.

Of course the difficulty is going to be selling that message in the Brexit-supporting, Labour heartlands across the North & Midlands.

Labour's position on Brexit finally explained

Which is clearly more decisive than Teresa May or may not Rowls.

If it be your will wrote:Labour are very clear that no deal is the worst possible deal.

This is nonsense. suppose the only deal the 27 countries will accept involves EU countries having unfettered access to the UK market, but the UK having restrictions/tariffs on exports to the EU market, and the UK having to pay £billions for the privilege?

What the Labour party is saying, whether they mean it or not, is that they will accept any terms, no matter how bad, that the EU chooses to offer. And even if they don't mean it, it's a pretty stupid opening position to start negotiations with.

Rowls wrote:Labour's position on Brexit finally explained

Explain what that stupid post is supposed to mean.

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If it be your will wrote:"Labour's position on Brexit finally explained"

Can you summarise The Tories position on this, Rowls, like I have for Labour, in their words? It would be useful for the debate.

I believe I heard our esteemed PM fully articulate this as: "Brexit means Brexit."

How much more clarity do you need?

As somebody who has voted Labour in most elections since 1971 and was a party member as recently as Dec 2016, I have the immediate following observations:

"We do not believe that leaving the EU means severing our ties with Europe" - same with everybody/all parties sin't it?

Saying "no deal is the worst possible deal" before you go into negotiations is utterly naive. (I'm determined to buy your house/car under any circumstances, could you lower the price please though).

"A Labour Government who will reset our approach to Brexit, rebuild relations with the EU..." = We'll do anything Frau Doktor Merkel tells us.

It's my day off If it be your will.

I waste far too much time here anyway.

I don't think you're listening properly to Vicki or giving her considered thoughts on the matter enough respec.

She's telling you how it is.

As generally a labour supporter I think the tories are the best bet for a British brexit deal.

Hopefully the tories get walloped in 5 years time.

Lab had the chance to influence Brexit in the House of Commons, and choose not to.

They can stick whatever they like in their manifesto, they are going to get a kicking from the pro-Brexit Lab voters and from pro-remain Lab voters.

During the 80's didn't Labour include in their election manifest something about leaving the EU or the EEC?

Blair fought the 1983 General Election on a promise to withdraw from the then EEC, what comes around ...goes around!

well he would say that, wouldn't he.

Theresa May campaigned for Remain in 2016

If that was May campaigning - must try harder!

This EU Labour appeasement and sucking up to foreigners and actually being more on the side of the EU than the UK is tantamount to treason and not only that but there's a moevment among them called 'Open Britain'' where they are trying to deliberately target the MPs who were on the side of Brexit, regardless of their consituents.

It's a case of Open Britain legs akimbo and ripe for a shafting via EU legislation and the welfare state and then all pay more taxes to provide for them.

It's also worth noting the demographics of the Le Pen support in France, it's where immigration is the most. Says it all.

Is there any point anyone from Labour saying anything while clown Corbyn is still leading the party to oblivion.

CleggHall wrote:If that was May campaigning - must try harder!

She did more campaigning for the UK to remain in the EU than she's doing to win a general election.

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Bacchus wrote:I believe I heard our esteemed PM fully articulate this as: "Brexit means Brexit."

How much more clarity do you need?

Yeah, but what colour of Brexit?

If it be your will wrote: "Brexit means Brexit" - whatever that means.

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Which part of Brexit means Brexit are you struggling with the most?

Er, Pstotto, I think the map of france you got your figures from is a bit wrong.

Areas of high unemployment voted for Le Pen, but the cities voted for Macron

Which part of Brexit means Brexit are you struggling with the most?

The bit were its a bit more complicated than people are prepared to accept.

Sidney1st wrote:Which part of Brexit means Brexit are you struggling with the most?

Mostly the colours. I think once we know the colours of Brexit we'll be much more informed.

