Martin McGuinness

Sproggy · Post by **Sproggy** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:37 am

Has died. Minutes applause before Spurs?

lakesclaret · Post by **lakesclaret** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:46 am

His death will rightly be applauded throughout the land

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:53 am

Like , I suspect, the vast majority on here I will not miss him one iota for the very obvious reasons.

Without him there would still have been the violence and murder. But without him would there have been a peace agreement. Obviously we will never know. He did take brave steps forward when the peace arrived and I hope he makes his peace with his god.

lakesclaret · Post by **lakesclaret** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:05 am

: IMG_0461.JPG (58.16 KiB) Viewed 5345 times

Royals have just heard the news...

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:19 am

Could be a lively thread, this.

Tribesmen · Post by **Tribesmen** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:21 am

Without Martin there would not have been peace in the North what we have today .

box_of_frogs · Post by **box_of_frogs** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:22 am

Shame.....

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:30 am

Hopefully he wakes 2 seconds into his cremation

PaintYorkClaretnBlue · Post by **PaintYorkClaretnBlue** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:31 am

It has been suggested that he become involved in the peace process in order to avoid jail.

No matter what the reason for turning to peace he is still a murdering scumbag with blood on his hands and I, for one, won't shed any tears over him.

Awayfromburnley · Post by **Awayfromburnley** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:37 am

I don't think much more than what Hatfield Claret has written.
A man has died.
He probably was involved with killing innocent people.
Ironically he probably helped drive the peace process.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:37 am

We all know what he was, we can all take guesses at what he did or helped get done whilst he was in the IRA.

He probably found it highly amusing that former British soldiers were being witch hunted whilst his lot could walk around without a care in the world thanks to Blair and that good friday agreement.

As for peace in N.Ireland, he probably played a big part in bringing it together, even though it's still fractitious at best now.

Lord Beamish · Post by **Lord Beamish** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:41 am

Doctors say that McGuinness' condition is 'satisfactory'.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:58 am

A hero who led his forces to victory and rubbed London's government noses in it. A great tactician who not only brought peace to his land but was then elected, democratically, to lead his party. Not bad for a terrorist eh - reminds me a bit of that African bloke, Nelson somebody...

Sure, many people were killed on both sides but I guess there are plenty of Germans who believed Dresden was little more than murder or plenty of Japanese who find it difficult to accept Hiroshima and Nagasaki as acts of war.

Braindead · Post by **Braindead** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:17 am

Has somebody really called that piece of murdering **** a hero?

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:20 am

To you, "murdering ****", to others, a hero. That's how all conflicts work.

Ptangyangkipperbang · Post by **Ptangyangkipperbang** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:20 am

Braindead wrote:Has somebody really called that piece of murdering **** a hero?

Yes they certainly have i just cant work out if they are taking the **** or a dumb redneck

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:27 am

**** me, the blinkered headcases are crawling out of the woodwork. The point I'm making, clearly too complex for some on here already, that there are, in any conflict, at least two sides. It's hardly surprising, given the political leanings of many on here that the rejoicing has begun - just as others rejoiced when your heroine Thatcher died.
One man's terrorist, as they say, is another man's freedom fighter. The truth is probably somewhere in between but, hey, the board has a new pantomime villain - boo, hiss ! - move over, Blair, get outta the way, Sturgeon !

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:29 am

He's actually making a valid point, although probably trolling, to certain people McGuinness was and will be a 'hero'.

Mandela was also classed as a terrorist originally.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:30 am

He's done horrible, horrible things, but if you worked in the North during the peace process, then you will know that it wouldn't have happened without him.

Of course that doesn't excuse his crimes, but one part of the UK is a hell of a lot better place to live, and the rest of the UK doesn't have to worry about a republican terrorist attack because people like him.

He did this when first minister. Because of his background and what he did, someone like him needed to step up to make peace a reality, and he did.

He deserves thanks for that if nothing else.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opini ... 49994.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:33 am

Sidney1st wrote:He's actually making a valid point, although probably trolling, to certain people McGuinness was and will be a 'hero'.

