Weak links - Lowton & Boyd

WackyClaret · Post by **WackyClaret** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:46 pm

Really need better quality than these next year, constantly breaks down with these two, and the service, decision making and distribution is very poor, sadly think Arfield has gone now as well.

Thank them for their service, and move on, onwards and upwards UTC

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:53 pm

Lowton has been outstanding recently and was one of our better players yesterday

Bin Ont Turf · Post by **Bin Ont Turf** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:54 pm

From man of the match to the scrap heap in a week.

Thanks for your contribution.

Bertiebeehead · Post by **Bertiebeehead** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:58 pm

Really wacky!

Steve1956 · Post by **Steve1956** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:59 pm

Very harsh OP,Lowton has been excellent this season,and Boyd always puts in a shift.

jurek · Post by **jurek** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:05 pm

Lowton has improved this season but not sure Boyd has.
He may always put in a shift but we need more than that.
We need someone who can create chances and score a few too.
Boyd doesn't really do that.

WackyClaret · Post by **WackyClaret** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:10 pm

Really.......not good enough at this level
Its all about opinions i guess, watch him (Lowton) closely, he has a good engine ill give him that. he defends poorly, makes poor defensive decisions, gives away silly free kicks in bad areas, and his service, final ball is absolutely shocking going forward.
Boyd - another good engine, but again poor defensively and poor going forward at this level, constantly gives the ball away or makes poor decisions going forward.
Arfield - whats happened to him this year? non existent.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:12 pm

All our players will need replacing the longer we stay up. Only Heaton and Keane maybe Gray would get snapped up by another prem club if we went down.

It was like a game of red ass yesterday as they were just shooting with our defenders on the line keeping it down to 3.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:13 pm

I've no issues with Lowton, you can read what you want into what I haven't said

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:34 pm

Boyd is out of contract in the summer isn't he?

I'm surprised the OP isn't pining for Trippier like most people seem to do on this forum.

Darthlaw · Post by **Darthlaw** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:36 pm

Lowton has really grown into the season and is easily first choice for his position. Can't fault his displays recently. Certainly not a position we need to look at replacing in the summer.

Boyd runs around a lot and was good in 2014/15.

gandhisflipflop · Post by **gandhisflipflop** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:37 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Lowton has been outstanding recently and was one of our better players yesterday

Lowton was my man of the match at hull

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:42 pm

An upgrade on both full backs wouldn't be a bad move, no matter how well they have been performing (and they have been doing pretty well of late).

Boyd, for all his work rate, just doesn't offer the quality we need in possession.

It's not a criticism of any of these players, it's natural that we should be aiming to improve wherever we can.

warksclaret · Post by **warksclaret** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:53 pm

I think SD has built a Jeckyl & Hide team that's capable of holding its own one week, can beat anyone at home most weeks, and then on other weeks totally outplayed as we were yesterday. In stepping up a gear from last year Arfield, Boyd and Vokes have struggled to put in consistently good performances. You cannot afford to carry one single player per game in the PL, and to make things worse there has often been little competition on the subs bench.

The serious "mid-table survivors" as I would call them ie Stoke , Swansea and WBA have progressively strengthened their squads , year on year. Whilst I think we have done enough (and have enough in reserve) to survive this year, I feel next year this squad would struggle to achieve the same HOME points tally. I am certain Keane will not be with us come August, and owing to the shortage of English goal scorers, someone will take a punt and convince us to sell Gray. This year should prove to be a great foundation and if we learn from it, keep SD and get the support from the Board in investing with 5 or 6 quality players we could be OK for a few years. It will allow us to thank and say good bye to a few servants who have shown since around March of last year they are not cut out for the PL.

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:58 pm

User should be called wackybaccy if he thinks Lowton is a week link. Boyd does what he is told and at times must get frustrated at being expected to be the first and last line of defence. Ok he is technically limited but I think if he was allowed to express himself more we would have a different player.

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:00 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:All our players will need replacing the longer we stay up. Only Heaton and Keane maybe Gray would get snapped up by another prem club if we went down.

