Article 50

morpheus2 · Post by **morpheus2** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:37 am

One of my FB chums wrote this status, don't think he's a big Brexit fan...

Today Article 50 is triggered but just in case any jubilant Brexiteers are under any illusions whatsoever: we "remoaner" liberals have not gone away, we will continue to make our views clear and to hold you to account for the lies, deceit and blatant racism that you used to instill hatred and fear in the people and to gain your "victory" in the referendum of 2016. We will not forget how you debased our country in the eyes of the world in doing so and no, we will not be silenced. The UK will leave the EU in 2019 but we will keep up the fight with the aim, as passionately held as yours, that the UK will one day return to its rightful place in the family of European nations and that the shame that you brought upon us can be expunged.

Don't remember seeing a Brexit thread on here so....thoughts?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:39 am

oh you naughty boy!

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:41 am

morpheus2 wrote:One of my FB chums wrote this status, don't think he's a big Brexit fan...

Don't remember seeing a Brexit thread on here so....thoughts?

Wow morpheus2, are you friends with Nick Clegg?

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:46 am

Paul Waine wrote:Wow morpheus2, are you friends with Nick Clegg?

If so give it an hour or 2 and Nicky Von Clegg will be updating it with something along the lines of "can't believe my 80 yr old dutch mum has just been kicked out the country"

This of course won't happen but it didn't stop the dickhead Monday night so today should be no different.

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:49 am

Yay another Brexit thread, where the same posters will write the same arguments ad infinitum.

Yes, yes I know, "If you don't like it, don't read the thread" and all that palaver, but I'd prefer to come on a footy messageboard as escapism from politics.

Edit: Top 5 threads on the board at the minute are along the theme of 'Royal Marine', 'Article 50', 'Biased BBC', '2nd sweaty referendum' and 'Jihadi' which just about illustrates my point.

Pstotto · Post by **Pstotto** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:53 am

Just seen this on the Guardian website, May asking Brits to unite. I wonder if the Guardian editorial team will now take heed?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:56 am

Lies & Deceit?

So the supposed experts predicting financial catastrophe's and Osbourne stating there would have to be an emergency budget weren't lies or attempts at deceit, to convince people to vote remain?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:59 am

Sidney1st wrote:Lies & Deceit?

So the supposed experts predicting financial catastrophe's and Osbourne stating there would have to be an emergency budget weren't lies or attempts at deceit, to convince people to vote remain?

Two things. Being wrong isn't the same as lying. And 2, Brexit hasn't happened yet.

Oh and there was a massive, and unprecedented devaluation of the Pound as a result of the referendum result. OK. 3 things.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:01 am

claretdom wrote:If so give it an hour or 2 and Nicky Von Clegg will be updating it with something along the lines of "can't believe my 80 yr old dutch mum has just been kicked out the country"

This of course won't happen but it didn't stop the dickhead Monday night so today should be no different.

I was surprised in one way why no one asked why his Mum hadn't chosen to become a British citizen - and thus be entitled to vote in the referendum and, presumably in elections for parliament where her son continues as an MP.

It would also have been interesting to learn some more about Nick Clegg's trade negotiation experience - that he claimed on QT.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:02 am

If this had been a referendum on Capital Punishment, and the great British public in their infinite wisdom had voted for its re-introduction would be all have had to fall in line like the dishonourable Labour Party have.
Of course not we would have gone on fighting for what we believe to be right, and so we should now.

Brexit might turn out to be economically fine but politically it's a sad reflection on the xenophobic nature of our society, working with others doesn't come easy to this insular island.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:07 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Two things. Being wrong isn't the same as lying. And 2, Brexit hasn't happened yet.

Oh and there was a massive, and unprecedented devaluation of the Pound as a result of the referendum result. OK. 3 things.

HI IT, you are normally so disciplined on sources etc.

Don't you think that taking a +10 year forecast and turning it into a claim that everyone will be worse off by £4,500 (or whatever the number was) isn't being dishonest?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:13 am

10 year forecasts are common practice.

As for the lies, Remain didn't win the referendum based on lies. Yes, both side lied, but that doesn't mean we should be OK with it, or the result.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:15 am

I think it won't be too bad, then I remember that Fox, Smith and Davis are involved.