Mandela was also classed as a terrorist originally.

You spoiled your otherwise very perceptive comment with the idiotic "trolling" accusation.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:37 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:He's done horrible, horrible things, but if you worked in the North during the peace process, then you will know that it wouldn't have happened without him.

Of course that doesn't excuse his crimes, but one part of the UK is a hell of a lot better place to live, and the rest of the UK doesn't have to worry about a republican terrorist attack because people like him.

He did this when first minister. Because of his background and what he did, someone like him needed to step up to make peace a reality, and he did.

He deserves thanks for that if nothing else.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opini ... 49994.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Absolutely and when people put aside their "Daily Mail"-style mockrage and, maybe, just maybe, learn about events leading up to and beyond the Good Friday Agreement, they may well understand both the good and the bad aspects of war and leadership and how circumstances dictate.

Corky · Post by **Corky** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:39 am

Don't worry Eddie there will be plenty like myself who fully understand what you mean. It would be easy to mention all the countless deaths brought about by our glorious British Empire. The partition of India caused millions, but that is OK as far as some people are concerned. Churchill being one and he got a state funeral.

Whilst not in any way wanting to be an apologist for the IRA and certainly its offshoots in later years how many on here would support the invasion of a country as the English did all those years ago and who wouldn't take up arms to protect your rights to freedom.

But as McGuinness finally realised you need to draw a line in the sand and adopt a peaceful approach and for that he should be congratulated.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:42 am

Right on the money there, Corky, but, of course, any attempt at being reasonable and looking at both sides of an issue tend to be doomed to failure on here...........just wait until the Heavy Mob turn up

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:43 am

Not sure the word hero fits with someone who can casually give an order to set off a bomb in a high street targeting women and children but each to their own.

Hapag Lloyd · Post by **Hapag Lloyd** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:46 am

Sidney1st wrote:He's actually making a valid point, although probably trolling, to certain people McGuinness was and will be a 'hero'.

Mandela was also classed as a terrorist originally.

That's because he was.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:56 am

claretdom wrote:Not sure the word hero fits with someone who can casually give an order to set off a bomb in a high street targeting women and children but each to their own.

That's right. Are the IRA any different from ISIS when it comes to killing innocent people, which they deliberately did on numerous occasions?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:57 am

It was forgotten or not known by millions who worshipped Mandela for the work he did in South Africa after his release.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:57 am

I told you the nutters would be along anytime now.

So anybody who bombs innocent people is guilty of terrorism ? I guess you need to determine whether someone is "innocent" or a legitimate "target"...
So when the bomb was dropped on Nagasaki, by chance and in our name, were those Japanese people going about their business "innocent" or a "target".
Or is it better to avoid emotive labels.

MrTopTier · Post by **MrTopTier** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:00 am

If you want to remember McGuinness as a hero feel free to do so, many people will.

I won't and many of his victims and their families won't either, sugar coating it by saying he was a big part of the peace process is just bullshit.

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:01 am

evensteadiereddie wrote:**** me, the blinkered headcases are crawling out of the woodwork. The point I'm making, clearly too complex for some on here already, that there are, in any conflict, at least two sides. It's hardly surprising, given the political leanings of many on here that the rejoicing has begun - just as others rejoiced when your heroine Thatcher died.
One man's terrorist, as they say, is another man's freedom fighter. The truth is probably somewhere in between but, hey, the board has a new pantomime villain - boo, hiss ! - move over, Blair, get outta the way, Sturgeon !

Yeah definitely, Hitler was a hero too.

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:06 am

Now toasting the Devil's crumpets.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:07 am

In some people's eyes, no doubt, Hitler remains a hero but he did manage to convince a country that it was down-trodden and deserved better. A skilled orator, leader and strategist of that there's no doubt. But, the victors write history and he was, therefore 100% baddie and the Allies did no wrong. That's how it worked then and that's how it works now - except McGuiness and the rest won the real war but not the media one.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:08 am

ElectroClaret wrote:Now toasting the Devil's crumpets.

