Sorry Sam

herbatlerbat · Post by **herbatlerbat** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:36 pm

Love the big guy but not good enough for Premier league, it doesn't help that we dont get up the field enough.
If only he had a bit of pace

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:37 pm

He's good enough to be in the Premier League but I'd want us to strengthen in that area this summer. Although I'd say our main problem stems from midfield and our complete inability to pass and keep the ball. The forwards don't get much in the way of service.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:39 pm

I'll tell you who I'd love upfront for Burnley, but it will never happen: Chris Wood. Him and Gray upfront would be superb. Vokes has enough to be a squad player to come on in the latter stages of the game, but not to start.

Wilsdenclaret · Post by **Wilsdenclaret** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:41 pm

Chris Wood looked like the worst player ever to play professional football until this season, not sure what has happened but not PL standard

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:41 pm

Desperately need to upgrade in this area in summer.

wilks_bfc · Post by **wilks_bfc** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:41 pm

If we could put crosses in like Swansea were doing today then Sam would thrive off them

We all know how capable he is when he gets balls in like that

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:41 pm

We should go all out to sign Peter Crouch.

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:41 pm

Got a very typical Sam Vokes assist today. Play a good ball to him and he'll do that. Way more goal threat with him on the pitch. Don't get that from Barnes.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:44 pm

Wilsdenclaret wrote:Chris Wood looked like the worst player ever to play professional football until this season, not sure what has happened but not PL standard

Happy to agree to disagree.

claretabroad · Post by **claretabroad** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:45 pm

He's not the type of striker to feed off scraps. He need consistent, quality balls into the box for him to attack. Give him the service that Llorente got today and he would be looking at 15 goals a season. Hopefully Brady will get up to speed soon.

herbatlerbat · Post by **herbatlerbat** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:47 pm

Barnes does what he does very well, he keeps defenders on their toes and puts himself about to disrupt play but not a goal scorer.
Thats another great shame

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:47 pm

Needs upgrading.

HuncoatClaret · Post by **HuncoatClaret** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:53 pm

FactualFrank wrote:I'll tell you who I'd love upfront for Burnley, but it will never happen: Chris Wood. Him and Gray upfront would be superb. Vokes has enough to be a squad player to come on in the latter stages of the game, but not to start.

Frank, you're surely having a laugh or a lot of alcohol. Sam has also scored a lot of goals in the championship and as mentioned earlier, if we put some crosses in you'd see a much improved Sam Vokes.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:04 pm

If Vokes were in that attacking Leeds side then Sam would look world class.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:05 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:If Vokes were in that attacking Leeds side then Sam would look world class.

lol

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:07 pm

HuncoatClaret wrote:Frank, you're surely having a laugh or a lot of alcohol. Sam has also scored a lot of goals in the championship and as mentioned earlier, if we put some crosses in you'd see a much improved Sam Vokes.

I think Wood is a very good player and would like to see him here. It won't happen though as he'll be promoted with Leeds.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:07 pm

Llorente isn't quick, not even slightly - JUST LIKE JUKE it's amazing what a striker can do when he has good quality service into the box. It's the reason we brought Brady in

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:14 pm

Rileybobs wrote:lol

Which side would you rather play up front in?

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:17 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:Which side would you rather play up front in?

Burnley's, in the Premier League. My MD is a staunch and biased LUFC fan, and he said that if Wood was to get injured, Leeds would be screwed. I've seen them a few times this season and I wouldn't describe their style of play as 'attacking'.

HuncoatClaret · Post by **HuncoatClaret** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:22 pm

FactualFrank wrote:I think Wood is a very good player and would like to see him here. It won't happen though as he'll be promoted with Leeds.

At least we should be grateful that you aren't our manager then.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:30 pm

HuncoatClaret wrote:At least we should be grateful that you aren't our manager then.

Is that your dragged up way of saying you disagree?

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:31 pm

HuncoatClaret wrote:Frank, you're surely having a laugh or a lot of alcohol. Sam has also scored a lot of goals in the championship and as mentioned earlier, if we put some crosses in you'd see a much improved Sam Vokes.

Just re-read some of your posts. And yeah... you're on the list.

HuncoatClaret · Post by **HuncoatClaret** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:33 pm

FactualFrank wrote:Is that your dragged up way of saying you disagree?

No, that's my way of saying that "you're talking sh1t"

dougcollins · Post by **dougcollins** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:34 pm

Missed Ash big style today.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:34 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Burnley's, in the Premier League. My MD is a staunch and biased LUFC fan, and he said that if Wood was to get injured, Leeds would be screwed. I've seen them a few times this season and I wouldn't describe their style of play as 'attacking'.

The two or three times I have seen Leeds play this season they have looked a very good attacking side and looked like they needed a Forward to stick the chances away if I'm honest. It could of just been the games I watched though.

Wilsdenclaret · Post by **Wilsdenclaret** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:35 pm

Even Leeds fans can't believe what happened to Wood, he was last years whipping boy there

lucs86 · Post by **lucs86** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:43 pm

I wish we could play a system that let us get more crosses in, it would make a player like Vokes ten times more effective.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:47 pm

Wilsdenclaret wrote:Even Leeds fans can't believe what happened to Wood, he was last years whipping boy there

A bit like Sam Vokes at Burnley then?