Its all going to go a bit Brian Laws

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:15 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Two things. Being wrong isn't the same as lying. And 2, Brexit hasn't happened yet.

Oh and there was a massive, and unprecedented devaluation of the Pound as a result of the referendum result. OK. 3 things.

So no financial catastrophe yet then?
No emergency budget either.

Nothing to panic about then despite all the supposed experts predicting doom & gloom

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:27 am

Most people are already worse off as inflation rises, not that they'd notice of course.

Britain loves to stand alone as if it is some special creation, one day it will learn to co-operate on equal footings with others, not needing to be superior or special , at present the fact that we are lead by spoilt public school boys is quite representative of the arrogant dismissive attitude we have towards others.
We are becoming a lesser nation with small - minded and selfish inhabitants, the Thatcher project is nearing fulfilment.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:30 am

Sidney1st wrote:So no financial catastrophe yet then?
No emergency budget either.

Nothing to panic about then despite all the supposed experts predicting doom & gloom

And no Brexit yet.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:32 am

It will happen, don't you worry about that.

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:32 am

Of course the current economic indicators are performing well we are still members of the EU with no restrictions on trade.

Good job there wasn't any need for an emergency budget given the shambles of the last one.

gandhisflipflop · Post by **gandhisflipflop** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:34 am

morpheus2 wrote:One of my FB chums wrote this status, don't think he's a big Brexit fan...

Don't remember seeing a Brexit thread on here so....thoughts?

I have a full house on my liberal bingo card.

CleggHall · Post by **CleggHall** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:35 am

#13 Lancaster - who is Smith, a new member of our negotiating team?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:39 am

Sorry, I've made him sound so common.

Ian Duncan-Smith!

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:55 am

Sidney1st wrote:It will happen, don't you worry about that.

Right. And until then only a ******* imbecile would say that any expected post-brexit economic downturn that hasn't happened yet, before Brexit has happened, was therefore the prediction was a lie.

Edit: two words

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:02 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I think it won't be too bad, then I remember that Fox, Smith and Davis are involved.

Its all going to go a bit Brian Laws

Wait while the Daily Mail sees his daughter

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:04 am

Has she got a good pair of pins?

The Daily Mail has a legs obsession at the moment.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:05 am

kentonclaret wrote:Has she got a good pair of pins?

The Daily Mail has a legs obsession at the moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

android · Post by **android** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:15 am

IT - if the boot was on the other foot I can see you calling someone a liar if they claimed there has been a "massive" and "unprecedented" devaluation of the pound as a result of the referendum!

You only gave to go back a couple of years - over $1.7 in summer 2014 to under $1.5 early 2015. Or how about $2 July 2008 to under $1.5 by end of that year.

What has happened to the currency is not massive or unprecedented.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:21 am

android wrote:IT - if the boot was on the other foot I can see you calling someone a liar if they claimed there has been a "massive" and "unprecedented" devaluation of the pound as a result of the referendum!

You only gave to go back a couple of years - over $1.7 in summer 2014 to under $1.5 early 2015. Or how about $2 July 2008 to under $1.5 by end of that year.

What has happened to the currency is not massive or unprecedented.

The pound had never fallen that far that fast (literally overnight), that's unprecedented. And it fell to levels not seen in 30 years, that's massive. You're wrong.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36611512" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Caballo · Post by **Caballo** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:23 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Two things. Being wrong isn't the same as lying. And 2, Brexit hasn't happened yet.

Oh and there was a massive, and unprecedented devaluation of the Pound as a result of the referendum result. OK. 3 things.

Which would you like to categorise that statement under, being wrong or lying?

LeadBelly · Post by **LeadBelly** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:38 am

I doubt that anybody's mind has been changed by any of the Brexit threads on here.
All I want to contribute is: I voted for Brexit, glad I did so, would vote the same again.
+
I can understand that people have the opposite view because it's a complex matter.
+
I wouldn't call anybody with the opposite view: idiot, snowflake, racist, bubble-dweller, xenophobe,etc, etc.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:39 am

The Daily Mail in 1973 - two faced or what?