It was like a game of red ass yesterday as they were just shooting with our defenders on the line keeping it down to 3.

I think you could add Ben Mee to that. Lets see what Brady turns out like and Hendricks is improving.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:33 pm

there are better wingers than we have in every single La Liga team, that's where I would be looking if we stay up

titsoutforthelads · Post by **titsoutforthelads** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:45 pm

Do you actually go to games Wacky ?

Herts Clarets · Post by **Herts Clarets** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:04 pm

Boyd is one of the reasons we create so little from midfield. No creativity, no pace. Essentially plays as a full back shield to double up with Lowton. Look at the amount of crosses Swansea's forwards had yesterday. If we could get that sort of service to Gray, Vokes and Barnes we may stand half a chance. But we resort to long balls, too straight and are meat and drink to centre halves. Until that changes, we are going to continue coming home with nowt from away games.

Chelsea had us sussed early in the season. They let us have the ball in the middle and lets be fair, we are pretty clueless with the ball. We then either tied ourselves in knots and gave the ball away or hit it long to Cahill and Zuma. They then had the pace and quality to hit us on the break with our midfield out of position. There lies our problem and it's not going to change short term.

Woodleyclaret · Post by **Woodleyclaret** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:15 pm

Not sure what game some watched yesterday .I like Boyd but him and Lowton contrived to make a complete mess of closing down.tackling and creating down our right hand side.And no Trippier isn't the answer but we need a new right back asap

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:16 pm

Herts Clarets wrote:Chelsea had us sussed early in the season.

What happened to that sussed three weeks ago?

cockneyclaret · Post by **cockneyclaret** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:19 pm

"we are pretty clueless with the ball. We then either tied ourselves in knots and gave the ball away or hit it long"

That has summed us up to a tee!!
What Swansea had yesterday were players that could take it past 2 players or happily run up the pitch a keep it on the floor.
All we do is hoof it up pitch in hope a knock down lands at one of our players feet

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:24 pm

Herts Clarets wrote:Chelsea had us sussed early in the season.

That can be said for most teams who play them at Stamford Bridge this season. We played just as well as Arsenal did.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:40 pm

They both had poor games yesterday, but there were only 3/4 players who came out with any credibility.

If it had stayed 2-2 I'm 99% sure the rating would have been much different, and we wouldn't have mutiple threads on which players are not good enough for us!

Herts Clarets · Post by **Herts Clarets** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:47 pm

ClaretTony wrote:What happened to that sussed three weeks ago?

We were at home where we are a completely different kettle of fish, as results and the league table show. As you well know i am talking about our abysmal away form. Maybe i should have used the debacle at West Brom as a better example of how we are our own worst enemy away from home. They also let us have the ball and we managed to concede at will. We are in into March And have the grand total of 2 away points. Something is clearly wrong and to me its is obvious where the problem lies.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:57 pm

Lowton has been fine. He might have done better for the first Swansea goal yesterday, by competing at the back post better, but then I thought Ward's failure to get in the same postcode as Llorente for the winner despite all the warnings we'd had was far more culpable. He's a good player, who has a decent pass on him - as he showed for our second goal - and has come on leaps and bounds defensively. He also seems to be a very diligent and honest lad and that is still underrated.

Boyd does a real job for us, and personally I'd give him another year, but I suspect that as much because of his age as anything, his days as a first choice are coming to an end. He still does a brilliant job defensively, and he's always been more of a middle distance runner than a sprinter but I do wonder if his pace off the line is waning a touch - I've noticed it a bit when he's been in possession recently and trying to beat a man, and I also thought it again when he got caught for Swansea's equaliser yesterday (albeit that others were also culpable for that goal). I'd go with Arfield next week at Anfield opposite Brady (James Milner doesn't need someone like Boyd to track him, apart from anything), and it may be that Arfield and JBG (when fit) and even Defour get an opportunity on the right flank before the season is out.

