It's not just about Brexit

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martin_p
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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by martin_p » Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:05 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:02 pm
The EU has repeatedly failed to secure its borders, it's almost like they can't come up with a proper plan to do it, which is odd for such a big trading bloc.
If course due to the lack of Borders within the EU, once these migrants are in there is no way of keeping track of them.

Due to the agreement we've signed up too, we're obliged to take x amount of these migrants.
We don't deport them like we should be and nor does anyone else in the EU I suspect.
It's completely disorganised.

Once we are out properly we can only hope we finally have a gov who will do what's needed.

I'd also like to think they won't allow 'kids' in on their own when it's clear as day that they're actually full grown adults.
But the government has the power to deport them now, why will leaving the EU make it more likely, especially if, as suggested above, it’ll be harder.

We’re not putting a wall across the channel, as many are as likely to come as now.

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by Jakubclaret » Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:13 pm

I don't think some people on here commenting realise just how many slip through the net by absconding before being placed in strict detention & then sent away, with the best will in the world with human rights & all that bureaucracy that delays it in addition to the people escaping the system, if you've fled a war torn country & probably paid somebody to ensure that you've arrived here by then you've already got a job lined up, you are not just going to leave here without putting up 1 hell of a fight, kicking & screaming doesn't even scratch the surface.

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by Zlatan » Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:30 pm

I posted on another thread that disappeared for some unknown reason, but there is a main reason these migrants want to come here and it’s linguistic in nature. English is most nations second language of choice (probably because of previous colonisation by GB).

I also said I welcome migrants who go through all sorts of trouble to get here because it’s what I would do in their situation - wouldn’t you want to do the best for yourself and your family?

I also welcome them because they show determination and courage to get here and those are qualities I like to see in people wherever they’re from.
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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:12 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:30 am
Cheers for that Sid, saves me saying it. 👍🌞

Just a quick point. Serco , last year, were awarded a 4 BILLION POUND for a 10 YEAR CONTRACT using tax payers money from the Tory government. This is for housing illegal immigrants. Some of whom are dispersed on air conditioned coaches to places like the 4 star hotel at Bromsgrove, fully booked up for at least 12 months. Mike Graham on Talkradio has being doing great journalism on this and has uncovered a multi billion pound industry built on the illegal trafficking of people by exploitative and ruthless criminal gangs. They are charging illegal immigrants upto 5000 quid a pop. On this side of the channel, Serco , run by brother of remainer Tory grandee, nicholas soames, Rupert Soames are literally making billions off the back of it. His research has shed a light on "City of Sanctuary" status, that towns are adopting. It effectively means that Serco contacts local councils who are given financial rewards for housing new arrivals AHEAD of locals in the housing queue. Several local councillors rang in to his Talkradio show to confirm this to be fact.

A ten year contract? Mmmm, doesn't sound like the tories are planning stopping this racket any time soon.
I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make. We should stop the PFI scam that is Serco? Build more social housing to ensure nobody is left homeless? I think about half the people who arrive here on boats are genuine asylum seekers,so was your use of the word “illegal” meant only to cover those with no genuine refugee status? Are you angry that not all of the are dispersed on air conditioned coaches? Or was the post designed only to tap into the well of anger and resentment we have in the country, when in actual fact only a tiny number of people enter the U.K. this way?
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clarethomer
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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by clarethomer » Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:21 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:56 pm
I wasn't calling you out for name calling. I was highlighting how you revert to name calling and adhominem attacks when somebody sticks to the subject and forces a serious discussion on each others arguments.

I have no problem with you or anyone else calling me names as you get what you give out and the self awareness bit was about how you accuse him of things and call him names about things that really apply to you and others like you i.e. projecting
Look, I have no problem with anyone when it comes to general discussion.

I am of the opinion that we are all burnley fans and we share a common passion/interest.

This message board gives us all the freedom to post on more than football. It when individuals blatantly spew their political opinion as facts and push their views in such a consistent manner and post with such consistent disregard to being able to back it up.

adhominem - (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining

I think you will find that my responses are against the position they are maintaining - there is plenty of evidence on this thread which shows this.

