Anzac Day today

Stevie2112 · Post by **Stevie2112** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:18 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG48Ftsr3OI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Anzac Day today remembering all those who lost their lives .

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:39 pm

There is a little poetic licence at the start; the Australians lost less than 9,000 killed not the 50,000 quoted. A little appreciated fact is that the French had more soldiers killed than the Australians, yet most Australians don't realise the French were even there. As a bit-part player the Aussies certainly seem to have taken ownership of the campaign. Also, in a mere 7 weeks on the Somme they lost approx 6,800 men compared to 8,700 in 8 months in Gallipoli yet they don't seem to make such a song and dance about that one.

john'sroseyspecs · Post by **john'sroseyspecs** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:21 pm

And as a percentage of population? Idiot

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:42 am

Even as a percentage of population, both the Brits and the French suffered higher losses.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ebby · Post by **ebby** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:26 am

The difference between Gallipoli and the battles on the Western Front where Australian & New Zealand troops fought is that Gallipoli was the first battle that they had fought together. It was also the first battle that Australian troops had been in as an "independent' nation following Federation in 1901.In the Boer War, as part of the British Empire, the Australian colonies offered troops. Australians served in contingents raised by the six colonies

ClaretDiver · Post by **ClaretDiver** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:52 am

BennyD wrote:There is a little poetic licence at the start; the Australians lost less than 9,000 killed not the 50,000 quoted. A little appreciated fact is that the French had more soldiers killed than the Australians, yet most Australians don't realise the French were even there. As a bit-part player the Aussies certainly seem to have taken ownership of the campaign. Also, in a mere 7 weeks on the Somme they lost approx 6,800 men compared to 8,700 in 8 months in Gallipoli yet they don't seem to make such a song and dance about that one.

What an unbelievable insensitive post....words fail me....

Winstonswhite · Post by **Winstonswhite** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:39 am

Quite possibly the height of keyboard warriorism"

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:40 am

Should never be forgotten and quite right that they commentate it. Anyone trying to belittle this in any way needs to have a rethink.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:46 am

Contrast the post by BennyD on this thread with his post on the lawyers thread.

WTF mate?

Got something against the Australian and New Zealand war dead?

Bin Ont Turf · Post by **Bin Ont Turf** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:51 am

It's probably worth knowing what ANZAC stands for and then understanding why on ANZAC 'Day' that Australians are remembered.

Acting Claret · Post by **Acting Claret** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:13 am

I'm getting soooo tired of some of the posters on here.
Thinking about jacking it in.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:11 am

Wow, the famous UTC knee jerking kicks in. Firstly, nowhere in my original post did I disparage or disrespect the ANZAC war dead. In fact, I never even mentioned the New Zealanders. Secondly, there was NOTHING in my original post that wasn't a matter of fact. Check them. Thirdly, my paternal Grandfather fought there with the Burnley battery and I've visited the peninsular 4 times, including twice in the last 2 years, to pay my respects to the war dead of both sides but, to be fair, mainly the allies. I think it's great the Aussies remember the war but I do have issues with the way they do it. I was there on 25th April 2015 for the centenary commemorations and myself and several other British 'pilgrims', including the son and Grandson of one of the Munsters who landed on V beach on 25th April 1015, were prevented from getting on the peninsular for most of the day. This was because the Australians had decreed it so, even though Anzac cove is several miles from the British landing beaches at Cape Helles. Not only that, the approach to Shell Green cemetery was turned into a rubbish dump by the Australians to the point I was moved to take photos and send them to the CWGC with a strong complaint. Btw, when I was there I spoke to several Aussies in bars various and none of them were aware that the French had taken part in larger numbers. I put this down to the fact they didn't have their own landing beaches (they came ashore at V beach after it had been secured) and they held the East of the line which was the furthest point from the Aussies. Also, IIRC, the Australian war correspondent Charles Bean said that the Australian dead laid thicker on the Pozieres ridge than any other battlefield in the war. Just saying.

Corky · Post by **Corky** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:46 am

Well said BennyD. I believe a lot of politics around the Gallipoli campaign have muddied the waters over the years to the extent that, as you rightly point out, people think this was just a joint New Zealand/Australian action.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:56 am

Well said?