Wilsdenclaret · Post by **Wilsdenclaret** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:50 pm

FactualFrank wrote:A bit like Sam Vokes at Burnley then?

Very similar players, Wood certainly not an upgrade on Sam though

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:55 pm

Leeds won't go up. Close but no cigar.

Anyone that doesn't think we need to upgrade in a number of positions for next season (including up front) isn't seeing what I'm seeing.

I get the loyalty to players that have served us well and I get the point that Spice has made previously; that we need to maintain an element of the team that has been a significant part of our progression. If we want to develop and improve though, we have to be a little ruthless and this means that great servants like Vokes, Barnes, Boyd, Arfield and to a lesser extent Ward, Lowton and Mee should be phased out / become squad players.

I'm not advocating a cull but too much sentimentality will not serve us well in the long run, there's a balance to be found.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:56 pm

Wilsdenclaret wrote:Very similar players, Wood certainly not an upgrade on Sam though

Like I say, happy to agree to disagree.

Silkyskills1 · Post by **Silkyskills1** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:42 pm

DCWat wrote:Leeds won't go up. Close but no cigar.

Anyone that doesn't think we need to upgrade in a number of positions for next season (including up front) isn't seeing what I'm seeing.

I get the loyalty to players that have served us well and I get the point that Spice has made previously; that we need to maintain an element of the team that has been a significant part of our progression. If we want to develop and improve though, we have to be a little ruthless and this means that great servants like Vokes, Barnes, Boyd, Arfield and to a lesser extent Ward, Lowton and Mee should be phased out / become squad players.

I'm not advocating a cull but too much sentimentality will not serve us well in the long run, there's a balance to be found.

Agree totally with you re; sentimentality but exactly how many players would you call 'a cull'?

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:32 am

Silkyskills1 wrote:Agree totally with you re; sentimentality but exactly how many players would you call 'a cull'?

There's definitely a balance to be had and I'm certainly not suggesting that we should be binning them all off, more that we should be phasing at least three or four out, be that through sales or them moving to more of a squad player role (as appears to be happening with Arfield).

We've got to get in some quality to retain more possession and be more creative when we have the ball. Small but significant steps, if we are to progress while being mindful not to risk the obvious spirit of the squad.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:45 am

We don't play to Sam's strengths at the moment. The goal he scored for Wales v Belgium is as good a header as you will see.

Llorente looked good today because Swansea's crossing was outstanding - ours was as usual pretty abysmal.

If we had Tripps back and Brady on the other side playing to his potential....and we played a style that many other teams do with their full backs then this would be much better for Vokes.

As it is he seems low on confidence and pretty ineffective. We got over run completely today and a big reason for that was playing 2 up front - because Sam cannot put the same shift in as Barnes and gets nowhere near the number of fouls as Barnes.

I agree we need to upgrade a few positions next year - and up front needs one or possibly two new players.

Wokingclaret · Post by **Wokingclaret** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:40 am

We don't support the front players enough away from home

NRC · Post by **NRC** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:48 pm

Very, very languid. And as for buying Brady to put crosses in I don't think I can recall a single one. Compare and contrast with Sigursson.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:50 pm

DCWat wrote:Leeds won't go up. Close but no cigar.

Anyone that doesn't think we need to upgrade in a number of positions for next season (including up front) isn't seeing what I'm seeing.

I get the loyalty to players that have served us well and I get the point that Spice has made previously; that we need to maintain an element of the team that has been a significant part of our progression. If we want to develop and improve though, we have to be a little ruthless and this means that great servants like Vokes, Barnes, Boyd, Arfield and to a lesser extent Ward, Lowton and Mee should be phased out / become squad players.

I'm not advocating a cull but too much sentimentality will not serve us well in the long run, there's a balance to be found.

I do think that if we phase out all of those players, we will regret it in the long run. You need a heartbeat at a team like Burnley, to set the culture and maintain the ethos of giving absolutely everything. Eventually, players will get sick of being squad players, too. It is a very difficult balance but it isn't about sentimentality, it is about maintaining a connection with our roots and ensuring the culture is right. We will never be able to sign the sort of players who can get away with being slightly off their best; we can't afford to sign players who are from the next tier of quality unless we have the right foundation. Mee, Arfield, Vokes and Barnes are players who fit that mould.

As for Vokes, it is only fair to point out that for the last two seasons, he has had to adapt to a slightly different role to accommodate Gray. He played his best football for us with Ings, when Ings played as the deeper of the two. Vokes played the role occupying the two centre backs, but because he has a bit of subtlety and class to his game, he was brilliant at dragging them out of position and letting Ings burst beyond them (he's done this occasionally this season when he has played as the lone striker - putting Gudmundsson through for his goal against Palace is the best example).

With the arrival of Gray, we've generally become a bit more of a direct, power side, and Vokes has had to sacrifice himself a bit to play that deeper role, dropping into midfield - and he does it because he's as honest as they day is long, and he doesn't do it badly, but it isn't natural to him, and it doesn't get the best out of him. Barnes is better at it, but his shortcoming is that his passing isn't as good as Vokes.