I despise his political views as, at times, they promote an opposing but similarly extreme ideology found on the right. I also do add in some inferences into his political leaning now - because I think it adds to the point that most of what his post is driven by this position than by being fact or truth.

Where I see posts by him or anyone else where they have some grounds of fact and truth, I don't normally respond because I'm not out to create an argument just for the sake of it. Therefore I don't do it because of who is posting regardless of what they say.

It is with this point to why I think my responses are not adhominem in nature.

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by JohnMcGreal » Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:41 pm

Rowls wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:06 pm
Hmmmmmm. When did you last go to Switzerland?

There were plenty of border controls when I was last there.
Not for a good few years. When was the last time you went? They have re-imposed some border controls since the start of the pandemic, granted.

But prior to this there have been no permanent passport controls at the Swiss border since 2008. There are however some customs controls, as Switzerland is not in the EU customs union.

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:18 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:04 pm
So you've quoted statistics from 4 years ago that shows we do return migrants back after your original point was we didn't return migrants back - gee I bet you weren't missed on the debating team
We don't sent enough back you smarmy bellend.

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:19 pm

martin_p wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:05 pm
But the government has the power to deport them now, why will leaving the EU make it more likely, especially if, as suggested above, it’ll be harder.

We’re not putting a wall across the channel, as many are as likely to come as now.
If you don't know where they entered the EU or which country they originally left then where do we deport them too?

The EU is failing to control its borders, they're meant to be processing all migrants so they can keep track of them but they aren't.

If it was being done then we could send them back, but it isn't.

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by Rowls » Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:25 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:41 pm
Not for a good few years. When was the last time you went? They have re-imposed some border controls since the start of the pandemic, granted.

But prior to this there have been no permanent passport controls at the Swiss border since 2008. There are however some customs controls, as Switzerland is not in the EU customs union.
2015. From France on the train.

Very strong border presence and lots of checks.

Passports required.

Before then, via road in 2009.

There are open road borders but there are also lots of checks and if there are known problems then police presences are upped and checks on tourists etc ramped up.

This thing about not requiring a passport is a misnomer to any British citizens because we don't have identity card as most EU nations do. If you're a British person in Switzerland without a passport you WILL be "asked" to leave the country.

The only place in Switzerland I would ever feel comfortable about not having my passport actually on my person would be inside a hotel room.
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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by dsr » Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:36 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:10 am
"The fundamental point being that the Gotthard tunnel is a railway line that goes from outside the EU to inside the EU with no apparent problems" .......... because Switzerland is part of the Schengen Area. Surely that's the main underlying point?
(The UK isn't and that's the fundamental difference)
Even the Guardian wouldn't bother writing an article about the difficulties caused by leaving the EU because previously we weren't in the Schengen area and now we still aren't. Nothing has changed there.

There is a difference between railway lines from Switzerland to Italy compared with England to France, but the Schengen Area relates only to immigration and not to how the signals work.

What the Guardian is concerned about is that the Channel Tunnel is partly under French jurisdiction and partly under UK jurisdiction, and previously both the UK and France were under ECJ jurisdiction. Now we aren't. And the Guardian is concerned that if we aren't under the same ultimate jurisdiction, the drivers from France will no longer have the same qualification as the drivers from the UK (they don't now, as it happens, so I don't know why they raise that one) and that if there is ever a dispute over what signals to use, there is no clearly stated rules to which of the most senior judges in Europe can give the decision. (Personally I wouldn't have thought that was a decision that ever needs to go to a the most senior court in the EU, but the Guardian is worried that it might.)

Basically, the Guardian is concerned that a railway running between two countries that do not have the same Supreme Court is fraught with difficulties and likely to be chaotic. I reckon the many hundreds of wordwide railways that do exactly that would suggest that they are exaggerating the difficulties.