You believe in the Devil ? Wow !

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:10 am

You were doing really well until you mentioned Hitler......

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:13 am

MrTopTier wrote:If you want to remember McGuinness as a hero feel free to do so, many people will.

I won't and many of his victims and their families won't either, sugar coating it by saying he was a big part of the peace process is just bullshit.

You should have stopped your sensible, objective observation after " families won't either ". The final part is nonsense - you're actually saying that he played no part in enforcing cease-fires and did not help lead the political settlement ? Dearie me.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:14 am

I won't and many of his victims and their families won't either, sugar coating it by saying he was a big part of the peace process is just bullshit.

Fine, and I fully agree that some won't be able to see past his IRA past but

Whats is better, peace or war?

To get peace, people on both sides have to make massive leaps of faith and that is what McGuinness did

Diesel · Post by **Diesel** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:29 am

A thankless task following in the footsteps of Matt Busby.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:35 am

I can understand why people would draw a line and say; 'the bombing of innocent people is murder' - though we are equally as guilty in our bombing of Iraq and Afghanistan. What I would have trouble in understanding is why anyone holding this view could be in support of Trident.

Holtyclaret · Post by **Holtyclaret** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:36 am

I met him last year, I was working at a school in Oxford. Absolute sh@thead and his kids off their heads on junk food and left to run wild. Reminded me of Edward Woodward in the equalizer, just an evil and vile version.

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:46 am

An unconvicted murderer who in later years did help the peace process. Does it write his wrongs ? Not sure anyone can be forgiven for intentionally murdering ladies and children. Nothing wrong with the cause as the British committed atrocities in Ireland for many years. A very complex situation that has affected a lot of people from all sides.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:46 am

Good riddance to a murdering scumbag. I hope he burns in he!l for all eternity and I'll open a bottle when Adams joins him.

MrTopTier · Post by **MrTopTier** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:49 am

You should have stopped your sensible, objective observation after " families won't either ". The final part is nonsense - you're actually saying that he played no part in enforcing cease-fires and did not help lead the political settlement ? Dearie me.

I am not denying he didn't play a big part in the process.

He is though personally responsible for the deaths of hundreds of innocent people and that is what I and many others will remember him for.

MrTopTier · Post by **MrTopTier** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:53 am

Whats is better, peace or war?

To get peace, people on both sides have to make massive leaps of faith and that is what McGuinness did

Peace is always better, and yes people on both sides have to make the leap, it doesn't excuse McGuinness's past though.

Bin Ont Turf · Post by **Bin Ont Turf** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:56 am

Diesel wrote:A thankless task following in the footsteps of Matt Busby.

Too soon mate, too soon.

Guich · Post by **Guich** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:01 am

The use of terrorism, fear and murder to further a political cause is pure thuggery, nothing more and nothing less. It's entirely irrelevant to point out others have done it. They were wrong too.
He knew what he was and so did everyone else. Hero? Never in this world.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:04 am

Who is excusing it?

Guich · Post by **Guich** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:06 am

I guess anyone who thinks he's a hero has let bygones be bygones to some extent

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:07 am

claretdom wrote:Not sure the word hero fits with someone who can casually give an order to set off a bomb in a high street targeting women and children but each to their own.

Obviously a divisive character, but putting bias (on both sides) to one side, there are many parallels with Mandela, who is generally regarded as a "hero" and has his own statue in Parliament Square.
The number of women and children killed as a result of the actions of both Mandela and McGuinness is not known, but it's a matter of record that Mandela pleaded guilty to over 150 offences of violence, and that he was responsible / involved in the deaths of many.
I don't personally condone violent protest that kills innocents under any circumstances, but McGuinness is one of many throughout history who have fought for a cause and eventually made a peaceful settlement. It's not a black and white issue.

Guich · Post by **Guich** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:10 am

Would you put fighting apartheid on a parallel with sectarian fighting in Ireland nil_d?

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:18 am

Alistair Campbell thinks he was 'warm and likeable'