Who took our Longside and pulled it down?

Pstotto · Post by **Pstotto** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:33 am

Who took our Longside and pulled it down? Who on the Longisde wanted it pulled down and why?

I don't recall any 'unsafe standing' do you? Who had a problem on the Longside standing so that it was pulled down? Who needs 'safe standing' instead of how it was? I don't recall any problem or any safety issue, regarding how to stand up, did you?

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:58 am

Did smell of piss though, didn't it?

RammyClaret61 · Post by **RammyClaret61** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:13 am

I think the bloke responsible was Colin Moynihan.

Jamesy · Post by **Jamesy** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:29 am

I can remember Leeds taking our longside circa 1974.

Croydon Claret · Post by **Croydon Claret** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:20 am

It was always empty by full time as most people had migrated across to the Bee Hole End to make a quick exit

Down_Rover · Post by **Down_Rover** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:27 am

It was pretty unsafe when Celtic came

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:30 am

RammyClaret61 wrote:I think the bloke responsible was Colin Moynihan.

He was just one of Thatcher's yes men who was Minister of Sport at the time of Hillsborough, but the person responsible for us moving to all seater was Lord Justice Taylor.

Pstotto · Post by **Pstotto** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:38 am

The Bradford Fire disaster happened in an all-seater part of the ground and they didn't ban all-seater stadiums, because the folk couldn't get out of the way in time and I never heard of this Taylor bloke standing on the Longside and complaining.

As far as the Celtic match, I was there and I didn't have any problem standing on the Longside and I heard of no deaths or injuries as a result of 'unsafe standing.' I'm pretty sure if the Longside had been all-seater that night then there might have been some serious injury as the fans would not have been able to swiftly move away from the 1066-like barrage of missiles that came over.

tybfc · Post by **tybfc** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:42 am

I wonder how many games Lord Justice Taylor goes to week in week out?

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:49 am

tybfc wrote:I wonder how many games Lord Justice Taylor goes to week in week out?

Was a Newcastle fan I believe but he passed away of a brain tumour ten years ago in his mid-60s.

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:13 am

Wasn't the actual demolition carried out by Killilleas? (Sp)

Seem to recall their name plastered around the Turf quite often.

Juan Tanamera · Post by **Juan Tanamera** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:44 am

Killellea's did the steelwork.
As for the Longside being safe at the Celtic match, did you stay there while most sensible people cleared off ASAP?

Steve1956 · Post by **Steve1956** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:56 am

Down_Rover wrote:It was pretty unsafe when Celtic came

The only time I've nearly shat myself at the Turf in forty odd years of going...frightening.

Burnley Ace · Post by **Burnley Ace** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:03 am

Pstotto wrote:The Bradford Fire disaster happened in an all-seater part of the ground and they didn't ban all-seater stadiums, because the folk couldn't get out of the way in time

That was in a wooden stand, wasn't part of the Taylor report, had nothing to do with the crowd not being able to get out the way and indeed some allege that it wasn't an accidental fire.

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:04 am

Without looking it up, was it only a recommendation from Taylor and interpretation by the FA that resulted in a blanket all seater policy throughout for the top clubs?

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:20 am

Pstotto wrote:The Bradford Fire disaster happened in an all-seater part of the ground and they didn't ban all-seater stadiums, because the folk couldn't get out of the way in time and I never heard of this Taylor bloke standing on the Longside and complaining.

Shame you feel it necessary to make light of such disasters - I can confirm that following Bradford all smoking was banned in wooden stands.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:20 am

South West Claret. wrote:Without looking it up, was it only a recommendation from Taylor and interpretation by the FA that resulted in a blanket all seater policy throughout for the top clubs?

The recommendation was for all seater through all four divisions - the football authorities relaxed that so as not to include the bottom two divisions of the Football League.

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:27 am

Thanks CT so did the FA have descretion on their interpretation of the recommendation?

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:21 am

Pstotto wrote:The Bradford Fire disaster happened in an all-seater part of the ground and they didn't ban all-seater stadiums, because the folk couldn't get out of the way in time and I never heard of this Taylor bloke standing on the Longside and complaining.

Bradford fire was result of the same problem as Kings Cross Underground fire in Nov-1987: rubbish had been allowed to build up underneath wooden structure. In both cases it was the difficulties of getting away from the fire and smoke that resulted in the deaths.

All of the wooden escalators in the tube have been removed since the Kings Cross fire - and all the flammable materials above the escalators. Smoking has also been banned. And, all the rubbish removed, rather than being swept "under the carpet."