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by martin_p » Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:00 pm

dsr wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:36 pm
Even the Guardian wouldn't bother writing an article about the difficulties caused by leaving the EU because previously we weren't in the Schengen area and now we still aren't. Nothing has changed there.

There is a difference between railway lines from Switzerland to Italy compared with England to France, but the Schengen Area relates only to immigration and not to how the signals work.

What the Guardian is concerned about is that the Channel Tunnel is partly under French jurisdiction and partly under UK jurisdiction, and previously both the UK and France were under ECJ jurisdiction. Now we aren't. And the Guardian is concerned that if we aren't under the same ultimate jurisdiction, the drivers from France will no longer have the same qualification as the drivers from the UK (they don't now, as it happens, so I don't know why they raise that one) and that if there is ever a dispute over what signals to use, there is no clearly stated rules to which of the most senior judges in Europe can give the decision. (Personally I wouldn't have thought that was a decision that ever needs to go to a the most senior court in the EU, but the Guardian is worried that it might.)

Basically, the Guardian is concerned that a railway running between two countries that do not have the same Supreme Court is fraught with difficulties and likely to be chaotic. I reckon the many hundreds of wordwide railways that do exactly that would suggest that they are exaggerating the difficulties.
The Guardian is a newspaper and reports things that happen and in this case has also sought expert opinion on the matter. The thing that has happened here is, and I quote from the article,

‘ The European commission has this week asked the European parliament and the European council to officially mandate France to urgently negotiate a new bilateral deal with the UK giving the ECJ the powers to resolve future disputes between the two countries as “union law would not longer be applicable to the part of the channel fixed link under the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom” after Brexit.’

The experts quoted list a number of potential issues, but of course you know better than the experts quoted in the article, you always have.
Last edited by martin_p on Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

martin_p
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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by martin_p » Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:01 pm

Edit - duplicate post

dsr
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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by dsr » Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:17 pm

martin_p wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:00 pm
The Guardian is a newspaper and reports things that happen and in this case has also sought expert opinion on the matter. The thing that has happened here is, and I quote from the article,

‘ The European commission has this week asked the European parliament and the European council to officially mandate France to urgently negotiate a new bilateral deal with the UK giving the ECJ the powers to resolve future disputes between the two countries as “union law would not longer be applicable to the part of the channel fixed link under the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom” after Brexit.’

The experts quoted list a number of potential issues, but of course you know better than the experts quoted in the article, you always have.
I realise the expert called "a source" and the expert called "a senior official" are hard to contradict, being so well qualified. But the expert called Steve Peers, law professor at the university of Essex, who on the face of it has the best qualifications of the three, says that having ECJ jurisdiction over the UK half of the line would be odd, and cites the Treaty of Canterbury as an alternative framework.

That seems a bit more persuasive than Mr. Source's comment that running a railway between two countries with different jurisdictions is like driving on the left and right hand side of the road at the same time. Mr Source doesn't make it clear whether this applies to all railways anywhere in the world, or whether the problems only apply between the UK and France.

Out of interest, why no mention of the Belfast-Dublin railway? Presumably the same problems will apply to that. Will trains still be able to function between Northern and Southern Ireland when the ECJ does not have jurisdiction over Northern Ireland?

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by CombatClaret » Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:20 pm

A company that backed Brexit and has donated to the Conservatives is in line to save £73m as the only direct beneficiary of a post-Brexit trade reform.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... are_btn_tw

Former Direct: David Davis.
Tory Corruption.

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by martin_p » Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:31 pm

dsr wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:17 pm
I realise the expert called "a source" and the expert called "a senior official" are hard to contradict, being so well qualified. But the expert called Steve Peers, law professor at the university of Essex, who on the face of it has the best qualifications of the three, says that having ECJ jurisdiction over the UK half of the line would be odd, and cites the Treaty of Canterbury as an alternative framework.

That seems a bit more persuasive than Mr. Source's comment that running a railway between two countries with different jurisdictions is like driving on the left and right hand side of the road at the same time. Mr Source doesn't make it clear whether this applies to all railways anywhere in the world, or whether the problems only apply between the UK and France.

