Gibraltar

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conyoviejo
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Gibraltar

Post by conyoviejo » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:35 pm

Is it time to let go ?

starting_11
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Re: Gibraltar

Post by starting_11 » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:45 pm

Only if you're Spanish
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Re: Gibraltar

Post by ElectroClaret » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:46 pm

What about the apes? Don't they get a say?
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Re: Gibraltar

Post by Sidney1st » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:52 pm

Tough call really.

I suppose they could have a referendum after Brexit.

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by Bin Ont Turf » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:55 pm

Unfortunately with this leaving the EU lark the French, Spanish and Germans will want to try an invade us again.

We will need Gibraltar as it's the gateway to the Mediterranean, which will come in handy when blockading French and Spanish ports and saving non African swimmers from the sea.

Besides, the monkeys don't speak Spanish in Gibraltar.

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by Spijed » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:55 pm

conyoviejo wrote:Is it time to let go ?

Wasn't it 94% wanted to stay in the EU?

dsr
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Re: Gibraltar

Post by dsr » Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:03 pm

It was 99% wanted to stay British at the last referendum. I suspect they'd rather be British and out than Spanish and in.
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Re: Gibraltar

Post by BennyD » Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:23 pm

No, let's keep it as its a good place to shoot Irish 'freedom fighters'.
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Re: Gibraltar

Post by Barrowfordclaret » Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:26 pm

We made a big mistake giving them Minorca back

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by ElectroClaret » Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:30 pm

Yeah. French bastards.

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by Acting Claret » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:11 am

It was always bound to unravel. Someone had to be first. Just happens to be us.
Silly games by the EU.
Gibraltar is not on the table.
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Spijed
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Re: Gibraltar

Post by Spijed » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:13 am

What happens if Spain throw their toys out of the pram and don't let the islanders easy access into Europe?

What's the other travel options for them?

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by Damo » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:33 am

Sidney1st wrote:Tough call really.

I suppose they could have a referendum after Brexit.
Why should they have to wait until after Brexit?
Surely they can have one right now.
And then another straight after if their first Minister doesn't get the result they personally want.
Come on England, stop depriving these people of their freedom
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Re: Gibraltar

Post by Sidney1st » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:35 am

Spijed wrote:What happens if Spain throw their toys out of the pram and don't let the islanders easy access into Europe?

What's the other travel options for them?
Do the same as everyone else, hop into a dingy, float into the Med and wait to get picked up.
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conyoviejo
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Re: Gibraltar

Post by conyoviejo » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:48 am

ElectroClaret wrote:What about the apes? Don't they get a say?
No,but they have been spotted packing their suitcases.

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by bfcjg » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:54 am

They can have Gibraltar if we can have the Canary Isles.
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Re: Gibraltar

Post by CleggHall » Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:38 am

Send down the gunboats like we did with the Falklands, show 'em Theresa! :D

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by BennyD » Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:32 am

Barrowfordclaret wrote:We made a big mistake giving them Minorca back
We should have kept Calais as well.

Devils_Advocate
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Re: Gibraltar

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:46 am

The Brexit brigade won't give two shits bout people in Gibraltar with their I'm alright jack attitude to the whole issue

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by Roosterbooster » Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:53 am

My Spanish friends get very annoyed when I say they can have Gibraltar, if they give Melilla and Ceuta back to Morocco

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by Colburn_Claret » Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:57 am

EU on a fishing expedition. I doubt they really want Gibraltar back for the Spanish, it just distracts people from what they are really after.

There is going to be a hell of a lot of bluffing and counter bluffing taking place over the next 2 years. Take a moments pause, breath deeply and ignore. The final package will be exactly what both parties feel their bottom line is, and won't move an inch from today. It's just that they can't advertise what their bottom line is.

If I were you I would turn off the media and come back in 2 years time.

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:58 am

Roosterbooster wrote:My Spanish friends get very annoyed when I say they can have Gibraltar, if they give Melilla and Ceuta back to Morocco
I'm guessing if their friends of yours it was probably more a tiresome response than one of annoyance

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by BennyD » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:00 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:The Brexit brigade won't give two shits bout people in Gibraltar with their I'm alright jack attitude to the whole issue
Starting to sound a bit bitter DA. Life's too short, so suck it up and get with the programme.

