It's not just about Brexit

[GodIsADeeJay81]

If we can't call them the Far left, what about the gobshite left instead?

[Rowls]

This is the thread that keeps on giving.

Thanks to everybody - keep on contributing.

[Jakubclaret]

I disagree with you on so many of your points. Once the referendum was over the government didn't speak with the people or with other parties about what Brexit would look like. The government kept all of it to themselves, and so therefore they have to take ownership of the muddle and mess the last four years have been. I see you attempting to blame "remainers" and Bercow, but the fact remains that the government was solely in control of the UK's negotiations, the content of the various withdrawal bills (which many including Johnson voted against), and the even worse withdrawal agreement that Johnson eventually got through parliament.

I didn't say we were an insignificant trade partner, but that alone we are much weaker than we were when in the EU when it comes to striking trade deals. A population of 500 Million is a more attractive market than one of 60 Million. That's just a fact.

And what is this rubbish about the "rise of the far left"? The far left has remained fairly insignificant in this country for decades. If you're going to use political terms, at least try to be accurate.

All of this was discussed prior & there was no need after the decision had been made, similar to WW2 & winston Churchill’s declaration that we would be joining the war nobody then at that time was 100% sure of the future, you make the decision or to be precise we all made the decision & then try to progress from that point onwards with a degree of certainty but impeded by the changing political landscape, nobody banked back then on a pandemic hitting us 4+ years on & derailing certain objectives off course, from the 3rd September 1939 to 8th may 1945 lots of things back then also couldn’t be accurately predicted had there have been it could have ended sooner. You just never know & to a degree you play the hand you are dealt.

[Hipper]

Chamberlain declared war on Germany. Churchill came in as head of a coalition after Chamberlain resigned because of the Norway debacle in May 1940.

[Jakubclaret]

Chamberlain declared war on Germany. Churchill came in as head of a coalition after Chamberlain resigned because of the Norway debacle in May 1940.

Quite correct, my memory is somewhat distorted by the passage of time, the point still stands whether it be the queen mother or Joan Collins who declared war upon Germany at that particular time it seemed the right & only thing to do & similar to brexit whatever mistakes were made after the decision there was no pulling out or retraction, full steam ahead, I think some people on here & in life have a crystal ball hidden away somewhere & can magically call upon it before important decisions are announced.

[AndrewJB]

Quite correct, my memory is somewhat distorted by the passage of time, the point still stands whether it be the queen mother or Joan Collins who declared war upon Germany at that particular time it seemed the right & only thing to do & similar to brexit whatever mistakes were made after the decision there was no pulling out or retraction, full steam ahead, I think some people on here & in life have a crystal ball hidden away somewhere & can magically call upon it before important decisions are announced.

Are we really drawing a lazy and misleading comparison between WW2 (a moment of national existential crisis), and Brexit (a National choice that barely scraped over the line)?

If Brexit turns out to be an utter mess for the country, then I fully expect the government to set a different course. I don’t hold to the idea that: “most of our right hand is missing because we put it in the blender, but it’s the choice we made so now I’m putting my left hand in...”

[dsr]

Are we really drawing a lazy and misleading comparison between WW2 (a moment of national existential crisis), and Brexit (a National choice that barely scraped over the line)?

If Brexit turns out to be an utter mess for the country, then I fully expect the government to set a different course. I don’t hold to the idea that: “most of our right hand is missing because we put it in the blender, but it’s the choice we made so now I’m putting my left hand in...”

Well, we'll have to see, won't we. Brexit hasn't turned out to be a complete mess yet; we'll see if it is, after it's happened.

But all that's happened so far is that people like you have spent 4 years banging your head against the wall and screaming "not fair". And if as a result you have got a headache and a sore throat, that's not the fault of the vote.

[AndrewJB]

Well, we'll have to see, won't we. Brexit hasn't turned out to be a complete mess yet; we'll see if it is, after it's happened.

But all that's happened so far is that people like you have spent 4 years banging your head against the wall and screaming "not fair". And if as a result you have got a headache and a sore throat, that's not the fault of the vote.

“Brexit hasn’t turned out to be a complete mess yet...” - that’s the best you can say for now, because of all the promises and assurances made by the Leave campaign none of them have come to pass. The money we save by not paying into the EU? That and more goes on red tape. Easiest trade deal in history? It’s been four years and there still isn’t one. We hold all the cards? We don’t. Turkey joining the EU, and 75 Million Turks moving here? Nope. UK free of unelected bureaucrats? Meet Dominic Cummings!

You can try to characterise this as a childish tantrum if you want, but really I’m just watching events unfold like everyone else, and commenting on the huge disconnect between what was promised and what is now being delivered. You’re blocking out reality and hoping for the best.