Just a tiny bit of reading on the subject tells you nothing of the sort. Clearly mentions all the allied combatants.

How did you know the rubbish was Australian btw? Was it all covered in slouch hats, or tins of Kangaroo meat?

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:00 am

It was strewn with bits of rope, which they'd used to tie their kangaroos down

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:06 am

Please bear in mind that my reply above was a hell of a lot more polite than my original one.

The explanation given does not justify your first post. I'm not sure any explanation would do.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:14 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Well said?

Just a tiny bit of reading on the subject tells you nothing of the sort. Clearly mentions all the allied combatants.

How did you know the rubbish was Australian btw? Was it all covered in slouch hats, or tins of Kangaroo meat?

It just goes to show that even you, with no knowledge and minimal effort, can find out who was there but the Australians don't seem to appreciate the same facts. What does that tell you? Also, it was most certainly Australian because it was within the 'exclusion' area at the time it opened. It wasn't there the day before because I'd been up there then as well.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:15 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Please bear in mind that my reply above was a hell of a lot more polite than my original one.

The explanation given does not justify your first post. I'm not sure any explanation would do.

Exactly what offends you in my first post? The facts or your sensitivity?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:17 am

What facts?

You've decided to tell us all that the Australians make far too much of ANZAC day at Gallipoli. How dare they!

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:19 am

It just goes to show that even you, with no knowledge and minimal effort

You are assuming a lot on this thread. A hell of a lot, so I won't take that personally!

ClaretDiver · Post by **ClaretDiver** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:19 am

Agreed Lancaster, the original post was incredibly disrespectful and insensitive.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:18 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:What facts?

You've decided to tell us all that the Australians make far too much of ANZAC day at Gallipoli. How dare they!

Swing, and another miss. That's not what I said at all; it's the exclusion of all other nations that irks me, not the fact they commemorate the part they played. I also said there are other battles during which they suffered more casualties which they don't commemorate to anywhere near the same extent. Using facts and your personal experience, disprove my statements.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:19 pm

ClaretDiver wrote:Agreed Lancaster, the original post was incredibly disrespectful and insensitive.

Again, what was offensive about my original post? Do you have a point to make or are you just following the herd?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:34 pm

Its ANZAC Day Benny

Its a bit different from (for example) D-Day celebrations.

Its a national holiday in both Aus and NZ, and is one of the most important dates in both countries history because of what it signified as an important part in both countries becoming independent countries.

If you don't understand that bit, then perhaps I'm being a bit harsh.

Worth mentioning as well that a search for non australian tourists being refused entry on anzac day at gallipoli does draw a blank as well, and thats is the kind of thing that would certainly be reported.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:48 pm

Obviously not. The Australians held a ballot for the 10,000 spaces available at Anzac cove (it's quite a small area) and the only people allowed in the ballot were Australians and New Zealanders. They then asked the Turkish authorities to blockade the peninsular to non-ticket holders. The only way to get on the peninsular was on the Cannakale- Eceabat ferry and to get on that you had to show your ballot ticket. When on the peninsular the only transport available were the official coaches which you could only board with, you've guessed it, a ballot ticket. This effectively blocked all other nations from attending their countries battle grounds. Also, I fully appreciate what ANZAC day means to the Antipodeans but Anzac cove, Lone Pine, Chunuk Bair etc are several miles away from Helles and Suvla and there is no reason preclude visitors from other Nations to these areas.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:07 pm

I'm glad that we are getting some context to your disappointment, and I'm really pleased that we appear to be agreeing on the importance of this day to the Aussies and New Zealanders.

And very envious that you are went to these places, they are fascinating and well worth a visit (I've done Normandy and Changi/Singapore) and more of us should take the time to visit these iconic locations.

I think (though I can't speak for anybody else on this thread) it was your use of the term "they don't make a song and dance about that" that kicked it off.

Anyway, hope you keep visiting and enjoying these places.