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by Roosterbooster » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:02 pm

Damo wrote:Why should they have to wait until after Brexit?
Surely they can have one right now.
And then another straight after if their first Minister doesn't get the result they personally want.
Come on England, stop depriving these people of their freedom
Actually it was the Westminster government who chose self-determination referenda as a hallmark of freedom.
Just as Sturgeon wasn't happy with the Scottish Referendum result, Westminster are scared of the outcome of a further Scottish referendum, and potentially another Gibraltan referendum. If they are so absolute about following the result of the EU referendum, then they should also allow self- determination to be revisited now the factors have changed. The vote may change hugely with Britain out of the EU. If they really care about self- determination and freedom, they wouldn't be concerned about allowing further referenda. But they only allowed these referenda as they were confident of the outcome.

Freedom by self-determination is only allowed if the self-determination also lines up with Westminster's preferences, it seems.

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by Roosterbooster » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:05 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:I'm guessing if their friends of yours it was probably more a tiresome response than one of annoyance
sigh

Very grown up DA

P.S.

*they're*

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:08 pm

BennyD wrote:Starting to sound a bit bitter DA. Life's too short, so suck it up and get with the programme.
Gibraltar or Brexit don't have any impact on my life but I neither care or pretend to care about these things. You're one of the frothing idiots who constantly gets your knickers in a twist and posts on this topic so jog on

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by BennyD » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:50 pm

You obviously do care or you wouldn't be posting on this thread. So, jog on too you frothing idiot.

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:52 pm

Don't confuse caring with passing some time to waste away a dull Sunday

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by Bin Ont Turf » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:57 pm

Don't confuse playing devils advocate with posting like a w***er all morning.
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BennyD
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Re: Gibraltar

Post by BennyD » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:57 pm

I wouldn't dream of it. :D

thatdberight
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Re: Gibraltar

Post by thatdberight » Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:56 pm

Roosterbooster wrote:Actually it was the Westminster government who chose self-determination referenda as a hallmark of freedom.
Just as Sturgeon wasn't happy with the Scottish Referendum result, Westminster are scared of the outcome of a further Scottish referendum, and potentially another Gibraltan referendum. If they are so absolute about following the result of the EU referendum, then they should also allow self- determination to be revisited now the factors have changed. The vote may change hugely with Britain out of the EU. If they really care about self- determination and freedom, they wouldn't be concerned about allowing further referenda. But they only allowed these referenda as they were confident of the outcome.

Freedom by self-determination is only allowed if the self-determination also lines up with Westminster's preferences, it seems.
Westminster aren't scared of a Gibraltarian (that's the correct word) referendum. You know, almost literally, nothing if you think a 99:1 result is going to swing the other way.

As for self-determination. You're very keen on it. Presumably you agree that Scotland should cede the border region if, should Scotland as a whole ever vote for independence, it's likely the Borders would vote to stay in the UK? Or is it only important when you're bitching about something and think it helps your argument?

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by dsr » Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:21 pm

Roosterbooster wrote:Westminster are scared of the outcome of a further Scottish referendum, and potentially another Gibraltan referendum. If they are so absolute about following the result of the EU referendum, then they should also allow self- determination to be revisited now the factors have changed. The vote may change hugely with Britain out of the EU. If they really care about self- determination and freedom, they wouldn't be concerned about allowing further referenda. But they only allowed these referenda as they were confident of the outcome.

Freedom by self-determination is only allowed if the self-determination also lines up with Westminster's preferences, it seems.
I don't think Westminster were confident about the outcome of the Scottish referendum. They were confident about the EU referendum, but were wrong.

As for Gibraltar:
1st Referendum, 1967: Britain 12,138 - Spain 44.
2nd Referendum, 2002: Britain 17,900 - Joint Sovereignty 187.

Do you think the government is looking at the 300%+ increase in the vote and worrying they might lose the next one? I doubt it. Some of that increase has to be because the prospect of joint sovereignty is marginally less frightening than the prospect of being Spanish.