If it be your will wrote:So far in this campaign, it seems to me Labour are, step-by-step, setting out their positions in all areas of government (in what are extremely challenging circumstances) very clearly, while the Tories are left floundering with nothing more to offer than "Brexit means Brexit" - whatever that means.

And if Labour do this, then the conservatives hardly need to bother campaigning.

The reason the Conservatives can't set out the results of their Brexit negotiations because they don't know what (if anything) the EU countries will concede over and above World Trade Organisation rules. It's easier for Labour, because as they've just announced their agreement is based on what they will concede on the UK's behalf; not what the EU will concede.

UpTheBeehole wrote:Theresa May campaigned for Remain in 2016

lol hardly...

Plenty of pictures out there prove otherwise CM

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Lancasterclaret wrote:Plenty of pictures out there prove otherwise CM

She was hardly a vocal figure though, certainly gave the impression as a reluctant remainer at best, bit like Corbyn actually.

Above all, the European Economic Community takes away Britain's freedom to follow the sort of economic policies we need.' : Tony Blair, writing in his personal manifesto when standing for Parliament in Beaconsfield in 1982.



`We'll negotiate a withdrawal from the EEC which has drained our natural resources and destroyed jobs.': Tony Blair, pledging his opposition to the EEC when standing for Parliament in Sedgefield in 1983.



`On the day we remember the legend that St George slayed a dragon to protect England, some would argue that there is another dragon to be slayed: Europe.' : Tony Blair, in patriotic and vote winning mood on St George's Day 1997 in an interview with 'The Sun' newspaper - exactly 20 years ago.



`I am a passionate pro-European. I always have been.': Tony Blair, speaking to the EU Parliament in 2005.

Was the lure of loads of money and power just too great?

A liar never to be trusted. Never.

Tony Bliar- Remoaner -in-chief, and a very dark, sinister man

If it be your will wrote:I'm assuming it means a clean break. No deal. Followed by a dystopian free-market wasteland devoid of workers' rights, regulations, or environmental protection. Whatever it means, I'm certain it will be one that suits these chaps, anyway:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 24548.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But then I don't really know. They have yet to articulate what it actually means.

It means leaving the EU, it's not difficult.

What you want to know is all the ins and outs of any possible deal, but they can't confirm anything yet because they haven't started negotiations have they?

All current EU laws/legislation will be enshrined into UK Law/legislation, so workers rights and environmental protection will still be in place, they've mentioned this before.

I know some people are desperately hoping the Tories chuck all workers rights in the bin, but it isn't going to happen just yet, if at all.
I doubt they'd get away with it nowadays.

Labour will chuck out all the usual guff, but they have no real clue what they're up to right now.
They can't even make the same comments about stuff, Corbyn says one thing and the it could be at odds to the official party line.

RingoMcCartney wrote:Above all, the European Economic Community takes away Britain's freedom to follow the sort of economic policies we need.' : Tony Blair, writing in his personal manifesto when standing for Parliament in Beaconsfield in 1982.



`We'll negotiate a withdrawal from the EEC which has drained our natural resources and destroyed jobs.': Tony Blair, pledging his opposition to the EEC when standing for Parliament in Sedgefield in 1983.



`On the day we remember the legend that St George slayed a dragon to protect England, some would argue that there is another dragon to be slayed: Europe.' : Tony Blair, in patriotic and vote winning mood on St George's Day 1997 in an interview with 'The Sun' newspaper - exactly 20 years ago.



`I am a passionate pro-European. I always have been.': Tony Blair, speaking to the EU Parliament in 2005.

Was the lure of loads of money and power just too great?

A liar never to be trusted. Never.

Tony Bliar- Remoaner -in-chief, and a very dark, sinister man

He is a man who would never, ever let morality prevail against ambition.

I honestly think he was, and still is evil; and that is not a word I use lightly.

Labour ruling out no deal is like a big union telling its Employer that its balloting for strike action but rules out strike action before the vote ! Labour still hasn't learned, absolutely nothing to say about curbing immigration, they are going to get massacred, and rightly so.