Out of interest, why no mention of the Belfast-Dublin railway? Presumably the same problems will apply to that. Will trains still be able to function between Northern and Southern Ireland when the ECJ does not have jurisdiction over Northern Ireland?
Nice selective use of the experts there, missing the EU law expert that says without the inclusion of the ECJ we’re likely to have a very thin trade deal.

One would imagine NI doesn’t have to same issue as the channel tunnel as the ECJ have been given jurisdiction over a number of things in NI as part of the NI deal (that’s me surmising, not sure).
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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by Jakubclaret » Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:23 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:12 pm
I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make. We should stop the PFI scam that is Serco? Build more social housing to ensure nobody is left homeless? I think about half the people who arrive here on boats are genuine asylum seekers,so was your use of the word “illegal” meant only to cover those with no genuine refugee status? Are you angry that not all of the are dispersed on air conditioned coaches? Or was the post designed only to tap into the well of anger and resentment we have in the country, when in actual fact only a tiny number of people enter the U.K. this way?
Realistically speaking you are probably looking at 25% of the UK workforce working illegally & evading tax & other deductions viewing as an estimate, it might appear high but that's also including UK nationals scooping cash in hand you can deduct from that to find the real figure, whichever way it will result in a high figure.

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:37 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:23 pm
Realistically speaking you are probably looking at 25% of the UK workforce working illegally & evading tax & other deductions viewing as an estimate, it might appear high but that's also including UK nationals scooping cash in hand you can deduct from that to find the real figure, whichever way it will result in a high figure.
How have you arrived at that figure?

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:04 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:37 pm
How have you arrived at that figure?
Millions of self employed cook the books.
Then you've got places like the sweatshops in Leicester.
Then there are those that are officially unemployed but work cash in hand, or have a job but work extra on the side.
Add in the celebs/sports stars with their tax avoidance schemes and the mega corporations who funnel their money through other countries.

Yeah its probably a decent % that avoid paying the correct amount of tax.

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by dsr » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:06 am

martin_p wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:31 pm
Nice selective use of the experts there, missing the EU law expert that says without the inclusion of the ECJ we’re likely to have a very thin trade deal.

One would imagine NI doesn’t have to same issue as the channel tunnel as the ECJ have been given jurisdiction over a number of things in NI as part of the NI deal (that’s me surmising, not sure).
Now you're getting weird. All this bit of conversation has been about the Eurolink railway. Why have you suddenly brought in an unrelated comment about the trade deal? This "problem" is not about international trade, it's about whether or not the UK side of the railway should operate under UK law.

In case you hadn't noticed, the Guardian introduction to the trade agreement paragraph starts "On the wider issue of the ECJ ..." - meaning they have changed the subject. In their case, deliberately.

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by martin_p » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:20 am

dsr wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:06 am
Now you're getting weird. All this bit of conversation has been about the Eurolink railway. Why have you suddenly brought in an unrelated comment about the trade deal? This "problem" is not about international trade, it's about whether or not the UK side of the railway should operate under UK law.

In case you hadn't noticed, the Guardian introduction to the trade agreement paragraph starts "On the wider issue of the ECJ ..." - meaning they have changed the subject. In their case, deliberately.
So you think the UK government is just against ECJ jurisdiction over a bit of the U.K. rail network? Or might it be part of the wider issue of the U.K. government not wanting ECJ involvement in anything?

The U.K. government is being a bit daft over this one to be honest. I’d let the EU have a little victory over the tunnel thing to be honest, in its 25 year plus operation there’s been little the court would have needed to get involved in anyway.

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by Rowls » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:26 am

martin_p wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:20 am
So you think the UK government is just against ECJ jurisdiction over a bit of the U.K. rail network? Or might it be part of the wider issue of the U.K. government not wanting ECJ involvement in anything?

The U.K. government is being a bit daft over this one to be honest. I’d let the EU have a little victory over the tunnel thing to be honest, in its 25 year plus operation there’s been little the court would have needed to get involved in anyway.
I'll level with you guys - I've been out and I've had a few beers. It's normally my best practice not to post at all in this state.