For as long as Gray is at Burnley and provides our pacey, powerful outlet, this will be a problem for Vokes. But Gray won't hang around forever - the noises are growing that he might want out this summer, and even if he stays another season, realistically if he continues to interest bigger clubs he'll want to have a crack sooner rather than later. In any event, Gray does make us very direct at times and isn't an easy man to partner.

I suspect Dyche is very aware of this, and I doubt he has forgotten what Vokes offers him. I'm sure it is no coincidence either that when we went 4-5-1 earlier in the season, it was with Vokes as the front man, or that we were linked in the summer with a couple of players who might be able to play in a more "Ings-type" style - the lad who went to Ajax, and Arouna Kone from Everton being two obvious ones. If Gray does leave this summer, it wouldn't surprise me to see a 4-4-1-1 with someone in that mould slotting in behind Vokes, and then we might well be glad once again of Vokes' qualities as a refined target man.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:56 pm

Wokingclaret wrote:We don't support the front players enough away from home

No need for seventeen thousand paragraphs. You've done more in a single sentence.

ksrclaret · Post by **ksrclaret** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:07 pm

I find Vokes and Gray to be a very hard watch together, especially away from home. They did well last season but neither possess enough technical ability to make the partnership work in the PL. Barnes is much better in the middle third of the pitch and we look a better, more balanced side when he plays with Gray, whereas Vokes is much better in the final third.

Vokes played his best football for us in the Championship but hasn't convinced in the PL so far, even allowing for his recovery from injury to years ago. All this goes to show that our priority this summer has to be upgrading in the forward positions.

Giftonsnoidea · Post by **Giftonsnoidea** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:07 pm

Unfortunately very one dimensional and has been found out mainly in this division.

Has scored a lot more than I thought he would though.

If we have aspirations of staying in this division we definitely need to upgrade insummer.

Cracking goal against Liverpool excepted, we might need two new first choice strikers if Gray goes which I think he might.

The whole style of our play needs to change really as we are terrible away from home. Not sure Dyche would agree.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:22 pm

I'll be beaten to death for this but given a more attacking style of play I'd have Vokes on from the start, week in week out (when on form) and bring in another to play an Ings roll. If Andre Grey stays (which I suspect he won't) he'd be perfect for out running tired legs. I'm not saying Vokes is a better forward than Grey (stats say different) but I think he has a lot more to offer as a team player than Andre, given our former style of play (which I much preferred and think SD will be slowly attempting to re-introduce as we find our feet at this level) .

welsbyswife · Post by **welsbyswife** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:20 pm

Wouldn't be an eye catching signing but I think Jonathan Walters from Stoke would fit in well with our set up. Bit more aggressive than Sam, plenty of prem experience. Irish connection and doesn't seem too happy at Stoke.

Row Z · Post by **Row Z** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:31 pm

Sam does hold the ball up well when it's a targeted ball to his chest rather than an aimless punt which we seem to have resorted to recently.

Also as has been said above, if we had wingers or fullbacks who put the ball in with as much quality as Swansea did for llorente I think Sam would be scoring much more freely. Only have to look at some of the goals he has scored for us and Wales when a decent cross is put into the box for him to attack.

I haven't got any stats on it, but the amount of times Boyd or Arfield have put a cross in this year must be minimal.

We did go through a spell of playing 4-5-1 and JBG looked dangerous cutting in from the right and playing some quality crosses in. With him and Brady it potentially bodes well but we need an improvement on Boyd and Arfield.

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Sat May 06, 2017 5:43 pm

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Sat May 06, 2017 5:45 pm

I'm quite happy with my response to that

Haven't shown myself up thankfully!

Bulclaret · Post by **Bulclaret** » Sat May 06, 2017 5:47 pm

Think he's learning from playing with Barnes.....he "won" fouls today in a very Barnesesque manner.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Sat May 06, 2017 5:49 pm

He's stepped up since getting back into the team, thought he won far more headers than he lost today

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Sat May 06, 2017 5:52 pm

If we could combine the strengths of both Sam and Ashley we would have another England player IMO.
Take a bow Sam, last week and this, you proved a menace against arguably 2 of the premier league's most organised and defensive astute coaches!!!

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Sat May 06, 2017 5:57 pm

MACCA wrote:If we could merge Sam and Ashley we would have another England player IMO.
Take a bow Sam, last week and this, you proved a menace against arguably 2 of the premier league's most organised and defensive astute coaches!!!

Four arms, four legs and two heads would be quite a bundle for any defender.

I guess FA might spoil it by changing the rules: no more than 22 legs allowed to be on the field at any one time for each team.

Well done, Sam Vokes.

UTC

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Sat May 06, 2017 5:58 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Four arms, four legs and two heads would be quite a bundle for any defender.

I guess FA might spoil it by changing the rules: no more than 22 legs allowed to be on the field at any one time for each team.

Well done, Sam Vokes.

UTC

EDIT: Perhaps I should also pick you up on Sam playing for Wales - even though he is England born.