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:29 pm

Lawton has been playing well. Boyd and Vokes have to be upgraded.

warksclaret · Post by **warksclaret** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:35 pm

Have to say our defence has been outstanding. Both full backs have played their part. If anyone doubts this just look at our goals for and against in the lower half of the league. WE are set up to play as a defensive unit. With both wide men primarily defending its minimising the chances we create. This is why Brady may struggle to make an impact particularly away, and this is why Defour is somewhat restrained from playing his natural game. I can rarely see Dyche starting both Brady and Defour

ausclaret · Post by **ausclaret** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:03 pm

Boyd needs to be replaced ASAP he is just not good enough. It stands out when he gets more possession because he does nothing with it, against the top teams his work rate looks great but against weaker teams we are looking for some creativity from him, to beat his man and get some service into the box but he just cant do it and frankly never has.

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:53 am

claretspice wrote:Lowton has been fine. He might have done better for the first Swansea goal yesterday, by competing at the back post better, but then I thought Ward's failure to get in the same postcode as Llorente for the winner despite all the warnings we'd had was far more culpable. He's a good player, who has a decent pass on him - as he showed for our second goal - and has come on leaps and bounds defensively. He also seems to be a very diligent and honest lad and that is still underrated.

Boyd does a real job for us, and personally I'd give him another year, but I suspect that as much because of his age as anything, his days as a first choice are coming to an end. He still does a brilliant job defensively, and he's always been more of a middle distance runner than a sprinter but I do wonder if his pace off the line is waning a touch - I've noticed it a bit when he's been in possession recently and trying to beat a man, and I also thought it again when he got caught for Swansea's equaliser yesterday (albeit that others were also culpable for that goal). I'd go with Arfield next week at Anfield opposite Brady (James Milner doesn't need someone like Boyd to track him, apart from anything), and it may be that Arfield and JBG (when fit) and even Defour get an opportunity on the right flank before the season is out.

When was the last time Boyd took his full back on and got a cross in ? answers on a postcard please.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:21 am

claretandy wrote:When was the last time Boyd took his full back on and got a cross in ? answers on a postcard please.

Or just a stamp...

jlup1980 · Post by **jlup1980** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:22 am

DCWat wrote:An upgrade on both full backs wouldn't be a bad move, no matter how well they have been performing (and they have been doing pretty well of late).

Boyd, for all his work rate, just doesn't offer the quality we need in possession.

It's not a criticism of any of these players, it's natural that we should be aiming to improve wherever we can.

This is spot on. Boyd will be replaced I'm sure. We already have Brady as one upgrade out wide and I'm sure we'll look for another I the summer. If Hull go down will Grosicki stick with them for example? Kightly and Boyd are likely to go and I can see Scott moving on, especially if the offer from Vancouver is anywhere near the mark. We'll need to improve this area overall, but not because our players are poor, more because we should look to invest when we're at our strongest.

Full back is a funny one. Darikwa isn't really good enough but he's ok as a reserve for Lowton. We clearly need another left back though. I can see that being Sean's focus and right back staying as it is. Can't see is signing Flanagan again. That boy is Championship bound to get game time IMO.

bfc1984 · Post by **bfc1984** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:30 am

Was waiting for the first anti Lowton thread soon as we suffer another defeat,it's always his fault.Probably been our best player last 5 or 6 games.Chelsea for me was one of the performances of the season from any player this season,he was outstanding.Has for Boyd it's with the majority,you would give him a new deal etc based on his home performances he has been brilliant! But they just can't get the balance away from home,although Boyd as been better away from home till Swansea.

Castlerigg claret · Post by **Castlerigg claret** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:40 am

Lowton suffers as he is perceived to be Trippers replacement ..a fans favourite. Not sure Trips was always spot on with his defending but playing full back in the modern game isn't easy

jojomk1 · Post by **jojomk1** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:03 am