But rather than let the ECJ have a "little victory" by ceding them part of our sovereign railway network that happens to be half-way to France and under the sea, I'd much rather cede Blackburn.

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by Rowls » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:27 am

Let the ECJ have full jurisdiction of Blackburn and see how they fare.

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by aggi » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:32 am

Jakubclaret wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:23 pm
Realistically speaking you are probably looking at 25% of the UK workforce working illegally & evading tax & other deductions viewing as an estimate, it might appear high but that's also including UK nationals scooping cash in hand you can deduct from that to find the real figure, whichever way it will result in a high figure.
This is top Jakubclareting
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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:48 am

dsr wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:06 am
Now you're getting weird. All this bit of conversation has been about the Eurolink railway. Why have you suddenly brought in an unrelated comment about the trade deal? This "problem" is not about international trade, it's about whether or not the UK side of the railway should operate under UK law.

In case you hadn't noticed, the Guardian introduction to the trade agreement paragraph starts "On the wider issue of the ECJ ..." - meaning they have changed the subject. In their case, deliberately.
The problem is how you can have half of the tunnel operating under one law and half the tunnel operating under another where for example the train driver would need two separate sets of qualifications to work on the route.

France has authority from the EU to solely negotiate the new arrangements with the UK on behalf of the EU but under the proviso it must meet current EU standards and regulations

As currently I dont believe either side has any issues with the current regulations then it should be easy to just replicate the current deal. The sticking point is around the arbitrator process for interpreting and settling disputes legal disputes in the future

If arbitrators are being asked to interpret EU law and the result would be binding on the EU or its Member States, the CJEU's final jurisdiction can't be avoided, according to its own case law. This is why the EU will insist on the being the final arbitrator.

Now it is highly unlikely the channel tunnel regulations that will be covered by this new agreement will come under dispute however as per above the EU's own laws dictate the ECJ must have final say on any rulings that can impact EU law.

The UK could simply agree to this and it would likely never be heard of again but as we have seen time and time again with this govt its whole approach has been around posturing and selling their message to their brexit supporters and so the news story is how will Johnson manage this

Will he do the simple, sensible and practical thing and agree to the ECJ being the arbitrator but risk upsetting his core support or will he risk causing chaos and disruption around the new agreement but be able to paint the EU as the bad guys to the joy of his No Deal Brexiteers

I suspect that there will be a way round it that gives the ECJ final control other potential changes that would effect EU law but is able to be sold as a win for us - in the same way I expect the Japan trade deal to be worse than our current EU deal but will be sold to the brexiteers (who will lap up any old rubbish) that it is just as good as the EU deal

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by dsr » Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:05 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:48 am
The problem is how you can have half of the tunnel operating under one law and half the tunnel operating under another where for example the train driver would need two separate sets of qualifications to work on the route.

France has authority from the EU to solely negotiate the new arrangements with the UK on behalf of the EU but under the proviso it must meet current EU standards and regulations

As currently I dont believe either side has any issues with the current regulations then it should be easy to just replicate the current deal. The sticking point is around the arbitrator process for interpreting and settling disputes legal disputes in the future

If arbitrators are being asked to interpret EU law and the result would be binding on the EU or its Member States, the CJEU's final jurisdiction can't be avoided, according to its own case law. This is why the EU will insist on the being the final arbitrator.

Now it is highly unlikely the channel tunnel regulations that will be covered by this new agreement will come under dispute however as per above the EU's own laws dictate the ECJ must have final say on any rulings that can impact EU law.