[AndrewJB]

Why is Arron Banks demanding to see whether he’s mentioned in the Russia Report on their meddling in our democracy? Could it be because of stories like this?

https://www.ft.com/content/4610a4be-dde ... d397e6661c

[Devils_Advocate]

Keep on believing.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIpT58Oxd-A&app=desktop

[AndrewJB]

Keep on believing.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIpT58Oxd-A&app=desktop

That video is hilarious. The next one on the feed was this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uYTJGBBjkGo&pbjreload=101

It would be enlightening and funny to see the same people debate this again now.

[clarethomer]

You can try to characterise this as a childish tantrum if you want, but really I’m just watching events unfold like everyone else, and commenting on the huge disconnect between what was promised and what is now being delivered. You’re blocking out reality and hoping for the best.

Is this trying hard enough?

Unknown.jpg (8.27 KiB) Viewed 2651 times

[dsr]

You can try to characterise this as a childish tantrum if you want, but really I’m just watching events unfold like everyone else, and commenting on the huge disconnect between what was promised and what is now being delivered. You’re blocking out reality and hoping for the best.

But you have spent the last four years hoping for the worst, and it hasn't happened. Is hoping for the best such a bad thing?

[clarethomer]

You won’t change his view.

He has one mode - broken record mode.

Don’t dare point out that remain told porkies that never happened.

Don’t dare point out that the bbc were biased to the left in the last election

Don’t point out that it doesn’t make it a fact when you put the word fact at the end of a sentence.

Whatever you do, don’t point out that it’s not just the right has extreme individuals who lie and cause upset in the world.

None of what he says is really about Brexit in reality, it’s about dealing with the upset that his socialist left leaning views have been rejected and it’s about telling everyone else how they are wrong, wrong, wrong.

Maybe he will find the positives in life when there is acceptance that he cannot change the past and his efforts to tell others how to feel and view the world is what probably causes him so much internal worry and stress that is really unnecessary.

We get it, you think you were wronged.

Please feel free to think your reality as fact

But don’t get mad when others do the same... that’s being a hypocrite

[RingoMcCartney]

You won’t change his view.

He has one mode - broken record mode.

Don’t dare point out that remain told porkies that never happened.

Don’t dare point out that the bbc were biased to the left in the last election

Don’t point out that it doesn’t make it a fact when you put the word fact at the end of a sentence.

Whatever you do, don’t point out that it’s not just the right has extreme individuals who lie and cause upset in the world.

None of what he says is really about Brexit in reality, it’s about dealing with the upset that his socialist left leaning views have been rejected and it’s about telling everyone else how they are wrong, wrong, wrong.

Maybe he will find the positives in life when there is acceptance that he cannot change the past and his efforts to tell others how to feel and view the world is what probably causes him so much internal worry and stress that is really unnecessary.

We get it, you think you were wronged.

Please feel free to think your reality as fact

But don’t get mad when others do the same... that’s being a hypocrite

Congratulations!

You won UTC messageboard Post of the Week.

However , I predict

Right wing media blah blah blah

In 5....4....3....2...

[AndrewJB]

But you have spent the last four years hoping for the worst, and it hasn't happened. Is hoping for the best such a bad thing?

I haven’t spent the last four years hoping for the worst. Why do you invent things?

[aggi]

I'd say there's been more "I told you so" than "It's not fair".

All those things like the border in the Irish Sea and the vast increase in customs time and costs that were obviously on their way but plenty tried to deny.

As an aside, with all this talk about how the county is going to repay the vastly increased borrowing how come there's been no mention of the Brexit Dividend. It's almost like it never existed.

[claretandy]

Why is Arron Banks demanding to see whether he’s mentioned in the Russia Report on their meddling in our democracy? Could it be because of stories like this?

https://www.ft.com/content/4610a4be-dde ... d397e6661c

Arron Banks isn't mentioned in the Russia report.

[aggi]

Arron Banks isn't mentioned in the Russia report.

You should probably let his lawyers know, they've been asking about it:

Banks’s lawyer Kingsley Napley says there are ongoing defamation case over the previous publication of many of the accusations, in which he was accused of being a Russian agent.

The letter said: “Mr Banks has not received any invitation to give evidence and/or to respond to any allegations which may be advanced against him in the Russia report.

“Please provide us with immediate notification of any statements made within the Russia Report which refer to Mr Banks.

“Given the subject matter of the Russia Report and the matters which are currently live in litigation in the courts, it would obviously be necessary, fair and just for him to have advance notice if any statements were to be made about him and that he was given a proper opportunity to deal with them prior to publication.

“Not least when it is understood journalists have been given an opportunity to cooperate.”

[AndrewJB]

You won’t change his view.

He has one mode - broken record mode.

Don’t dare point out that remain told porkies that never happened.

Don’t dare point out that the bbc were biased to the left in the last election

Don’t point out that it doesn’t make it a fact when you put the word fact at the end of a sentence.