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by Goalposts » Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:22 pm

BennyD wrote:No, let's keep it as its a good place to shoot Irish 'freedom fighters'.
oh dear oh dear...another poster who in one sentence says more about them than a 1000 other posts

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by BennyD » Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:48 pm

Well, at least it saves me writing another 999 posts. However, travelling over 1000 miles with the intention of killing an unarmed army band makes you wonder how that equates to Irish 'freedom'. I'm just glad they got snotted before they could complete their 'mission'.

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by Roosterbooster » Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:00 pm

thatdberight wrote:Westminster aren't scared of a Gibraltarian (that's the correct word) referendum. You know, almost literally, nothing if you think a 99:1 result is going to swing the other way.

As for self-determination. You're very keen on it. Presumably you agree that Scotland should cede the border region if, should Scotland as a whole ever vote for independence, it's likely the Borders would vote to stay in the UK? Or is it only important when you're bitching about something and think it helps your argument?
dsr wrote:I don't think Westminster were confident about the outcome of the Scottish referendum. They were confident about the EU referendum, but were wrong.

As for Gibraltar:
1st Referendum, 1967: Britain 12,138 - Spain 44.
2nd Referendum, 2002: Britain 17,900 - Joint Sovereignty 187.

Do you think the government is looking at the 300%+ increase in the vote and worrying they might lose the next one? I doubt it. Some of that increase has to be because the prospect of joint sovereignty is marginally less frightening than the prospect of being Spanish.
Maybe a 99:1 vote is too strong to switch the other way. But the only reason the Gibraltar : Spain border is open is because the EU made Spain keep it open. 96% voted to stay in the EU in Gibraltar. And the governing referendum was 15 years ago. If Gibraltarians (thanks for the correction) are concerned about their jobs, given the huge number who work in Spain, then they might consider being in the EU and working more important than being British.

As for confidence in referenda, the confidence was there when they were announced, but this soon changed. The UK government wasn't expecting Scotland to vote to leave, but panicked at the last minute when it realised the polls were so close. When the announcement was made regarding the EU referendum, most people thought it would be a landslide to stay in.

3 years ago, you would have been thought almost mad if you had said Theresa May would be PM in a majority government opposite Corbyn, with Trump president and us leaving the EU. All were considered highly unlikely. But this is the point. Politics is more unpredictable than ever. Theresa May isn't going to gamble like Cameron did. She can easily say no. And she will.

When it comes down to self-determination, it is the UK government who was so keen on using this reason as to why both Gibraltar and the Falklands should be British. At the time they were confident of the result. They had nothing to lose.

Now the results are much less predictable, they are less willing to offer these referenda. It's not me using this reasoning of self-determination to help my argument. I am just pointing out that Westminster uses this argument when it suits them, and avoids it when it doesn't. I think it would be crazy to suddenly ask everybody, "who do you want to govern you?" If the Scottish Borders suddenly all voted for a party whose manifesto said they wanted to break away from Scotland if it became independent, then this would become grounds for discussion.

As it stands, I think there are 2 questions.

For Scotland: Would you rather be British and not in the EU, or independent and in the EU?
For Gibraltar: Would you rather be British and not in the EU, or have joint sovereignty and be in the EU?

These questions have not been asked.

Honestly, I don't think there is a huge rush to ask these now. Nobody knows how things are going to pan out over the next 2-5 or even 10 years, and having a referendum before the pieces of they puzzle have fallen into place would be rash.

But the message should be clear and consistent. If the governemnent has allowed British territories the right to self-determination in the past, it has to allow this in the future, whether or not they are happy with the result.

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by Rowls » Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:09 pm

Spain have a history of messing around with the border even in the EU.

I doubt much will change and this is just the EU showing their usual incapacity for proper diplomacy. The ruined any chance Cameron had of winning the referendum by giving zero in way of concessions and now they're titting around with inconsequential issues like Gibraltar instead of negotiating properly.

It'll bite their bum once again. If this is the best they can do, they can go ahead and do it.