I'm pretty sure that health and safety certificates for all sporting venues will also now depend on keeping the areas underneath stands clear of waste paper and other rubbish. Pity this wasn't part of the procedures before the fires.

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:35 am

I think Lord Taylor had shares in a company that produced pile cream FACT.

wilks_bfc · Post by **wilks_bfc** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:38 am

Juan Tanamera wrote:Killellea's did the steelwork

In the wrong place

oswyclaret · Post by **oswyclaret** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:36 pm

ElectroClaret wrote:Wasn't the actual demolition carried out by Killilleas? (Sp)

Seem to recall their name plastered around the Turf quite often.

No it wasn,t killelleas that did the demolition,it was another demolition firm from the valley,think they were called Howard Stott.

I actually reinforced all the concrete that went into the footings,bee hole as well!

Hasn,t fallen down yet!

Think main contractor was Linpave from lincolnshire.

Seems an age when I was on that job!!!

Pstotto · Post by **Pstotto** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:40 pm

I don't think it's making light of the Bradford Disaster at all, the point I'm making is that seating is no more safe than standing, it's how it's used and not the thing in itself, as was the case with the Leppings Lane. That's not trivial. Forest Green are currently building a wooden stadium.

Burnley's occupancy of the Leppings Lane in 74 didn't end up in 96 deaths. In fact it wasn't an issue of standing per se but of crowd control, ticketing and the fencing. Nothing to do with standing at all.

Roosterbooster · Post by **Roosterbooster** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:50 pm

wilks_bfc wrote:In the wrong place

I've heard a rumour that the Jimmy Mac and JH can't be joined together because they were built incorrectly. Does anyone know if this is true?

As for missing the longside, I think we all look back with great fondness. But the view over the top of the BL to the hills from JHU is spectacular. And it may well eventually give rise to a safe standing area behind the goal at the cricketfield end. If we had this entire end for Burnley fans I think it would be wonderful. If I could make 2 realistic changes to Turf Moor, they would be 1) improve disabled access and viewing 2) give us the entire cricket field stand (and change to safe standing if/ when this is allowed

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:54 pm

Yes, oswyclaret, i remember the name Linpave now.
They built the two new main stands as you say.(i think)

Great memories of the LS, but let's face it, it had to go.

wilks_bfc · Post by **wilks_bfc** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:58 pm

Roosterbooster wrote:I've heard a rumour that the Jimmy Mac and JH can't be joined together because they were built incorrectly. Does anyone know if this is true?

As for missing the longside, I think we all look back with great fondness. But the view over the top of the BL to the hills from JHU is spectacular. And it may well eventually give rise to a safe standing area behind the goal at the cricketfield end. If we had this entire end for Burnley fans I think it would be wonderful. If I could make 2 realistic changes to Turf Moor, they would be 1) improve disabled access and viewing 2) give us the entire cricket field stand (and change to safe standing if/ when this is allowed

If you stand in the CFS and look along the alongside to the JMc you can see the 2 stands overlapping by some distance

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:12 pm

People get misty eyed about the Longside but as it was it was a dangerous place to be. At the time the stand was pulled down it wasn't that dangerous but merely because we couldn't fill it, but I remember seeing many being crushed against barriers, including old folk and kids when the idiots at the back charged down and pushed those in front of them creating a domino effect. I remember coming off many a ground where you were so tightly packed in you couldn't see you feet let alone the floor as you left - not good on a terrace.

I would like to see safe standing introduced at grounds but remembering what it was like I can't honestly say they were wrong to ban it at the time.

CarletonClaret · Post by **CarletonClaret** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:51 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Bradford fire was result of the same problem as Kings Cross Underground fire in Nov-1987: rubbish had been allowed to build up underneath wooden structure. In both cases it was the difficulties of getting away from the fire and smoke that resulted in the deaths.

All of the wooden escalators in the tube have been removed since the Kings Cross fire - and all the flammable materials above the escalators. Smoking has also been banned. And, all the rubbish removed, rather than being swept "under the carpet."

I'm pretty sure that health and safety certificates for all sporting venues will also now depend on keeping the areas underneath stands clear of waste paper and other rubbish. Pity this wasn't part of the procedures before the fires.

The most important point to come out of that, in my mind, is the fact that there now must be stewards on exit gates at all times.

Sadly, a number of fans escaped the fire only to get to the exit gates to find them padlocked with no one there. They then had no escape.

Pstotto · Post by **Pstotto** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:01 pm

In spite of the mass volume of fans on the Longside, it was relatively quick to get out off and for the crowd to disperse. The current model of 'safe standing' coming from Germany, is of regimented channels, in effect the fan 'disabled' with more apparatus than a Virgin Trains toilet.