Whatever you do, don’t point out that it’s not just the right has extreme individuals who lie and cause upset in the world.

None of what he says is really about Brexit in reality, it’s about dealing with the upset that his socialist left leaning views have been rejected and it’s about telling everyone else how they are wrong, wrong, wrong.

Maybe he will find the positives in life when there is acceptance that he cannot change the past and his efforts to tell others how to feel and view the world is what probably causes him so much internal worry and stress that is really unnecessary.

We get it, you think you were wronged.

Please feel free to think your reality as fact

But don’t get mad when others do the same... that’s being a hypocrite

Thank you Sigmund Freud.

My arguments challenge your received wisdom, but rather than educate me on the errors I evidently hold, you’ve chosen to attack my personality or character. I’m entirely open to be persuaded, just as I’ve always deplored Cameron and Osborne’s project fear rubbish - to correct another of your inaccuracies.

[dsr]

I haven’t spent the last four years hoping for the worst. Why do you invent things?

Well, there's a question. Why would someone make a comment like "you're blocking out reality" or "you're hoping for the worst". I presume the answer is that in the first case, the person making the statement is anti-Brexit and therefore correct in all matters, especially in that his version of reality is the only correct one. While the second comment is made by someone who is pro-Brexit and can therefore be ignored.

[clarethomer]

Thank you Sigmund Freud.

My arguments challenge your received wisdom, but rather than educate me on the errors I evidently hold, you’ve chosen to attack my personality or character. I’m entirely open to be persuaded, just as I’ve always deplored Cameron and Osborne’s project fear rubbish - to correct another of your inaccuracies.

The irony of this post is you just continue to prove my point.

People who have a different view to you challenge your perceived wisdom. Rather than accept their view, you try and argue about it and push your left wing views and agenda on to others claiming injustice and lies and disagreement of their view- which you place as being therefore factually wrong.

You carefully navigate past the issues that existed within the political areas you subscribe to and then expect this to be different from others.

My point isn’t to attack you but to get you to realise that what you observe in the world around you, the same things are inherently within you . Yet you criticise others for in pushing their agenda on to others- yet you expect a different behaviour from me and others?

I look forward to a response which has...

- answer this then type question
- contains a link to some article that no body can do anything about and is based on being about this being bad for the future which no one can argue for certain as it hasn’t happened yet.

[aggi]

There's obviously been a lot of talk about "selling off the NHS", some of it well-founded, some of it a bit knee jerk.

Interestingly this fairly anodyne amendment was put forward yesterday to try and protect the NHS and was voted down by Conservative MPs. People will obviously make of that what they will:

[aggi]

Also, in terms of taking back control news, there was an amendment defeated yesterday that would have given Parliament a "yes/no vote" on the negotiating objectives and the final draft agreement of trade deals.

Given that some of these trade deals will be binding for quite a long time we'll just have to hope that the PM at the time they are made is competent.

[AndrewJB]

The irony of this post is you just continue to prove my point.

People who have a different view to you challenge your perceived wisdom. Rather than accept their view, you try and argue about it and push your left wing views and agenda on to others claiming injustice and lies and disagreement of their view- which you place as being therefore factually wrong.

You carefully navigate past the issues that existed within the political areas you subscribe to and then expect this to be different from others.

My point isn’t to attack you but to get you to realise that what you observe in the world around you, the same things are inherently within you . Yet you criticise others for in pushing their agenda on to others- yet you expect a different behaviour from me and others?

I look forward to a response which has...

- answer this then type question
- contains a link to some article that no body can do anything about and is based on being about this being bad for the future which no one can argue for certain as it hasn’t happened yet.

Pigeonholing me as “left wing” and “pushing an agenda” is lazy and inaccurate. It’s cancel culture. If I’m wrong about something, show me and I’ll hold my hands up and admit it. In fact even better, forget I’m left wing and just take each post on its own merits.

[martin_p]

The irony of this post is you just continue to prove my point.

People who have a different view to you challenge your perceived wisdom. Rather than accept their view, you try and argue about it and push your left wing views and agenda on to others claiming injustice and lies and disagreement of their view- which you place as being therefore factually wrong.

Whatever you think about Andrew’s views (and I agree on some disagree on others) he is at least prepared to put up arguments to support those views. You seem to be saying ‘I have a particular viewpoint on something, therefore you have to accept it’. If you have a viewpoint then defend it with a reasoned argument. If you disagree with someone else’s viewpoint then explain why. Don’t just expect everyone to accept what you say, after all isn’t that discussion and debate is supposed to be about?

[Spijed]

So the government has basically said the NHS can be sold off to the highest bidder.

Welcome to Brexit!