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by dsr » Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:37 pm

Roosterbooster wrote:Maybe a 99:1 vote is too strong to switch the other way. But the only reason the Gibraltar : Spain border is open is because the EU made Spain keep it open. 96% voted to stay in the EU in Gibraltar. And the governing referendum was 15 years ago. If Gibraltarians (thanks for the correction) are concerned about their jobs, given the huge number who work in Spain, then they might consider being in the EU and working more important than being British.

As for confidence in referenda, the confidence was there when they were announced, but this soon changed. The UK government wasn't expecting Scotland to vote to leave, but panicked at the last minute when it realised the polls were so close. When the announcement was made regarding the EU referendum, most people thought it would be a landslide to stay in.

3 years ago, you would have been thought almost mad if you had said Theresa May would be PM in a majority government opposite Corbyn, with Trump president and us leaving the EU. All were considered highly unlikely. But this is the point. Politics is more unpredictable than ever. Theresa May isn't going to gamble like Cameron did. She can easily say no. And she will.

When it comes down to self-determination, it is the UK government who was so keen on using this reason as to why both Gibraltar and the Falklands should be British. At the time they were confident of the result. They had nothing to lose.

Now the results are much less predictable, they are less willing to offer these referenda. It's not me using this reasoning of self-determination to help my argument. I am just pointing out that Westminster uses this argument when it suits them, and avoids it when it doesn't. I think it would be crazy to suddenly ask everybody, "who do you want to govern you?" If the Scottish Borders suddenly all voted for a party whose manifesto said they wanted to break away from Scotland if it became independent, then this would become grounds for discussion.

As it stands, I think there are 2 questions.

For Scotland: Would you rather be British and not in the EU, or independent and in the EU?
For Gibraltar: Would you rather be British and not in the EU, or have joint sovereignty and be in the EU?

These questions have not been asked.

Honestly, I don't think there is a huge rush to ask these now. Nobody knows how things are going to pan out over the next 2-5 or even 10 years, and having a referendum before the pieces of they puzzle have fallen into place would be rash.

But the message should be clear and consistent. If the governemnent has allowed British territories the right to self-determination in the past, it has to allow this in the future, whether or not they are happy with the result.
That's a very long argument to complain about the lack of referenda in the last 9 months. Historically, referenda are rare - now you're complaining that Scotland haven't had one for two and a half years and it'll be two years before the next, and Gibraltar haven't had one since last Friday?

Gibraltar have a visceral attitude that they're British, and a practical attitude that the Spanish establishment is a bunch of tossers. They don't love the EU enough to overturn those arguments. And if Spain does close the border again, they'll find (very much like last time) that is doesn't make the Gibraltarians love them more, and that any economic problems in Gibraltar would be caused by all the Spaniards who work in Gibraltar losing their jobs, not the other way round.

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by conyoviejo » Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:31 pm

Well,that esculated quick.. :lol: :lol:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ael-fallon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by box_of_frogs » Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:53 pm

I'm happy to give the Gibs a(nother) referendum on what they want to do, let the Spanish know that, but we'll only do it if they give Catalonia a referendum........

What!? No deal for the Catalonians?...........
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Re: Gibraltar

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:08 pm

Roosterbooster wrote:As it stands, I think there are 2 questions.

For Scotland: Would you rather be British and not in the EU, or independent and in the EU?
For Gibraltar: Would you rather be British and not in the EU, or have joint sovereignty and be in the EU?

These questions have not been asked.

Honestly, I don't think there is a huge rush to ask these now. Nobody knows how things are going to pan out over the next 2-5 or even 10 years, and having a referendum before the pieces of they puzzle have fallen into place would be rash.

But the message should be clear and consistent. If the governemnent has allowed British territories the right to self-determination in the past, it has to allow this in the future, whether or not they are happy with the result.
Hi Rooster,

re Gibraltar, I'm sure we all understand that Gibraltar wants to remain British whatever the circumstances. if Gibraltar was ever part of Spain they would be agitating for a referendum to become independent (from Spain). They aren't asking for a referendum on independence from UK. Of course, Gibraltar already has most of it's own government. I'm pretty certain there aren't any Gibraltarian MPs in Westminster (Gibraltar is part of an MEP constituency). I don't think Gibraltar has a "Barnet" formula.

Scotland and IndyRef2 - a separate thread.
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