Nobody should call Lowton for the first Swansea goal on Sat.
Keane lost his man pure and simple, and not for the first time eg Deaney at Watford
The fact that Lowton is nearer to their striker when he scores does not fault him but Keane who is marking fresh air
For me, our problem is the way the manager sets up the team away from home
Our supposed wide men are asked to play far too defensively and, at the same time, very narrow
This then exposes our full backs to not only the opposing wide men but also their full backs who can come down the flanks
Swansea's second goal came about from this as Olsson went down the line past a non existent Boyd whilst Lowton was tracking Sigurdsson
The same applies to the other side of the pitch where Brady is still finding it difficult to adapt to this way of playing
At the same time, whilst playing so narrow, our wide men are also not showing for our full backs to give them a chance to put a ball down the line if under any pressure
Many on here are constantly saying that our front men are not getting the correct service and they never will whilst we adopt this way of playing

Claretmatt4 · Post by **Claretmatt4** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:39 am

Issue away from home is not down to individuals. It's down to the job they are being asked to do.

It's one thing thinking a point will do and setting up away from home as such, but we make it blindingly obvious every time that we have no intention of establishing possession.

This is what happens:

Opposing team have the ball, we sit back and invite pressure. Force them to the wings to cross -head clear back to them on edge of box OR let them shoot from distance. We block it or it goes out for a GK or corner.

When we grew t the ball we do one thing and one thing only. Tw@t it clear.

Gray has a job of bringing it out of orbit and under control. When he does he looks up only to see every Burnley player is still in his box! He loses the ball. We start again from the top.

Rinse and repeat and lose every single time.

It's a shame because performances away had really picked up lately. We let Swansea play and sat back like it was a cup game and we had drawn Chelsea away from home.

Worst thing is we can play football. We have good technical players! We battered Leicester and such Der land twice at the Turf without resorting to 90% hoof ball.

Well probably stay up anyway but we need to change things if we want that elusive away win.

UTC

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:31 am

Claretmatt4 wrote:It's a shame because performances away had really picked up lately. We let Swansea play and sat back like it was a cup game and we had drawn Chelsea away from home.

I still think, Chelsea apart, Swansea are the best team we've played away form home based on the performances we've come up against.

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:53 am

Gray often missing sitters, Vokes apparently lumbering about at a snails pace, Mee gifting opponents goals, Keane sometimes out of position, Barton blows hot and cold, Defour , hopelessly unfit and erratic, Brady, a dud who got lucky with a one off free kick, blah blah Blah.

Why isolate Boyd and Lowton ?

All the above comments in some form or other have been said about the rest of our team, we play as a team , win draw, and lose as a team.

Boyds contribution has been enormous in my opinion. Dismissing his defensive duties as if it was unimportant is a joke.
Lowton has improved too, initially ridiculously inept at crossing, wasteful even, given we create sofew chances in most matches.
He has got much better in his all round game though. We aren't a billion pound team, to be 12th in the Prem in early March is proof of how much they all have achieved collectively in a short space of time. Just for the record, when did we last have a wonderfully destructive player who took on opponents and beat them easily, then either scored, or delivered a precise cross ?
You are deluded .

oswyclaret · Post by **oswyclaret** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:54 am

With the money we have and might have next season,there is no excuse what so ever not to bring in a FEW more Quality players.

Theres a good possibility of losing one or two as well!

At the moment we have a decent squad,when fit.

But we must bring in QUALITY to improve,otherwise we all know the Struggles ahead.

Personally, a proven centre forward is a must.Another right midfielder who can take players on and can put the ball in the danger area!

Just my opinion but its not rocket science is it!

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:06 pm

too vague...who exactly are these wonderfully talented players?

Dom · Post by **Dom** » Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:41 am

Lowton is more than capable at this level and I'd be happy for him to be our first choice next season, we still need better competition than Darikwa. Ward will most likely drop to second choice next season even though for the majority of this season he's been excellent.
Boyd will need replacing, but based on performances so far he's not been that much worse than Brady. Brady needs time to bed in but from what I've seen so far £13m seems overpriced.

jlup1980 · Post by **jlup1980** » Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:00 am

Dom wrote:Lowton is more than capable at this level and I'd be happy for him to be our first choice next season, we still need better competition than Darikwa. Ward will most likely drop to second choice next season even though for the majority of this season he's been excellent.
Boyd will need replacing, but based on performances so far he's not been that much worse than Brady. Brady needs time to bed in but from what I've seen so far £13m seems overpriced.