ThinLizzy · Post by **ThinLizzy** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:11 pm

My only issue wih this is that it seems to go under the radar a bit here. Not just the fact our allies were alongside us and suffered losses, but the fact we had souls there who barely get recognised. Almost like the forgotten fallen.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:37 pm

That's appreciated Lancaster. However, whilst not wishing to offend anyone (else) with 'inappropriate verbiage', but having witnessed the Australians' commemorations, I have to say, regretfully, that song and dance sums it up pretty well. I could use the word circus but won't. Grandstands on the beach, sound systems, lighting gantries, nearly 200 official coaches, stewards in hi-viz jackets, banks of porta loos etc, etc stand in stark contrast to the British beaches on the same day. All you get there is the wind off the sea. Even the Lone Pine cemetery has a scaffold grandstand on 3 sides which somewhat destroys the brooding atmosphere and sanctity of the place. I was there for about a week with the 25th in the middle and in the 5 times I went to Suvla bay, I only met 2 Australians in the whole area yet it is only a half mile from Anzac cove. At Helles, the Australians tend to frequent Redoubt cemetery as there are numerous Australian graves there as a result of their support in the 2nd and 3rd battles of Krithia, or Alticepe as it now is. I've never seen them on any of the British beaches or Gully Ravine which were Australian free.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:45 pm

ThinLizzy wrote:My only issue wih this is that it seems to go under the radar a bit here. Not just the fact our allies were alongside us and suffered losses, but the fact we had souls there who barely get recognised. Almost like the forgotten fallen.

That's so very true. One of the reasons I go to these far off places is to do my, insignificant, bit to remember these guys. Each one has a story of how they got to that particular piece that is 'forever England' but as time passes the stories get hazier and eventually disappear. An example of 'our' ambivalence to these matters is the fact that the British centenary commemorations were held on the evening of the 24th April which means nothing as we hadn't even landed then. Wills and Kate rocked up, but the whole thing was over in less than an hour and no 'plebs' like me could get a ticket. 'Grown ups' only. Still, I showed willing by driving nearly 2000 miles each way.

ThinLizzy · Post by **ThinLizzy** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:02 pm

BennyD wrote:That's so very true. One of the reasons I go to these far off places is to do my, insignificant, bit to remember these guys. Each one has a story of how they got to that particular piece that is 'forever England' but as time passes the stories get hazier and eventually disappear. An example of 'our' ambivalence to these matters is the fact that the British centenary commemorations were held on the evening of the 24th April which means nothing as we hadn't even landed then. Wills and Kate rocked up, but the whole thing was over in less than an hour and no 'plebs' like me could get a ticket. 'Grown ups' only. Still, I showed willing by driving nearly 2000 miles each way.

Can't help but doff my cap to that Benny.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:21 pm

Just google some of the Commonwealth grave sites.

There are some in places you'd never think we fought

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:31 pm

BennyD wrote:That's so very true. One of the reasons I go to these far off places is to do my, insignificant, bit to remember these guys. Each one has a story of how they got to that particular piece that is 'forever England' but as time passes the stories get hazier and eventually disappear. An example of 'our' ambivalence to these matters is the fact that the British centenary commemorations were held on the evening of the 24th April which means nothing as we hadn't even landed then. Wills and Kate rocked up, but the whole thing was over in less than an hour and no 'plebs' like me could get a ticket. 'Grown ups' only. Still, I showed willing by driving nearly 2000 miles each way.

Interesting thread, and I don't want to hijack it into something political but this post reminded me of something my grandad used to say whenever the remembrance day was on telly. "Nice to see the great and the good up at the front today, and not 300 miles away like they were at the time".

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:37 pm

Mine used to say something similar!

These are a couple of pictures to highlight what I was carping on about. This is Lone Pine, a very savage action where the ground was covered in Australian dead. Personally, I do not agree with the grandstands and nothing similar exists outside the Australian area.

This is the approach to Shell Green. The 'space blankets' were given to the Australian pilgrims,who dumped them there.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:58 pm

Thats not good.

