Defour

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:42 pm

I'm not sure that Gray has offered enough regularly enough to automatically warrant being fit into the side ahead of Defour.

I'm not actually convinced that both can't be in the side together, either. A 4-3-3 or 4-1-3-1 would accommodate both players and Hendrick could push forward to support, he has the engine for it and he's far better in the opposition half of the field.

We hear a lot of talk about playing percentages but we don't seem to be playing them ourselves. I'm not convinced that now is the time to be adopting new formations, but we might as well at least try something on the road because our percentages there are bloody awful.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:53 pm

Bump, 50 replies on a topic created by me just isn't good enough. I have to bump this to receive more replies to feed my huge ego, hopefully you all understand.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:56 pm

Only too well.

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:00 pm

In the games I've seen, I'm unaware of this great lack of athleticism that means he couldn't play in a two with hendrick. Bartons not exactly kante in the athleticism department, and not playing at his best. Add to that Defours ability to create chances, keep the ball and deliver a good set piece means I'm at a loss as to why he's not been given a chance. It's not rocket science it's football, and guess what, Defour's better at it than anyone else at the club.
And if we did play a 5 it's not as if we're sacrificing a manner of playing that's creating us a load of chances. From what I've seen, humping it to Barnes usually ends up as a free kick to the opposition and occasionally us.

Jakubs Tash · Post by **Jakubs Tash** » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:53 pm

claretspice wrote:The reason Defour isn't in the team is perfectly simple. It is very difficult to get him in the same team as Gray, because Gray needs a target man alongside him

I'm trying to think of who the target man at Brentford was....when Gray played up front with Jota, Pritchard and Judge behind him. Who was it?

Harleston Claret · Post by **Harleston Claret** » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:13 pm

I think Defour and Barton would be a great fit in a midfield 3 with Hendrick giving Brady and gudmunson licence to bomb on and support Gray.

RVclaret · Post by **RVclaret** » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:14 pm

Harleston Claret wrote:I think Defour and Barton would be a great fit in a midfield 3 with Hendrick giving Brady and gudmunson licence to bomb on and support Gray.

That would be far too creative a line up for us, unfortunately.

HiroshimaClaret · Post by **HiroshimaClaret** » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:46 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Given we've only won 10 I think that's highly unlikely, and a lot of those wins were actually won once he'd gone off.

Yeah, that`s right! A case in point was against Hull after Defour scored his worldie. To quote...

`He was just inside his own half when he received the ball from fellow central midfielder Dean Marney and the way he took the ball as he turned to beat his opponent brought a huge response from the stands. He then moved forward before unleashing a brilliant, curling shot from fully 30-yards which hit the back of the net past the helpless Eldin Jakupovic.`

Defour was then replaced by Hendrick and...oh wait! No! Sorry I was wrong. We went on to concede an injury-time equaliser scored by Snodgrass and with Defour not on the pitch, we dropped 2 points.

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:54 pm

We do get a lot of the "he can't last ninety minutes" type comments. The beginning of the season and injuries aside, he could have and probably should have been left on the field longer.

It's this sort of player that Dyche has to show that he can get the most out of and fit into a team, without it having a negative impact, if he really wants to progress as a manager.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:52 am

DCWat wrote:I'm not sure that Gray has offered enough regularly enough to automatically warrant being fit into the side ahead of Defour.

I'm not actually convinced that both can't be in the side together, either. A 4-3-3 or 4-1-3-1 would accommodate both players and Hendrick could push forward to support, he has the engine for it and he's far better in the opposition half of the field.

We hear a lot of talk about playing percentages but we don't seem to be playing them ourselves. I'm not convinced that now is the time to be adopting new formations, but we might as well at least try something on the road because our percentages there are bloody awful.

4131 could accomodat both. But we lack creativity with 11 men never mind 10.

HiroshimaClaret · Post by **HiroshimaClaret** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:16 am

Harleston Claret wrote:I think Defour and Bitarton would be a great fit in a midfield 3 with Hendrick giving Brady and gudmunson licence to bomb on and support Gray.

Been saying it for a week or so now. Looks to be the best balanced, combative and most creative midfield possible. And guess what!? If it works...(say it quietly) it could become the new FRAMEWORK (ssssshhhhhh!). Not sure Allardyche will be planning for it next weekend though.

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:55 am

Weve missed dean marney........

GoldenClaret · Post by **GoldenClaret** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:55 am

A centre midfield pairing of Defour and Hendricks needs to be played against Crystal Palace. We need more creativity in the middle in order to get that elusive away win.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:56 am

DCWat wrote:We do get a lot of the "he can't last ninety minutes" type comments. The beginning of the season and injuries aside, he could have and probably should have been left on the field longer.