[KateR]

Pigeonholing me as “left wing” and “pushing an agenda” is lazy and inaccurate. It’s cancel culture. If I’m wrong about something, show me and I’ll hold my hands up and admit it. In fact even better, forget I’m left wing and just take each post on its own merits.

you don't have enough hands to put up for the number of times you've been wrong for the last 4 years and the agendas of change you have put forward plus the support and accolades you gave JC and labour.

The fact that you never hold your hand up or say one good thing about what the Tory party has done, is why people don't believe you to begin with, ohh except Marty and a couple of other zealots

[clarethomer]

So just to try and draw out an example of why I believe that AndrewJB doesn't aim to promote debate and discussion. Why i believe that he is more interested in spreading ill informed information for the purpose of his own agenda.

Andrew - You never hear about what this red tape we are losing.

Me - Trade deals - we can now make our own and are not bound by the EU.

Andrew - Ah yes but let me tell you about Japan and the 6 weeks they have given us. Not as good a deal as we would have got in the EU. Thats the problem "when you are a small market going it alone in a big world"

Me - I believe the Japan trade deal is based on the EU deal so it shouldn't be any worse. So using your own words of us being a small market doesn't seem to have caused us an issue.

Andrew - I didn't say we we were an insignificant trading partner (which is reference to another post where i used this term in response to another person - as i had taken the point of Andrew stating our small market reference as his inference that we would be considered insignificant trading partner - in comparison tot he EU).

Me - no point even trying to continue discussion as its clear he doesn't care for the facts of a situation and would rather go back on trying to be clever and steering the conversation elsewhere.


And this is just one of many examples you will find across posts of how he is not open to debate. There is only one person on here stifling debate.

I don't want to cancel anything. Again this is an activity which has recently come into the vocabulary of the media which largely seems to be driven by actions of the left and those that seem to think being woke makes you superior.

[clarethomer]

Pigeonholing me as “left wing” and “pushing an agenda” is lazy and inaccurate. It’s cancel culture. If I’m wrong about something, show me and I’ll hold my hands up and admit it. In fact even better, forget I’m left wing and just take each post on its own merits.

See above post.

I await your apology for and your arms and hands fully held up so KateR can give you a massive tickle under them!

[martin_p]

So just to try and draw out an example of why I believe that AndrewJB doesn't aim to promote debate and discussion. Why i believe that he is more interested in spreading ill informed information for the purpose of his own agenda.

Andrew - You never hear about what this red tape we are losing.

Me - Trade deals - we can now make our own and are not bound by the EU.

Andrew - Ah yes but let me tell you about Japan and the 6 weeks they have given us. Not as good a deal as we would have got in the EU. Thats the problem "when you are a small market going it alone in a big world"

Me - I believe the Japan trade deal is based on the EU deal so it shouldn't be any worse. So using your own words of us being a small market doesn't seem to have caused us an issue.

Andrew - I didn't say we we were an insignificant trading partner (which is reference to another post where i used this term in response to another person - as i had taken the point of Andrew stating our small market reference as his inference that we would be considered insignificant trading partner - in comparison tot he EU).

Me - no point even trying to continue discussion as its clear he doesn't care for the facts of a situation and would rather go back on trying to be clever and steering the conversation elsewhere.


And this is just one of many examples you will find across posts of how he is not open to debate. There is only one person on here stifling debate.

I don't want to cancel anything. Again this is an activity which has recently come into the vocabulary of the media which largely seems to be driven by actions of the left and those that seem to think being woke makes you superior.

So in summary he was discussing it with you, said something you didn’t agree with so you closed the conversation down. But he’s the one stifling debate?

[clarethomer]

So in summary he was discussing it with you, said something you didn’t agree with so you closed the conversation down. But he’s the one stifling debate?

Yep that's it - you have got me.

He is the one who claims that we are now seeing the result of being outside the EU with being pushed around by Japan.

I am the one that points out that I think that he has this wrong and why. I also reference the fact that it doesn't appear to have been an issue with us being out of the EU.

Never hear anything back - he sees that I have referenced a term used by changing the words slightly and BAM - Straight on me to say that he never said that.

Wait - what no rebuttal to the fact that he still felt the trade deal was a worst deal because we were not in the EU.

No evidence of why our negotiating power has actually been compromised - other than "it's obvious having a larger marketplace puts us in a better position" type statement.

Yep - it's me that is the person on here talking rubbish and not admitting when Im wrong... You may have to look closely but there could be an example of me doing this in this thread where I got lazy with my language.. I acknowledged it, clarified and conversation was able to continue. How unusual that is eh?

[martin_p]

Yep that's it - you have got me.

He is the one who claims that we are now seeing the result of being outside the EU with being pushed around by Japan.

I am the one that points out that I think that he has this wrong and why. I also reference the fact that it doesn't appear to have been an issue with us being out of the EU.

Never hear anything back - he sees that I have referenced a term used by changing the words slightly and BAM - Straight on me to say that he never said that.

Wait - what no rebuttal to the fact that he still felt the trade deal was a worst deal because we were not in the EU.