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:26 pm

The Longside (more by luck than by planned design I suspect) was a actually pretty safe when compared to a lot of terracing around at the time. The barriers were well placed and spaced, there were plenty of gangways and it wasn't that steep either. Yes, people did surge sometimes, especially after goals, but it was nowhere near as dangerous as other places we went to and stood. Toilets were bloody dangerous mind! People caught all sorts! The atmosphere and noise under the Longside was electric when people were up for it and it was full in there. (The famous Kippax at City was absolutely identical and built by the same people I assume)

fatboy47 · Post by **fatboy47** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:52 pm

i presume lots of people are being crushed to death every week on all the grounds where terraces are still in use

CnBtruntru · Post by **CnBtruntru** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:18 pm

Bob the bloody Builder has a lot to answer for.

Pstotto · Post by **Pstotto** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:06 am

As far as I know there has only been one death by crushing at Turf Moor in over 125 years and that was during the record attendance against Huddersfield in the early 20s.

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:55 am

I am a traditionalist, by heart, however..

If you look at what Burnley had to pay to replace the Longside & Bee-Hole End, it was an absolute bargain. Grants were available at the time, indirectly from the Government, and the Club took full advantage of them. If the Board at the time hadn't redeveloped, we'd have been playing to a two sided Ground in our 1st Premier League season, in front of less than 9,000.
I wonder what a Contractor would charge now to remove both those terraced bankings, and replace with all seater stands. Including grants, the total cost was £5.3 m, for both stands...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turf_Moor

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:35 am

Roosterbooster wrote:I've heard a rumour that the Jimmy Mac and JH can't be joined together because they were built incorrectly. Does anyone know if this is true?

It's not true.

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:28 am

[quote="Roosterbooster"]I've heard a rumour that the Jimmy Mac and JH can't be joined together because they were built incorrectly. Does anyone know if this is true?
Bit late to ask for our money back I would have thought! (Wonder if Clive Holt still has the receipt?)

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:36 am

They could be joined, but it would mean partial demolition/dismantling of the jimmy mac stand.

Tribesmen · Post by **Tribesmen** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:50 am

claretandy wrote:They could be joined, but it would mean partial demolition/dismantling of the jimmy mac stand.

Well that's settled , we will invite the Celtic lads down for a game and get it dismantling on the cheap

Foulthrow · Post by **Foulthrow** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:58 am

I bet it would be more cost effective to knock down both the JM and JH and produce a more modern stand that can incorporate more 'executive' seating. Let's face it a lot of these 'new' grounds and developments that occurred in the late 90s are looking pretty tired when you compare them with what can be produced nowadays.

Venkys4eva · Post by **Venkys4eva** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:19 pm

They took it away..

https://youtu.be/q6AuxJeOOXs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:33 pm

claretandy wrote:They could be joined, but it would mean partial demolition/dismantling of the jimmy mac stand.

That's not true. The two stands could be joined with an extension of one butting up against the existing side wall of the other. It's true that we couldn't seamlessly join each row of seats but we wouldn't need to.

ten bellies · Post by **ten bellies** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:13 pm

Rowls wrote:Did smell of piss though, didn't it?

Only in the 2nd half.

Claretforever · Post by **Claretforever** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:39 pm

Rileybobs wrote:That's not true. The two stands could be joined with an extension of one butting up against the existing side wall of the other. It's true that we couldn't seamlessly join each row of seats but we wouldn't need to.

I don't think that would look right though, and from an OCD point of view then Andy is right; to have it 'looking right' then I'm sure part of that JM stand would need to be worked on.

Pstotto · Post by **Pstotto** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:37 pm

If there were to be a re-introduction of standing areas, in the corners for example, or a new stand to replace the Bob Lord, like it was before, with an enclosure in front, then I don't think the German model of 'safe standing' is the right option. It's an insult to humanity, in my opinion.

Wokingclaret · Post by **Wokingclaret** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:24 pm

Clarets4me wrote:I am a traditionalist, by heart, however..

If you look at what Burnley had to pay to replace the Longside & Bee-Hole End, it was an absolute bargain. Grants were available at the time, indirectly from the Government, and the Club took full advantage of them. If the Board at the time hadn't redeveloped, we'd have been playing to a two sided Ground in our 1st Premier League season, in front of less than 9,000.
I wonder what a Contractor would charge now to remove both those terraced bankings, and replace with all seater stands. Including grants, the total cost was £5.3 m, for both stands...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turf_Moor

Yes, but as cheap as it was it nearly sent us in to administration twice....