It's this sort of player that Dyche has to show that he can get the most out of and fit into a team, without it having a negative impact, if he really wants to progress as a manager.

I would say that's a spot on analysis

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:58 am

tim_noone wrote:Weve missed dean marney........

massively

jlup1980 · Post by **jlup1980** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:26 am

ClaretTony wrote:Of the 16 starts, we've won 8, drawn 1 and lost 6 - I was merely pointing out that we went on to win four of those eight after he'd been substituted with the scores level.

I thought Dyche liked his stats? Winning 8 from 16 starts is a pretty good stat for me. I'd happily take that ratio over the remaining 4 games if he's chosen!!

Belgianclaret · Post by **Belgianclaret** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:42 am

KRBFC wrote:How can he not get it this team? He must hate it here, I can only imagine Defour during a hoofball training session. I'm surprised at the number of defensive posters on here making excuses for Dyche when anyone dares question him. Well, here I am questioning him, Marco Silva would have Defour dictating the tempo of a game at home, carving teams open with his quality from a deep position. Criminal how he cant get in this side when he's fit and proof of Dyches intentions in terms of not passing the ball.

Since you accused me of having an obsession with Defour it appears you now have become his staunchest supporter.

Anyhow, at least (some) credit to you for seeing the light

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:48 am

quoonbeatz wrote:defour can play in a 442.

i think he's better in a midfield 5 but he can play in a 442.

Derfour can play, end of!

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:41 am

DCWat wrote:We do get a lot of the "he can't last ninety minutes" type comments. The beginning of the season and injuries aside, he could have and probably should have been left on the field longer.

It's this sort of player that Dyche has to show that he can get the most out of and fit into a team, without it having a negative impact, if he really wants to progress as a manager.

This comment still assumes another manager in the PL currently would have got more out of him this season, and if thats the case theyll be lining up to take him this summer. The fact that if he's been linked with a move anywhere, its to the Middle East or China suggests other managers have reservations too, as does the fact none of them wanted to sign him last summer. It suggests he's got flaws that meant he was available to the club with the lowest budget in the Premier League.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:55 am

Jakubs Tash wrote:I'm trying to think of who the target man at Brentford was....when Gray played up front with Jota, Pritchard and Judge behind him. Who was it?

Fair comment. Target man was probably the wrong expression in that context. What i meant was Gray needs someone alongside him to hold the ball up, link play and let the midfield join in. Robbie Blake could do that - he was excellent with his back to goal, but he wasn't a target man. My impression of those 3 Brentford players is that all of them were more adept with their back to goal than any of Defour, Brady, Boyd and Hendrick, who have variously been touted for the role off Gray on this and similar threads.

I have said before that i could see Arfield playing off Gray in the right set up, because he is better taking the ball with his back to goal and holding it and laying it off. But all the teams i've seen on here have 11 players who all want to face the oppositions goal at all times and that just does not work. Hendrick kept getting pelters for getting dispossessed when he played in that advanced role earlier in the season, which perhaps shows the short memories folk have.

And even if we did play Arfield or Robbie Blake there, it wouldnt work for burnley because our attacks are based upon hitting a target man early and playing from there. We cant rip all of that up now, it involves a complete change of drill. We tried it once and got smashed by Leicester.

So if we play 451, i suspect it will be with Gray on the bench. I can see the logic of that, but lets be clear - it involves leaving out a player sought after by a number of other premier league clubs, including one in the top 4, to accommodate a player whose suitors appear to be in the middle east and china.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:16 pm

Jakubs Tash wrote:I'm trying to think of who the target man at Brentford was....when Gray played up front with Jota, Pritchard and Judge behind him. Who was it?

Good point, Gray did well against Man United on his own upfront. Yes, I know Barnes was supposedly playing with him but he really wasn't, infact I don't think Barnes was on the pitch.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:19 pm

Harleston Claret wrote:I think Defour and Barton would be a great fit in a midfield 3 with Hendrick giving Brady and gudmunson licence to bomb on and support Gray.

Absolutely agree but id like to see Westwood for Barton maybe, providing Westwood is as good defensively as I think he is. If hes bobbins defensively and I'm living in dream land then yes Barton. I would have picked Westwood for ball retention, passing ability.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:25 pm

claretspice wrote:This comment still assumes another manager in the PL currently would have got more out of him this season, and if thats the case theyll be lining up to take him this summer. The fact that if he's been linked with a move anywhere, its to the Middle East or China suggests other managers have reservations too, as does the fact none of them wanted to sign him last summer. It suggests he's got flaws that meant he was available to the club with the lowest budget in the Premier League.

Keep making these excuses for Dyche, you're fooling nobody with these paragraphs. Defour's the most talented player at the club regardless of how many essays you type. I think its pretty obvious the "reservations", his injury record. Not that I think it shows other PL managers had reservations, as far as I know only Leicester were in for N'Golo Kante, now he'd one of the best midfielders in world football.