No evidence of why our negotiating power has actually been compromised - other than "it's obvious having a larger marketplace puts us in a better position" type statement.

Yep - it's me that is the person on here talking rubbish and not admitting when Im wrong... You may have to look closely but there could be an example of me doing this in this thread where I got lazy with my language.. I acknowledged it, clarified and conversation was able to continue. How unusual that is eh?

Every newspaper out there has mentioned, or quoted others saying, that the six week timescale is likely to lead to lots of concessions and a worse deal. Only the government are still claiming they can get one as good or better than the one with the EU.

[clarethomer]

Here is what I have read

https://www.ft.com/content/a70e644e-f58 ... 3972004f4f

It talks about there is a general risk with trying to get deals in place before the end of the year puts us at risk. Now please pay close attention to this is talking about a general risk in getting deals in place and does not specifically state that the deal we are aiming to is a worse deal.

In fact, I will draw your attention to the following paragraphs;

Last year’s “mini-deal” between Japan and the US took six months to negotiate, although it was not finalised until September and still passed the Diet by December. That suggests there may be some flexibility in Mr Matsuura’s July deadline.

Both sides have agreed to base a deal on the existing EU-Japan agreement — which took effect last year — but the UK has set out further goals, including the “reduction or elimination” of Japanese tariffs on goods and agriculture and “ambitious commitments on market access” for UK services.

However, Mr Matsuura suggested there would be little time for talks on contentious areas such as tariffs and quotas. “The shortage of time means that both sides will have to limit their ambitions,” he said.

So again, i read this is that we went in for a more ambitious trade deal but its likely we won't get the additional bits we were looking for. It doesn't say that they have put us over a barrel to give us a worse deal than that the EU got?

I read this as we are likely to get the same deal as the EU based without much effort and a reduced timeline.

[nil_desperandum]

I read this as we are likely to get the same deal as the EU based without much effort and a reduced timeline.

So the same as if we were still in the EU then?
(Same standards, T&Cs and "red tape")

[clarethomer]

The red tape in our ability to negotiate as a standalone nation has been removed. Which is the red tape I referred to.

I don't know the answers to the other points because nothing has been agreed and signed.

Happy to look at once there is more information available to see the impact of whatever deal is agreed however, if it ends up the same and we can then move on from there next year. It's a far better position that has been presented on here with this deal by others.

[martin_p]

Here is what I have read

https://www.ft.com/content/a70e644e-f58 ... 3972004f4f

It talks about there is a general risk with trying to get deals in place before the end of the year puts us at risk. Now please pay close attention to this is talking about a general risk in getting deals in place and does not specifically state that the deal we are aiming to is a worse deal.

In fact, I will draw your attention to the following paragraphs;

Last year’s “mini-deal” between Japan and the US took six months to negotiate, although it was not finalised until September and still passed the Diet by December. That suggests there may be some flexibility in Mr Matsuura’s July deadline.

Both sides have agreed to base a deal on the existing EU-Japan agreement — which took effect last year — but the UK has set out further goals, including the “reduction or elimination” of Japanese tariffs on goods and agriculture and “ambitious commitments on market access” for UK services.

However, Mr Matsuura suggested there would be little time for talks on contentious areas such as tariffs and quotas. “The shortage of time means that both sides will have to limit their ambitions,” he said.

So again, i read this is that we went in for a more ambitious trade deal but its likely we won't get the additional bits we were looking for. It doesn't say that they have put us over a barrel to give us a worse deal than that the EU got?

I read this as we are likely to get the same deal as the EU based without much effort and a reduced timeline.

I don’t subscribe to the FT so if I’m to take a view on the article you’ve quoted you’ll have to post it in full.

[clarethomer]

The link worked for me without having to subscribe - but here you go...

Japan rushes UK to agree first post-Brexit trade deal

Britain under pressure to meet Tokyo’s 6-week timetable, meaning key areas such as agriculture may suffer

Japan has given the UK just six weeks to strike a post-Brexit deal, putting Boris Johnson’s government under pressure to agree one of the fastest trade negotiations in history — and Britain’s first in more than 40 years.

Time is so short that both sides will need to “limit their ambitions”, warned Hiroshi Matsuura, Tokyo’s chief negotiator, in comments that dash UK hopes of winning deep trade liberalisation from Japan.

While meeting the timetable would hand Mr Johnson an early trade victory, it also highlights the risk of the UK being bounced into bad deals before the Brexit transition expires at the end of the year.

Striking a trade agreement with Japan is one of the main priorities for Liz Truss, the UK’s trade secretary, who hailed the start of talks as a “historic moment” for both countries. When the talks began two weeks ago, she said the UK and Japan had signed up to an “ambitious timeline” to complete the negotiations.

Most comprehensive free trade deals normally take years to agree, but Mr Matsuura said there was almost no time left if Japan was going to ratify a deal this year.