.

If it be your will wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if Corbyn broadly agrees with you both!

Don't trigger them.

Imploding Turtle wrote:Don't trigger them.

You've started using the word trigger a lot recently.

Burnley are set to try to sign Adnan Januzaj using Labour negotiation tactics:

John B tells the Burnley express, prior to sitting down with the Old Trafford club:

We'll initially offer £10 million but if United are not interested we will increase our offer by increments of £2.5 million up to £20 million until Man U accept.
If they are still unwilling to accept, we will offer Michael Keane as part of the deal including payments towards his contract if Man U still will not budge.
Also, we will look to make the payments over five years however we can move to six months if Man U push us hard.

Finally, once Man U have agreed the deal we will put it to the supporters whether we should conclude the deal or withdraw from the transfer.

Seems a good way to negotiate to me...

ClaretMoffitt wrote:He is a man who would never, ever let morality prevail against ambition.

I honestly think he was, and still is evil; and that is not a word I use lightly.

Evil is surely too strong. Amoral, possibly; but someone who is evil is someone who actively wants other people to suffer.

FWIW I don't think he is amoral either. I think Blair did care about people, perhaps not as much as he should, but the problem was that what he genuinely thought was best for everyone was that Tony Blair should be Prime Minister. He never noticed that when he was there he wasn't doing much good.

Anyway, all politicians have to support the party line occasionally, when they don't agree with it. If 200 conservatives plus the party leader agree with nationalising the mines and 100 don't, the 100 have to campaign for election on the basis that they will nationalise the mines - unless they are so passionate about it that they actively campaign against. But they do have to be passionate to go against party lines; usually it's more a matter that they would prefer to go the other way, but they're willing to accept the majority view.

Of course, when he said he had always been passionately pro-EU, that was as big a lie as you can get.

Listening to the radio today on the campaign trial, there is nothing, nothing at all to suggest that the Cons won't get at least a 100+ majority.

Though its safe to say that May is as wooden as wood can possibly be.

But it doesn't matter at all in this election

Quite depressing to be honest

ClaretMoffitt wrote:You've started using the word trigger a lot recently.

"Started" isn't the correct word, but your lot have given me a lot more opportunities to use it.

.

RingoMcCartney wrote:Above all, the European Economic Community takes away Britain's freedom to follow the sort of economic policies we need.' : Tony Blair, writing in his personal manifesto when standing for Parliament in Beaconsfield in 1982.



`We'll negotiate a withdrawal from the EEC which has drained our natural resources and destroyed jobs.': Tony Blair, pledging his opposition to the EEC when standing for Parliament in Sedgefield in 1983.



`On the day we remember the legend that St George slayed a dragon to protect England, some would argue that there is another dragon to be slayed: Europe.' : Tony Blair, in patriotic and vote winning mood on St George's Day 1997 in an interview with 'The Sun' newspaper - exactly 20 years ago.



`I am a passionate pro-European. I always have been.': Tony Blair, speaking to the EU Parliament in 2005.

Was the lure of loads of money and power just too great?

A liar never to be trusted. Never.

Tony Bliar- Remoaner -in-chief, and a very dark, sinister man

it’s a question of what is best for Britain’s future. And I think if we look at the challenges we will face, the challenges of security, of trade and the economy, but actually looking ahead, Britain’s prosperity, the opportunities for people living here in the UK will be more secure, will be better if we’re inside the European Union. (Theresa May - 24 April 2016)

“I think the economic arguments are clear,” she said. “I think being part of a 500-million trading bloc is significant for us. I think, as I was saying to you a little earlier, that one of the issues is that a lot of people will invest here in the UK because it is the UK in Europe.