The UK could simply agree to this and it would likely never be heard of again but as we have seen time and time again with this govt its whole approach has been around posturing and selling their message to their brexit supporters and so the news story is how will Johnson manage this

Will he do the simple, sensible and practical thing and agree to the ECJ being the arbitrator but risk upsetting his core support or will he risk causing chaos and disruption around the new agreement but be able to paint the EU as the bad guys to the joy of his No Deal Brexiteers

I suspect that there will be a way round it that gives the ECJ final control other potential changes that would effect EU law but is able to be sold as a win for us - in the same way I expect the Japan trade deal to be worse than our current EU deal but will be sold to the brexiteers (who will lap up any old rubbish) that it is just as good as the EU deal
As for the question about how a railway line can operate between two countries, that's the sort of thing they ought to have worked out before they started operations. Are you saying that the drivers have been running under two separate sets of laws for all these years and they have never considered the issue of driver qualifications and so on? The law was never changed to make the law of England and the law of France the same. Drivers have always had different but mutually recognised qualifications.

This isn't a new issue. This has happened loads of times before. What happened when Finland joined the EU? Or Estonia? Did Russia accept ECJ jurisdiction over the operation of the railway, or was another way found?

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by JohnMcGreal » Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:24 am

martin_p wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:31 pm
Nice selective use of the experts there, missing the EU law expert that says without the inclusion of the ECJ we’re likely to have a very thin trade deal.

One would imagine NI doesn’t have to same issue as the channel tunnel as the ECJ have been given jurisdiction over a number of things in NI as part of the NI deal (that’s me surmising, not sure).
That's right. A lot of EU law will still apply to NI after the transition period, and the CJEU will still have jurisdiction there, despite NI having no representation in the EU and no say on how those laws are made.

It was all in the oven-ready deal that Boris sold to the electorate and his own MPs in December.

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by Bfcboyo » Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:31 am


martin_p
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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by martin_p » Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:54 am

Lying by telling the truth would be progress for the current government!

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:10 am

dsr wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:05 am
As for the question about how a railway line can operate between two countries, that's the sort of thing they ought to have worked out before they started operations. Are you saying that the drivers have been running under two separate sets of laws for all these years and they have never considered the issue of driver qualifications and so on? The law was never changed to make the law of England and the law of France the same. Drivers have always had different but mutually recognised qualifications.
I covered this in my post.

Currently it operates under one set of regulations agreed between the two countrys and it will continue to do with the agreement and this is not the problem

At the moment both country's have to adhere to the standards of EU law and look to the ECJ as a final arbitrator as we are both part of it. Soon the UK wont be tied to EU standards however this still should not be a problem as the current operating codes, regs and standards aren't disputed and is not contentious and something the UK wants to move away from.

It is possible in the future one side could do something that the other side thinks breaks the agreement and we could get a legal dispute. Contracts are complex things and at this kind of level if one govt wants to do something they will look for all sorts of grey areas and loopholes to try and legally win their case.

Again in reality this is pretty much a nothing issue because there is nothing contentious that is ever likely to see a dispute of this nature but it needs to be covered and so it needs to be agreed what international court will have the final say and act as the arbitrator

This is where it gets complicated. Technically a dispute could result in a legal decision that goes against EU law. As I mentioned EU case law dictates that they cant let this happen and in this case would need the ECJ to have the final ruling. (remember this will unlikely never be needed but this is current EU law)

Now if Brussels were really this undemocratic all powerful group of Bureaucrats they could simply just make an exception and ignore the EU law as in reality there is no threat in this scenario. As the EU is a democratic institution then to make some kind of legal exception for the channel tunnels it would need new legislation and all 27 member states would need to be consulted

The alternative and obvious answer to this is to just agree to have the ECJ have the role as arbitrator. As ive laboured there is nothing contentious about the operation of the channel tunnel so this is just the easiest and most practical decision to just replicate the current agreement and keep the things moving with no disruption or impact from us leaving the EU (isnt this what we want and what Brexiteers have kept telling us will be able to make happen - hint: on this subject this brexit view holds true)

The problem is that the govt and the hard Brexiteers often put ideology over whats best for us when it comes to the EU and in this case that ideology is under no circumstance should the ECJ be able to rule over us even in something as non contentious and straight forward as the Channel Tunnel