Steve1956 · Post by **Steve1956** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:27 pm

Just on a different slant about DEFOUR,why is a six letter word so bloody hard to spell?

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:38 pm

KRBFC wrote:Keep making these excuses for Dyche, you're fooling nobody with these paragraphs. Defour's the most talented player at the club regardless of how many essays you type. I think its pretty obvious the "reservations", his injury record. Not that I think it shows other PL managers had reservations, as far as I know only Leicester were in for N'Golo Kante, now he'd one of the best midfielders in world football.

Kante was virtually unknown. Defour was an international player with that profile who previously been linked with a Man United and had played for two of europe's biggest clubs. The comparison is bunk. Noone else in the premier league wanted or wants Defour. There's a reason for that and his injury history is only part of the story.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:49 pm

claretspice wrote:

Kante was virtually unknown. Defour was an international player with that profile who previously been linked with a Man United and had played for two of europe's biggest clubs. The comparison is bunk. Noone else in the premier league wanted or wants Defour. There's a reason for that and his injury history is only part of the story.

Well guess what, nobody else in the Premier League wants Joey Barton or Ashley Westwood either and that's who he's up against. So what's your point?
Non of us know if any other PL club wants Defour and if they don't, non of us know the reason why so I'd love to hear your ''its only part of the story'' theory.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:58 pm

Correct. Noone did want Westwood or Barton. Im not arguing we arent limited in that department. What im saying is that Defour isnt the deity you in particular a setting him up to be. Hes a talented but flawed footballer with a poor injury record and no record of coping with the intensity of playing at this level in a central midfield 2.

My theory is that Dyche originally dropped Defour because he was struggling physically with players bursting beyond him and other managers had spotted and begun to play on this, and because the team needed the option in behind the Gray gives. It better explains why Dyche dropped a player he'd previously liked enough to make his marquee signing than the theory that Dyche just doesn't value creativity - because it doesn't rest on the premise our manager is a neanderthal who stubbornly refuses to do whats best for the team.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:19 pm

claretspice wrote:Correct. Noone did want Westwood or Barton. Im not arguing we arent limited in that department. What im saying is that Defour isnt the deity you in particular a setting him up to be. Hes a talented but flawed footballer with a poor injury record and no record of coping with the intensity of playing at this level in a central midfield 2.

My theory is that Dyche originally dropped Defour because he was struggling physically with players bursting beyond him and other managers had spotted and begun to play on this, and because the team needed the option in behind the Gray gives. It better explains why Dyche dropped a player he'd previously liked enough to make his marquee signing than the theory that Dyche just doesn't value creativity - because it doesn't rest on the premise our manager is a neanderthal who stubbornly refuses to do whats best for the team.

Are you talking about Defour, Hendrick, Westwood or Barton? All four are ''talented but flawed footballers''

''dropped Defour because he was struggling physically with players bursting beyond him and other managers had spotted and begun to play on this''
Wait, are you talking about Martial breezing past Barton to score? or the time Barton gave the goal away at Everton? which occasion?

''no record of coping with the intensity of playing at this level in a central midfield 2.''
Why would he have a record of coping with playing in the PL in a central midfield 2? He'd never actually played in the PL when we bought him, same as Hendrick who is coping very well. Defour played in a two against Liverpool at home, we won. I believe he played in a 2 against Hull, scored and was subbed then we concede. He's proven he can play in a two.

The stats posted above prove we're better with Defour in the team than without, your essays and theories don't change that.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:25 pm

KRBFC wrote:The stats posted above prove we're better with Defour in the team than without, your essays and theories don't change that.

It's weird that Dyche would put his livelihood on the line by not playing the team that has the best chance of winning points. He should start using stats.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:27 pm

Rileybobs wrote:It's weird that Dyche would put his livelihood on the line by not playing the team that has the best chance of winning points. He should start using stats.

Who needs stats when we've got Defour? but Yeah, 1 win in 12 is not a pretty statistic neither is 0 away wins all season long. Hopefully we see a completely random team selection for the final two away games, I won't be happy if we see the same 442 garbage that hasn't won us an away game all season long.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:27 pm

You keep on ranting and raving my man. You keep disregarding the point and making your own. Players get a honeymoon period, then they get worked out. Defour got worked out a bit in the Autumn. Our other players have their weaknesses and will get exploited too. But Dyche clearly thinks they get exploited less.

Those stats are so obviously flawed it isnt funny incidentally. Apart from anything else, Defour has played significantly more home games than away.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:29 pm

KRBFC wrote:Who needs stats when we've got Defour? but Yeah, 1 win in 12 is not a pretty statistic neither is 0 away wins all season long. Hopefully we see a completely random team selection for the final two away games, I won't be happy if we see the same 442 garbage that hasn't won us an away game all season long.