“If we were not in Europe, I think there would be firms and companies who would be looking to say, do they need to develop a mainland Europe presence rather than a UK presence? So I think there are definite benefits for us in economic terms.” (Theresa May - 26 May 2016)

(Obviously there are a whole host of quotes {into double figures I think} where Theresa May rules out calling a general election but I assume we just misunderstood phrases like "There should be no general election until 2020,")

Good job we've got someone in charge who tells the truth now.

ClaretMoffitt wrote:He is a man who would never, ever let morality prevail against ambition.

I honestly think he was, and still is evil; and that is not a word I use lightly.

We're not the only ones pal.

Millions around the world agree with us.

aggi wrote:it’s a question of what is best for Britain’s future. And I think if we look at the challenges we will face, the challenges of security, of trade and the economy, but actually looking ahead, Britain’s prosperity, the opportunities for people living here in the UK will be more secure, will be better if we’re inside the European Union. (Theresa May - 24 April 2016)

“I think the economic arguments are clear,” she said. “I think being part of a 500-million trading bloc is significant for us. I think, as I was saying to you a little earlier, that one of the issues is that a lot of people will invest here in the UK because it is the UK in Europe.

“If we were not in Europe, I think there would be firms and companies who would be looking to say, do they need to develop a mainland Europe presence rather than a UK presence? So I think there are definite benefits for us in economic terms.” (Theresa May - 26 May 2016)

(Obviously there are a whole host of quotes {into double figures I think} where Theresa May rules out calling a general election but I assume we just misunderstood phrases like "There should be no general election until 2020,")

Good job we've got someone in charge who tells the truth now.

Teresa May doesnt have the blood of 250,000 innocent Iraqi chidren on her hands..............

Lancasterclaret wrote:Listening to the radio today on the campaign trial, there is nothing, nothing at all to suggest that the Cons won't get at least a 100+ majority.

Though its safe to say that May is as wooden as wood can possibly be.

But it doesn't matter at all in this election

Quite depressing to be honest

Facts haven't mattered in this country for quite some time. Nothing Corbyn can say or do will stop the conservative press painting him as some kind of far-left extremist and the idiots that read their nonsense will lap it all up in much the same way the American voters lapped it up that Hillary was the devil, or that Obama was a failure.

Politics has become a team sport, and the right-wing (some on the left but especially the right) seem to love anything that hurts the other side, the fact that it's untrue doesn't matter; to them it's just their side playing 4d super-chess.

"The totalitarian mass leaders based their propaganda on the correct psychological assumption that, under such conditions, one could make people believe the most fantastic statements one day, and trust that if the next day they were given irrefutable proof of their falsehood, they would take refuge in cynicism; instead of deserting the leaders who had lied to them, they would protest that they had known all along that the statement was a lie and would admire the leaders for their superior tactical cleverness." —Hanah Arendt

She probably would prefer to remain in the EU, but going against a referendum result would probably cost her the PM job.

dsr wrote:Evil is surely too strong. Amoral, possibly; but someone who is evil is someone who actively wants other people to suffer.

FWIW I don't think he is amoral either. I think Blair did care about people, perhaps not as much as he should, but the problem was that what he genuinely thought was best for everyone was that Tony Blair should be Prime Minister. He never noticed that when he was there he wasn't doing much good.

Anyway, all politicians have to support the party line occasionally, when they don't agree with it. If 200 conservatives plus the party leader agree with nationalising the mines and 100 don't, the 100 have to campaign for election on the basis that they will nationalise the mines - unless they are so passionate about it that they actively campaign against. But they do have to be passionate to go against party lines; usually it's more a matter that they would prefer to go the other way, but they're willing to accept the majority view.

Of course, when he said he had always been passionately pro-EU, that was as big a lie as you can get.

I disagree, I think its appropriate to define him as evil. He genuinely didn't care if people suffered, died or had their communities shattered in the pursuit of power and personal ambition. I doubt he actively took pleasure is this, but I doubt also he ever saw it as any more than collateral damage to his goals. That to me is evil.

More importantly, we all agree he's a massive tool?