So in summary:
  • Rolling over the current operating regs into a new legal agreement is no problem.
  • Future relationship on this matter between us and France is no problem.
  • Now we are not both in the EU a legal dispute arbitrator but this should never really be need to be used but legally is just something that is needed
  • EU case law states the ECJ must be the arbitrator (for the reasons Ive described) and to change this would need the EU to draft new legislation and get agreement from all member states. The time, cost and effort to do this is not practical and in the timelines we have would cause disruption
  • The UK has the decision to accept the ECJ as the arbitrator and in reality continue as we are or make an ideological stand and suddenly the Channel Tunnel becomes a standoff and potentially another Brexit battleground
Finally this is just my interpretation and I accept (and hope) that as my knowledge and expertise in this area is relatively zero to those involved in the discussion there might well be a workable compromise to get around this without going against our ideology or the EU's case law

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by Jakubclaret » Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:41 pm

aggi wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:32 am
This is top Jakubclareting
If you want to challenge my estimate there’s nothing stopping you, you would gain more respect by that method of countering my post, my estimates are taking into consideration the illegal workforce within the towns & cities thus increasing the overall percentages.

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:36 pm


aggi
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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by aggi » Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:50 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:41 pm
If you want to challenge my estimate there’s nothing stopping you, you would gain more respect by that method of countering my post, my estimates are taking into consideration the illegal workforce within the towns & cities thus increasing the overall percentages.
Equally you could give some basis for your estimate.

Realistically though 25% is very high. The vast majority (something like 85%-88%) are on PAYE which isn't that conducive to tax evasion so you'd need the vast, vast majority of the self employed to be evading tax to get anywhere near 25% which isn't realistic.

Unemployment figures are low so that isn't going to have a material impact on your figure and there just aren't that many illegal immigrants to balance your figures unless you're seriously suggesting that there's an extra ten million people that no-one has noticed.

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by Jakubclaret » Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:35 pm

aggi wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:50 pm
Equally you could give some basis for your estimate.

Realistically though 25% is very high. The vast majority (something like 85%-88%) are on PAYE which isn't that conducive to tax evasion so you'd need the vast, vast majority of the self employed to be evading tax to get anywhere near 25% which isn't realistic.

Unemployment figures are low so that isn't going to have a material impact on your figure and there just aren't that many illegal immigrants to balance your figures unless you're seriously suggesting that there's an extra ten million people that no-one has noticed.
How do you realistically know how many people aren't working cash in hand or aren't illegal immigrants undetected? Yes it's 1 thing to accurately be certain about regarding the PAYE but how can you realistically be accurate about something nobody really know nothing about, you can't, an estimate is an estimate nothing more nothing less.

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by aggi » Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:47 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:35 pm
How do you realistically know how many people aren't working cash in hand or aren't illegal immigrants undetected? Yes it's 1 thing to accurately be certain about regarding the PAYE but how can you realistically be accurate about something nobody really know nothing about, you can't, an estimate is an estimate nothing more nothing less.
Because these millions of people would need somewhere to live, bank, healthcare, etc. The companies "employing" these millions of people would have weird tax returns compared to RTI which is a red flag.

It undoubtedly happens but nowhere near the scale you think. I think maybe yourself and your acquaintances skew your perception of what you think is normal.

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by dsr » Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:56 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:10 am
...

This is where it gets complicated. Technically a dispute could result in a legal decision that goes against EU law. As I mentioned EU case law dictates that they cant let this happen and in this case would need the ECJ to have the final ruling. (remember this will unlikely never be needed but this is current EU law)

...


The problem is that the govt and the hard Brexiteers often put ideology over whats best for us when it comes to the EU and in this case that ideology is under no circumstance should the ECJ be able to rule over us even in something as non contentious and straight forward as the Channel Tunnel
This is where you and I differ about what is reasonable and what is not.

Proposition: that the UK side opf the Channel Tunnel link should operate under EU law.

On the one side, we have the EU who say that their law says this cannot happen, full stop, end of. This is considered by you to be fair and reasonable and prgamatic.

On the other side, we have the UK who say that our law says this cannot happen. And you say that this is hard Brexiters putting ideology over what's best for us.