We are doing this deal differently to the usual style. Instead of rounds of talks, we are negotiating every single day

Hiroshi Matsuura, Japan’s chief negotiator
“To avoid a gap in January, we must pass this in the autumn session of the Diet [the Japanese parliament],” he told the Financial Times. “That means we must complete negotiations by the end of July.”

Last year’s “mini-deal” between Japan and the US took six months to negotiate, although it was not finalised until September and still passed the Diet by December. That suggests there may be some flexibility in Mr Matsuura’s July deadline.

Both sides have agreed to base a deal on the existing EU-Japan agreement — which took effect last year — but the UK has set out further goals, including the “reduction or elimination” of Japanese tariffs on goods and agriculture and “ambitious commitments on market access” for UK services.

However, Mr Matsuura suggested there would be little time for talks on contentious areas such as tariffs and quotas. “The shortage of time means that both sides will have to limit their ambitions,” he said.

His comments raise the risk that the UK will not secure any meaningful quotas to sell agricultural goods such as beef or cheese in the Japanese market. Agriculture was one of the most contentious areas in EU-Japan trade talks.

Instead, one of the UK’s priorities is likely to be rules of origin that let British exporters continue to include European components in products they sell to Japan. Mr Matsuura declined to comment on the content of a UK-Japan deal.

In response to Tokyo’s comments, an official at the UK’s Department for International Trade said: “We will be fighting for British farmers’ access to the Japanese market as part of a deal along with ambitious digital and data chapters.”

Another senior DIT official added that data and digital services was the UK’s primary focus in the negotiations. Last month, Ms Truss said she hoped for a “comprehensive” UK-Japan agreement that “goes further than the deal previously agreed with the EU”.

Tokyo is dangling the prospect of a second chance for more leisurely negotiations if the UK applies to join the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal with 11 Pacific nations, including Japan, Canada, Malaysia and Vietnam, adding to the pressure for a quick deal now.

With work on other trade deals largely complete, Japan has put almost all of its veteran negotiators to work on intensive talks with their British counterparts. “We are doing this deal differently to the usual style. Instead of rounds of talks, we are negotiating every single day,” Mr Matsuura said.

Since travel is not possible because of Covid-19, the negotiations are taking place on video calls between private houses in the UK and Japan, making them unusual in format as well as speed.

[martin_p]

The link worked for me without having to subscribe - but here you go...

Japan rushes UK to agree first post-Brexit trade deal

Britain under pressure to meet Tokyo’s 6-week timetable, meaning key areas such as agriculture may suffer

Japan has given the UK just six weeks to strike a post-Brexit deal, putting Boris Johnson’s government under pressure to agree one of the fastest trade negotiations in history — and Britain’s first in more than 40 years.

Time is so short that both sides will need to “limit their ambitions”, warned Hiroshi Matsuura, Tokyo’s chief negotiator, in comments that dash UK hopes of winning deep trade liberalisation from Japan.

While meeting the timetable would hand Mr Johnson an early trade victory, it also highlights the risk of the UK being bounced into bad deals before the Brexit transition expires at the end of the year.

Striking a trade agreement with Japan is one of the main priorities for Liz Truss, the UK’s trade secretary, who hailed the start of talks as a “historic moment” for both countries. When the talks began two weeks ago, she said the UK and Japan had signed up to an “ambitious timeline” to complete the negotiations.

Most comprehensive free trade deals normally take years to agree, but Mr Matsuura said there was almost no time left if Japan was going to ratify a deal this year.

We are doing this deal differently to the usual style. Instead of rounds of talks, we are negotiating every single day

Hiroshi Matsuura, Japan’s chief negotiator
“To avoid a gap in January, we must pass this in the autumn session of the Diet [the Japanese parliament],” he told the Financial Times. “That means we must complete negotiations by the end of July.”

Last year’s “mini-deal” between Japan and the US took six months to negotiate, although it was not finalised until September and still passed the Diet by December. That suggests there may be some flexibility in Mr Matsuura’s July deadline.

Both sides have agreed to base a deal on the existing EU-Japan agreement — which took effect last year — but the UK has set out further goals, including the “reduction or elimination” of Japanese tariffs on goods and agriculture and “ambitious commitments on market access” for UK services.

However, Mr Matsuura suggested there would be little time for talks on contentious areas such as tariffs and quotas. “The shortage of time means that both sides will have to limit their ambitions,” he said.

His comments raise the risk that the UK will not secure any meaningful quotas to sell agricultural goods such as beef or cheese in the Japanese market. Agriculture was one of the most contentious areas in EU-Japan trade talks.

Instead, one of the UK’s priorities is likely to be rules of origin that let British exporters continue to include European components in products they sell to Japan. Mr Matsuura declined to comment on the content of a UK-Japan deal.