Agree with you about the Grandstands as well, looks a bit tacky to put it mildly.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:11 pm

If only wars could be solved by turning confrontation into agreement, by explanation and discussion. If we could, things would better for all of us. Apart from Blackburn; they'll always be wankers.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:14 pm

I suppose in the defence of whoever organised this, it would be very hard for 10,000 people of all ages to see anything without them, but still.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:32 pm

Unfortunately, like the Muslim Hadjj, it looks like it has become a commercial enterprise under the guise of a rite of passage. There is no real reason for them to go there apart from interest, either personal or academic, but every year thousands turn up because, it appears, it is expected of them. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm so very glad they do remember, as we should, but the emphasis seems to have shifted. Personally, I much prefer to go outside of the 'tourist season' when you can go where you want over the whole campaign area and see no one all day. That way you get to sense the feeling of history and when it is still, overcast, hot and muggy, you can almost imagine what it was like because your imagination runs wild. It's difficult to explain but it's another reason why I keep going back. Unfortunately, crowds and grandstands destroy that feeling and it becomes just another holiday spot.

ClaretDiver · Post by **ClaretDiver** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:20 pm

Benny, I hold my hand up and apologise. You obviously did not mean the initial comment in the manner I read it.

One of the most poignant War Cemetaries I have visited was the one in Kanchanaburi, Thailand where the POW's are buried that were forced by the Japanese to build the Bumese-Siam Railway. The museum is also worth a visit if you are ever over that way, so is a trip on the 'Death Railway'.

You wonder how they ever built it in the first place!!

Once again, my apologies for jumping in 2-footed!

Oh, and I agree about Blackburn fans

UTC,

CD

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:29 pm

Cheers CD, much appreciated and I'll take a hit for the confusion my 'description' caused. I'd like to get to Kohima and have a look round there. The battle was fought during the Burma campaign and it centred on a tennis court; us on one side and the Japanese on the other. The marked court is still laid out amongst the graves in the cemetery which were laid out immediately after the battle. My mum and dad went to the Burma railway several years ago and, hopefully, I'll get to see that as well if/when I ever get over there again.

ClaretDiver · Post by **ClaretDiver** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:48 pm

Another place worth visiting is Sandakan on Malaysia Borneo.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:15 pm

Thanks for that, I'll do a bit of research. I've never really 'got into' the Far East campaign so I'll have to read up on it. I've 'done' Singapore but the rest isn't as accessible as Northern France!

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:29 pm

Yeah, Diving at Truk is on my "bucket list".

Not sure I'll ever get around to that one though!

Recommended books on that btw

"Shattered Sword" - about Midway

"Rising Sun, Fallen Skies" - about the Java Sea Campaign of 1942

Never found a good one about Malaya to be honest!

ClaretDiver · Post by **ClaretDiver** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:30 pm

Lancaster, Truk is A-May-Zing.......OMG, some of the best diving I have ever done!

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:12 am

Btw Lancaster, I hold my hand up and apologise if you feel I insulted you regarding your knowledge of the relevant course of history. I have to say I usually engage in 'discussions' with less (relevantly) educated people than yourself so I'm sorry if I slighted your knowledge of wartime events. I don't know how much you know of the Gallipoli campaign but I have a feeling it's more than I gave you credit for. So, respect. Claretdiver also.

ClaretDiver · Post by **ClaretDiver** » Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:19 am

No worries Benny, I was actually married to an Aussie girl for 5 years who's grandfather fought there. Lived in Perth so I have been to a number of dawn services that were incredibly poignant and sombre. The one in King's Park, Perth is a very moving service.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:48 am

LIke CD say, no worries. It is only the internet!

ebby · Post by **ebby** » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:18 am

Re Anzac Cove this year, the media reports here in Oz said only around 700 people turned up. They were outnumbered 3 to 1 by Turkish security forces.

10K were there a couple of years ago because it was the 100th anniversary of the landings. All the crowds & VIP's etc have now moved over to France for the various commemorations etc.

The Aus government have been throwing bucketloads of money for any 100th commemoration, either on foreign soil or in Oz.

A friend of mine wrote a book on all the soldiers who were from Fremantle and fought in WW1, which was a big success with lots of rellies purchasing it.