Who cares if you're happy you self obsessed prat?

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:34 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Who cares if you're happy you self obsessed prat?

Feed my ego, i'm hungry.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:46 pm

3427 views from a topic by myself just doesn't cut the mustard.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:48 pm

KRBFC wrote:The stats posted above prove we're better with Defour in the team than without, your essays and theories don't change that.

You're wrong again.

The sample size isn't big enough to prove anything.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:51 pm

Tall Paul wrote:You're wrong again.

The sample size isn't big enough to prove anything.

Parkvilla posted this above

''When Defour starts won 10 drew 2 lost 7
When Defour doesn't start won 2 drew 6 lost 12''

Certainly suggests we're better at picking up points when Defour's in the team.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:56 pm

KRBFC wrote:Parkvilla posted this above

''When Defour starts won 10 drew 2 lost 7
When Defour doesn't start won 2 drew 6 lost 12''

Certainly suggests we're better at picking up points when Defour's in the team.

Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. There's certainly not enough data there to prove anything.

As spice already alluded to, what is the home/away split of the games he started/didn't start? What was the quality of the opposition? There are too many other variables to draw any meaningful conclusions.

Jambounchained · Post by **Jambounchained** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:01 pm

I'd be absolutely astounded if Defour ever started for us again.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:04 pm

Tall Paul wrote:Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. There's certainly not enough data there to prove anything.

As spice already alluded to, what is the home/away split of the games he started/didn't start? What was the quality of the opposition? There are too many other variables to draw any meaningful conclusions.

Considering how useless we are away from home with or without Defour, I don't consider the home/away split relevant at all.

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:09 pm

The gift that keeps on giving

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:11 pm

KRBFC wrote:Considering how useless we are away from home with or without Defour, I don't consider the home/away split relevant at all.

Of course it's relevant. I thought it was obvious, but I suppose I'll have to spell it out for you.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that we lose every away game and win every home game no matter what we do. What if every game Defour started was a home game and every game he didn't start was away from home? We'd have a great record when he started and a terrible one when he didn't, but the relevant factor wouldn't be whether Defour started, it'd be where the game was played.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:17 pm

KRBFC wrote:Parkvilla posted this above

''When Defour starts won 10 drew 2 lost 7
When Defour doesn't start won 2 drew 6 lost 12''

Certainly suggests we're better at picking up points when Defour's in the team.

In statistics it is taught that Correlation does not imply Causation.

Confusing Cause and Effect is a fallacy that has the following general form:

- A and B regularly occur together.
- Therefore A is the cause of B.

This fallacy is committed when a person assumes that one event must cause another just because the events occur together. More formally, this fallacy involves drawing the conclusion that A is the cause of B simply because A and B are in regular conjunction (and there is not a common cause that is actually the cause of A and B). The mistake being made is that the causal conclusion is being drawn without adequate justification.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:17 pm

Tall Paul wrote:Of course it's relevant. I thought it was obvious, but I suppose I'll have to spell it out for you.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that we lose every away game and win every home game no matter what we do. What if every game Defour started was a home game and every game he didn't start was away from home? We'd have a great record when he started and a terrible one when he didn't, but the relevant factor wouldn't be whether Defour started, it'd be where the game was played.

My point of ''we're better at picking up points with Defour than without him'' would still be correct.

Commy · Post by **Commy** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:24 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Given we've only won 10 I think that's highly unlikely, and a lot of those wins were actually won once he'd gone off.

I think FA Cup games are included.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:27 pm

KRBFC wrote:My point of ''we're better at picking up points with Defour than without him'' would still be correct.

No, wrong. You'd still be correctly identifying two pieces of information, but you'd still be incorrectly asserting a definitive causal link between one and the other.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:29 pm

claretspice wrote:No, wrong. You'd still be correctly identifying two pieces of information, but you'd still be incorrectly asserting a definitive causal link between one and the other.

I'm happy to be proven wrong, if you fancy attempting to do so.

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:29 pm

Regardless of the relevant stats etc, everyone can see that Defour is our best (midfield) player.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:31 pm

Right_winger wrote:Regardless of the relevant stats etc, everyone can see that Defour is our best (midfield) player.

Well, clearly that is incorrect.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:32 pm

KRBFC wrote:My point of ''we're better at picking up points with Defour than without him'' would still be correct.

Are you acting stupid or are you actually this thick?

Reverse it then, what if Defour started every away game and didn't start every home game?

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:38 pm

KRBFC wrote:I'm happy to be proven wrong, if you fancy attempting to do so.

The point here, you wally, is that noone can prove a connection.