In response to Tokyo’s comments, an official at the UK’s Department for International Trade said: “We will be fighting for British farmers’ access to the Japanese market as part of a deal along with ambitious digital and data chapters.”

Another senior DIT official added that data and digital services was the UK’s primary focus in the negotiations. Last month, Ms Truss said she hoped for a “comprehensive” UK-Japan agreement that “goes further than the deal previously agreed with the EU”.

Tokyo is dangling the prospect of a second chance for more leisurely negotiations if the UK applies to join the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal with 11 Pacific nations, including Japan, Canada, Malaysia and Vietnam, adding to the pressure for a quick deal now.

With work on other trade deals largely complete, Japan has put almost all of its veteran negotiators to work on intensive talks with their British counterparts. “We are doing this deal differently to the usual style. Instead of rounds of talks, we are negotiating every single day,” Mr Matsuura said.

Since travel is not possible because of Covid-19, the negotiations are taking place on video calls between private houses in the UK and Japan, making them unusual in format as well as speed.

Thanks for posting this, but it’s not hard to find other newspaper articles that have a less optimistic angle (and by optimistic I mean spending time and money on ensuring we have a deal not worse than the one the EU has with Japan).

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.ind ... html%3famp

[clarethomer]

Yeah, I can see the independent and FT one were posted around 3rd week of june.

Here is another one which has been posted 1st July

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/13033 ... -EU-latest which looks to be sourced similarly here

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... KKBN2413S1

[martin_p]

Yeah, I can see the independent and FT one were posted around 3rd week of june.

Here is another one which has been posted 1st July

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/13033 ... -EU-latest which looks to be sourced similarly here

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... KKBN2413S1

Ah Liz Truss is in charge, the whole six weeks will be taken up with her trying to push British cheese on Japan.

[clarethomer]

Interestingly a week later..

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/13064 ... lks-latest

They are sensationally reporting trade deal blunders in their title but when you read it, the article offers nothing to suggest that there is a chance that Japan could decide we are desperate and force us to accept lots of concessions and this comes from a view of some form of think tank/research company. I am not suggesting you are just basing your views of headlines but I can see how this could lead people to form views without properly reading and considering.

Just reading through the independent article you have presented. I have understood you have felt this takes a less optimistic view of us getting a similar deal to the EU.

I would take your view from the following part of the article.

"Japan has been quite cautious about agreeing to new trade terms with the UK while the UK-EU negotiations were ongoing. At the same, many Japanese companies have made long-term investments in the UK as the gateway to the EU market – those investments will be heavily impacted by the end of the year when the transition period ends. Even a UK-EU FTA (free trade agreement) will not allow Japanese companies to maintain current supply chains,” she said."

“The deal is likely to be limited to current concessions under the EU-Japan agreement rather than provide any additional benefits for the UK. The agreement will be much more of a continuity agreement than a new, comprehensive deal. From the Japanese perspective, it would be aimed at securing as much of its current UK supply chains as possible. For example, Japan would likely be willing to agree to a form of cumulation of origin that would ensure that Japanese products can still be considered as originating inputs for goods exported to the EU and vice versa.”

She said that the Japanese government is “well aware of what the lack of a continuity agreement would mean for Japanese businesses”, suggesting it would be keen to sign an agreement in time and avoid disruption to its own businesses.

British officials say they will not accept “rollbacks” on UK market access to Japan and that both sides have already agreed to work quickly to provide continuity at the end of the year.

A British government spokesperson said: “Both sides are committed to an ambitious timeline to secure a deal that will enter into force by the end of 2020 if at all possible. Our priority is to maintain and enhance the trading relationship between our two countries.”

To me this is presenting what the FT presented in terms of it is expected if we are to agree a deal by the end of the year, we need to conclude this shortly and it's probably only realistic to expect so much based on a short negotiation period.

What we can't say is how these deals will be able to develop over time. We could benefit/lose out depending on a lot of factors BUT that is the whole point - its not a win/lose situation with any of this, its about evolving our future and our journey beyond the EU will offer both challenges and opportunities. Pulling apart one small part of this is unlikely to determine the success/failure of brexit.

[martin_p]

Interestingly a week later..

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/13064 ... lks-latest

They are sensationally reporting trade deal blunders in their title but when you read it, the article offers nothing to suggest that there is a chance that Japan could decide we are desperate and force us to accept lots of concessions and this comes from a view of some form of think tank/research company. I am not suggesting you are just basing your views of headlines but I can see how this could lead people to form views without properly reading and considering.

Just reading through the independent article you have presented. I have understood you have felt this takes a less optimistic view of us getting a similar deal to the EU.

I would take your view from the following part of the article.