Brady will be a key player next season. It's tough to bed in when you arrive half way through a season. He already has a goal and an assist to his name from set pieces though so I'll take that. Both of those games ended with us getting a point so they were both important contributions.

I expect us to go back for Robertson if they get relegated and I can see us trying for someone like Januzaj if he's available for 10 million as reports suggested in January. These guys would be upgrades on what we have. I don't expect us to bring in a right back though.

Then there's the Keane issue. If he goes we have Tarky and Long in the background so we clearly need another CB. On top of that I'd like to see us invest in a proven striker. That Gabbiadini lad cost Southampton 3 million more than we paid for Brady so it shows quality is available at the right price (can't believe I'm saying 16 million is ok for us!) and we'll potentially have another 25 million in the bank if Keane leaves. Add to that the sort of cash we've spent this year (30 million plus) and I can see us spending big on improvements this summer.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:14 pm

I've got no problem with Brady, he'll be fine. He just needs to adapt to the way we play, and stop trying quite so hard when he has the ball in open play. But that will come.

We will bring in at least one more wide player this summer (certainly assuming we stay up), but if we're looking in the direction of Hull then it might be Sam Clucas, rather than Grosicki, that most excited me. Seems to tick most of the boxes as a long-term upgrade on Arfield. Clucas and Brady out wide in a 4-4-2 seems to me nicely balanced, and he can also play at the front of a midfield 3.

I'll be astounded if Januzaj ends up at Burnley, incidentally.

SGr · Post by **SGr** » Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:26 pm

Boyd was the right player for the time two years ago. He isn't anymore.

Braindead · Post by **Braindead** » Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:53 pm

We need urgent replacements for a good few players:

Arfield - good player for us but limited at PL level
Boyd - a runner no doubt but we need more ability in wide areas to retain the ball, drive at the opponents and compete better
Lowton - Defensively OK but offensively garbage, we need a Trippier style full back who is a threat going forward
Barton - Good ball retention but too many misplaced passes - we need more box to box players to link up with the forwards/wide players
Mee - controversial but I still think we need a better, more capable centre half alongside Keane
Vokes - Just doesn't offer enough at this level
barnes - a nightmare to play against but ultimately not enough quality

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:56 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbQBPUOVwOA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yes, not quality enough for us.

Belial · Post by **Belial** » Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:03 pm

Lowton's been playing well - don't understand the negativity. Boyd needs some time out as he seems absolutely devoid of any creativity at the moment. Gets the ball and seems to be constantly in two minds about what to do with it. Can't knock his work rate though

Braindead · Post by **Braindead** » Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:07 pm

Wile E Coyote wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbQBPUOVwOA

yes, not quality enough for us.

I stand corrected, I am amazed given that one goal he scored two season ago that he hasn't been the subject of a £50 million bid from a top four side - I now think he is awesome, he's like Aguero/Ibrahmovic and Mike Conroy rolled into one.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:12 pm

I agree with Boyd being the weak link but I think the entire midfield is our weak link at times and the system they are forced to play in, Boyd has been a flair player at previous clubs, finding space in the hole. Now he's a running man lacking any quality at all because he's forced to sprint length after length of the pitch to get up to the forwards then back to the defensive line which is parked on our own penalty box. The gap between the defensive line and the forward line is incredibly big giving the midfielders absolutely no chance of retaining possession and having to overwork to provide quality into the final third. If we pushed the defensive line forward, the midfield line would push forward and they would end up being closer to the forward line. The midfield areas would become more compact giving the opposition less time on the ball and make us more likely to score than previously. We don't even try to contest the midfield areas at all, we just allow them the entire ball to hurt us.

Lowton has been improving IMO, his crossing is really poor but he looks a completely different player to the weak link he was at the start of the season. I'd say the 2nd striker to partner Gray is the biggest weak link.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:13 pm

Wile E Coyote wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbQBPUOVwOA

yes, not quality enough for us.

Does that mean Marvin Sordell is/was good enough for us because he scored a better goal than that of Barnes' against the same opponents?