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:43 am

Spijed wrote:The Daily Mail in 1973 - two faced or what?

Yes but it was a serious newspaper back in the day, not just Viz without the irony.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:47 am

Spijed wrote:The Daily Mail in 1973 - two faced or what?

It was a belief that it would be fine, but 40yrs later it's possibly not the best place to be, opinions change, especially over 40yrs.

They'd be 2 faced if they'd changed their minds within a couple of years.

android · Post by **android** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:50 am

Good old BBC - they don't seem very interested in the FTSE anymore.

The overnight currency movement was one thing and no doubt got young traders and reporters very excited. I thought you were talking about the bigger picture "devaluation" from pre-referendum to now which is not massive or unprecedented.

I bought some German furniture last week (last chance saloon before massive tariffs!) and was told I couldn't get a discount due to Brexit. I laughed and explained that he was talking to the wrong bloke. He came back with a normal discount as expected.

Last post from me as I have work to do.

Tribesmen · Post by **Tribesmen** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:08 am

I do think the UK will feel the pain of leaving and that happens in the pocket .

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:12 am

Tribesmen wrote:I do think the UK will feel the pain of leaving and that happens in the pocket .

Worse than Greece have for staying? Some Union that.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:15 am

Falcon wrote:Yay another Brexit thread, where the same posters will write the same arguments ad infinitum.

Yes, yes I know, "If you don't like it, don't read the thread" and all that palaver, but I'd prefer to come on a footy messageboard as escapism from politics.

Edit: Top 5 threads on the board at the minute are along the theme of 'Royal Marine', 'Article 50', 'Biased BBC', '2nd sweaty referendum' and 'Jihadi' which just about illustrates my point.

How many of your 395 posts on the adeola Friday thread were about football?

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:15 am

Cheers to Article 50

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:23 am

There will be a bit of hysteria today and then everybody will wait to see what we can come up with.

If we can somehow keep access to the single market, I reckon I put up with drunken old blokes singing songs about the war for a few years

Bin Ont Turf · Post by **Bin Ont Turf** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:33 am

KefkaClaret · Post by **KefkaClaret** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:46 am

What a day this will be, it's like going into battle without a strategy or an army.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:09 pm

Paul Waine wrote:I was surprised in one way why no one asked why his Mum hadn't chosen to become a British citizen - and thus be entitled to vote in the referendum and, presumably in elections for parliament where her son continues as an MP.

It would also have been interesting to learn some more about Nick Clegg's trade negotiation experience - that he claimed on QT.

I can help you here Paul. That would include being a senior delegate of the EU team negotiating the affiliation of both Russia and China to the World Trade Organisation, and doing a similar job in negotiating various deals between the EU and Russia.

Whether or not you like Clegg otherwise is besides the point, but there's no British public figure with more experience of negotiating trade deals, so he's worth listening to on this point.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:11 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:There will be a bit of hysteria today and then everybody will wait to see what we can come up with.

If we can somehow keep access to the single market, I reckon I put up with drunken old blokes singing songs about the war for a few years

There are a few rumblings in this mornings papers from insiders suggesting that the government are slowly distancing themselves from the 'hard brexit' that they've been talking up for the last few months.

It will be interesting to see what happens over the next two years. Was all that talk of walking away without a deal just empty bluster to please the likes of the Daily Mail? Or will they really be willing to damage our economy to keep 52% of the voters happy?

I guess the real stuff starts now. Hopefully they will be pragmatic and will make concessions where necessary.

pushpinpussy · Post by **pushpinpussy** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:13 pm

Looking forward to being out of the EU. About time. Close the borders and safeguard our beautiful country.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:19 pm

You know, I had you down as a "remain" voter.......

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:31 pm

Just a couple of facts - and these are facts - that ought to be borne in mind:

1. No-one has ever accomplished what we are about to try and do. In fact, no-one has ever accomplished the task of negotiating a free-trade deal in 2 years, leaving aside the parallel process of agreeing exit terms. No-one has ever tried to do this without actually having any trade negotiators, of any level of experience, to call upon whatsoever. So we are taking on an interesting challenge.