"Japan has been quite cautious about agreeing to new trade terms with the UK while the UK-EU negotiations were ongoing. At the same, many Japanese companies have made long-term investments in the UK as the gateway to the EU market – those investments will be heavily impacted by the end of the year when the transition period ends. Even a UK-EU FTA (free trade agreement) will not allow Japanese companies to maintain current supply chains,” she said."

“The deal is likely to be limited to current concessions under the EU-Japan agreement rather than provide any additional benefits for the UK. The agreement will be much more of a continuity agreement than a new, comprehensive deal. From the Japanese perspective, it would be aimed at securing as much of its current UK supply chains as possible. For example, Japan would likely be willing to agree to a form of cumulation of origin that would ensure that Japanese products can still be considered as originating inputs for goods exported to the EU and vice versa.”

She said that the Japanese government is “well aware of what the lack of a continuity agreement would mean for Japanese businesses”, suggesting it would be keen to sign an agreement in time and avoid disruption to its own businesses.

British officials say they will not accept “rollbacks” on UK market access to Japan and that both sides have already agreed to work quickly to provide continuity at the end of the year.

A British government spokesperson said: “Both sides are committed to an ambitious timeline to secure a deal that will enter into force by the end of 2020 if at all possible. Our priority is to maintain and enhance the trading relationship between our two countries.”

To me this is presenting what the FT presented in terms of it is expected if we are to agree a deal by the end of the year, we need to conclude this shortly and it's probably only realistic to expect so much based on a short negotiation period.

What we can't say is how these deals will be able to develop over time. We could benefit/lose out depending on a lot of factors BUT that is the whole point - its not a win/lose situation with any of this, its about evolving our future and our journey beyond the EU will offer both challenges and opportunities. Pulling apart one small part of this is unlikely to determine the success/failure of brexit.

I had read the Express article and not just the headline. But as you say, someone who knows about more than this than either of us suggests Japan may force concessions so it’s not an unreasonable viewpoint to take. The Independent article also takes this view.

[clarethomer]

I don't think I have credited the director of a research company as someone as a credible source to base a view on. All I have said is that someone in that role has suggested this could be the case which has allowed a media outlet to create clickbait and use words like 'blunder', 'may' and 'could'. None of which actually tell us what is happening in the negotiations.

Would you give any credibility to a pundit who states today that Burnley could go down next season and may not be able to compete given what has happened in the world this year? They are likely to be bottom at christmas and we may see Pope, Tarks and McNeill sold?

Or would you say, yeah they could and may but lets see what happens?

If I was to take snippets from articles like this to form a view

Japan’s chief negotiator to Britain, Hiroshi Matsuura, said at the end of May that Japan wanted to clinch a deal as a matter of “highest priority”. He added that Japan’s demands would be based on the trade agreements that the nation already has with the EU.

But he added that in certain areas, Japan would like to take talks with the UK to an even higher level.

Digital trade would be one such area, while Reuters added that Japan would seek to get at least the same automobile tariffs as it currently gets with the EU.

Who has more understanding of what is going on? Research director explaining what could happen, or the person at the table saying what he hopes to influence in the conversations which will actually make something happen?

[martin_p]

Would you give any credibility to a pundit who states today that Burnley could go down next season and may not be able to compete given what has happened in the world this year? They are likely to be bottom at christmas and we may see Pope, Tarks and McNeill sold?

Or would you say, yeah they could and may but lets see what happens?

I’d absolutely believe that pundit was credible yes.

[dsr]

I’d absolutely believe that pundit was credible yes.

You agree Burnley are likely to be bottom at Christmas? That's surely taking pessimism too far.

[martin_p]

You agree Burnley are likely to be bottom at Christmas? That's surely taking pessimism too far.

I’d say it was a valid viewpoint based on the pundit’s knowledge of the game, just as the viewpoint that Japan could use the short timescale to look for lots of concessions is valid from a think tank specialising in the subject.

[AndrewJB]

The easiest thing for the Japanese would be to roll over the existing EU free trade deal to cover the IK. The fact they haven’t done this suggests they want to make changes. It’s unlikely they want to make changes to benefit the UK rather than themselves.

[clarethomer]

But you know that the pundit has a 50/50 chance of being right at this stage.

I think most people would brush that off as the pundit knows nothing credible at this stage but is merely offering a view.

The research director in that article is saying it could happen and the chief negotiator for Japan is saying it’s likely that they will achieve a positive outcome.

You take the pessimism of someone who can’t influence the outcome over the optimism of someone who can... that’s a bit bizarre to me.

[dsr]

The easiest thing for the Japanese would be to roll over the existing EU free trade deal to cover the IK. The fact they haven’t done this suggests they want to make changes. It’s unlikely they want to make changes to benefit the UK rather than themselves.

The idea of free trade is to benefit both sides. There has been a lot of this sort of attitude, that in every deal there is a winner and a loser. It doesn't work like that. A good deal benefits both sides. If it doesn't benefit both sides, it's not a good deal for either side.