday and looked off the pace although no worse than lots of others. He does seems to be lacking a bit of confidence for some reason.There were various times yesterday when he would have gone himself last season when he tried to play people in instead. However our tactics did not help. Continual long balls which their two giants at the back won easily every time and we kept doing it all game. I don't know why he wasn't running in behind more yesterday, we should have got the ball down played it in behind turned the defenders and tried to use his pace. Instead we tried to play Lincoln at their own game and played hoofball. Some of the fault had to rest with Dyche. He did nothing to change it. When Gray did occasionally make a good run he didn't get the ball. He scored 25 goals last season so it is ridiculous to write him off. He is by far our most dangerous goal threat of the three strikers we have and hopefully he gets his Mojo back soon as we need him to if we are to stay up. There were a lot of poor performances out their yesterday so no reason to single him out.

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:42 am

May I refer you to the thread title, Stanley?

claretabroad · Post by **claretabroad** » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:47 am

Funkydrummer wrote:Elaborate please, I'm all ears.

I absolutely believe Andre Gray has developed as a footballer since he joined us.

1914tyrone · Post by **1914tyrone** » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:58 am

His first touch is as bad as any pro I've watched in thirty years of going on. This will not get any better at 25 years old. Largely you can't teach it, it's instinct.
He can hit the back of the net, but we can not afford a 1 in 4 chance striker at this level!
The biggest problem is we have no alternative to his style of play. So in him we must rely. He can do a lot better than yesterday!!
UTC