2. The much publicised 300bn pa savings for the first year after we no longer have to pay the EU budget have been spent. In fact they were spent in the week after brexit, because this is how much extra we had to spend to sell long-dated government bonds in the week after Brexit as a consequence of the vote. We have so far spent quite a lot of years' savings in subsequent debt auctions. This of course ignores the fact that the figure was entirely bogus in the first place, and the consequences of leaving on anything other than identical terms to those we have currently on tax revenues.

3. Even David Davis has said immigration is likely to go up in years after Brexit because the economy will remain beholden to immigrant labour. Partly, this may well be a choice made by the government which we will control. However, I think all of Australia, India and China, plus other countries, have indicated that the price of a free trade deal with Britain (when we are free to negotiate them ourselves, using all those negotiators we don't have) will be, guess what, free movement of their people to the UK. In effect, we're proposing to swap one set of free movement rules for several others (which may have individual caps, but in aggregate those caps will be high enough to be pretty meaningless).

Food for thought, whichever way you voted.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:37 pm

Will those countries allow free movement of British people to their countries?
Or do we already have that?

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:39 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Two things. Being wrong isn't the same as lying. And 2, Brexit hasn't happened yet.

Oh and there was a massive, and unprecedented devaluation of the Pound as a result of the referendum result. OK. 3 things.

Here's a 10-year graph of the pound versus the Euro. Can you take a look at it, especially around 2008, and still say that the fall in the pound was unprecedented?

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from= ... R&view=10Y

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:43 pm

Depends on what is negotiated Sidney. But they want it because they think their people and prosperity will benefit from it. Not sure whether we will regard it as such a potentially valuable right. But we don't already have it (limited visa rights aside).

As for the doom and gloom thing - I've spoken to a number of experts about this at conferences and the like, and the general consensus is that the only thing George Osborne got wrong was trying to suggest that the financial catastrophe would happen immediately that the UK voted to leave - it stands to reason that it will happen more gradually, once the terms on which we will leave gradually become clear (or investment decisions are influenced by the fact they don't). If he'd forecast the same consequences, but over a 10 year period, he'd have been absolutely in line with where the majority of experts (I know we don't like them, but they know more than you or I) are.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:53 pm

claretspice wrote:I can help you here Paul. That would include being a senior delegate of the EU team negotiating the affiliation of both Russia and China to the World Trade Organisation, and doing a similar job in negotiating various deals between the EU and Russia.

Whether or not you like Clegg otherwise is besides the point, but there's no British public figure with more experience of negotiating trade deals, so he's worth listening to on this point.

Hi claretspice,

I've taken a look at Wikipedia - I assume Nick Clegg will ensure that his wikepedia record is accurate.

Nick Clegg was born in 1967 - so he joined the European Commission at the age of 27. (This is listed by wiki as "career outside politics"). I've underlined the bit where Clegg was "in charge of EC negotiating team" re WTO and China and Russia.

"In April 1994, he took up a post at the European Commission, working in the TACIS aid programme to the former Soviet Union. For two years he was responsible for developing direct aid programmes in Central Asia and the Caucasus, worth €50 million. He was involved in negotiations with Russia on airline overflight rights, and launched a conference in Tashkent in 1993 that founded TRACECA—an international transport programme for the development of a transport corridor for Europe, the Caucasus and Asia. Vice-President and Trade Commissioner Leon Brittan then offered Clegg a job in his private office, as a European Union policy adviser and speech writer. As part of this role, Clegg was in charge of the EC negotiating team on Chinese and Russian accession talks to the World Trade Organisation."

I've noticed in my interactions with European Commission youngsters with limited experience being put "In charge" of areas that they know little about.
I didn't get the feeling when Clegg spoke on QT about his "trade negotiation" experience that there was any depth to his claim. I understand why now.

You may be right, claretspice, that there are no British public figures with more experience - but there will be many who've worked in the private sector are better placed to deliver what we all what.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:59 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
You may be right, claretspice, that there are no British public figures with more experience - but there will be many who've worked in the private sector are better placed to deliver what we all what.

I'm not sure that is right. Donald Trump used this logic, and has wasted no time in learning that experience of doing private business deals bear absolutely no resemblance to doing multi faceted deals with politicians who are accountable to their electorate.