Don't you think that the view that UK laws must take precedence on UK soil is at least as valid as that view that EU laws must take precedence on UK soil?

Incidentally, I;m still interested in what they did when Estonia joined the EU. According to you, there is no way the EU could accept a railway line crossing an EU border could be operated other than under EU rules. If that's true then what happened with the line from Estonia to Russia? Did Russia accept that Estonian law takes precedence?

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by Jakubclaret » Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:59 pm

aggi wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:47 pm
Because these millions of people would need somewhere to live, bank, healthcare, etc. The companies "employing" these millions of people would have weird tax returns compared to RTI which is a red flag.

It undoubtedly happens but nowhere near the scale you think. I think maybe yourself and your acquaintances skew your perception of what you think is normal.
Need somewhere to live, I don't think you ever been into the large towns & cities, there are literally squashed into 1 house, flat, wherever there'll fit, that's how they live & that's 1 of the reasons why it's manageable for them to exist in them circumstances, you don't need to bank anything if you are paid cash in hand you simply live off your earnings, the landlords turn a blind eye because there are getting paid & can ignore any legal obligations to maintain the property, it works for the multiple tenants & the slum landlord.

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:04 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:59 pm
Need somewhere to live, I don't think you ever been into the large towns & cities, there are literally squashed into 1 house, flat, wherever there'll fit, that's how they live & that's 1 of the reasons why it's manageable for them to exist in them circumstances, you don't need to bank anything if you are paid cash in hand you simply live off your earnings, the landlords turn a blind eye because there are getting paid & can ignore any legal obligations to maintain the property, it works for the multiple tenants & the slum landlord.
A collective of people is referred to as ‘they’ not ‘there’.

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by Jakubclaret » Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:06 pm

aggi wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:47 pm
Because these millions of people would need somewhere to live, bank, healthcare, etc. The companies "employing" these millions of people would have weird tax returns compared to RTI which is a red flag.

It undoubtedly happens but nowhere near the scale you think. I think maybe yourself and your acquaintances skew your perception of what you think is normal.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -home.html
That's just 1 reported we know about, how many more exist we don't know about? You tell me.

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:30 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:06 pm
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -home.html
That's just 1 reported we know about, how many more exist we don't know about? You tell me.
It's not about being Left or Right. Its simply being right, and you are.

History will show that you had the ability, like the vast majority, to see the bigger picture.

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by aggi » Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:44 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:06 pm
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -home.html
That's just 1 reported we know about, how many more exist we don't know about? You tell me.
You want me to tell you how many of something we don't know about exists?

There probably needs to be something in the order of a third to a half a million of these properties. If there are so many then it's pretty likely that a lot are being discovered and, judging by your link, it's deemed newsworthy.

As such you should easily be able to find a few thousand of these stories. (No duplicates obviously.)

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by Jakubclaret » Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:27 am

aggi wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:44 pm
You want me to tell you how many of something we don't know about exists?

There probably needs to be something in the order of a third to a half a million of these properties. If there are so many then it's pretty likely that a lot are being discovered and, judging by your link, it's deemed newsworthy.

As such you should easily be able to find a few thousand of these stories. (No duplicates obviously.)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-53075318
The home office have even admitted themselves there don't know how many illegal immigrants are here but you doubt my estimated figures!!!

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by evensteadiereddie » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:17 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:15 pm
1, Different opinion.

2, Trolling using vile, personal and groundless accusations, aimed at other posters children.

There's is difference. A big difference.

I'm assuming this refers to our recent spat where you claimed racism and sexism are rife in all our schools and are holding white, working class boys back.
I strongly disagreed and I simply asked you to consult your lad's school to question how it was, by implication, holding your son's education back and what they intended to do about it just as any decent parent would. Nothing to disagree about there, surely ?

No trolling just a request for at least some proof you had even the tiniest idea of what you were talking about.

You wouldn't or couldn't even take that golden opportunity to add any substance whatsoever to your claim and better the prospects of those kids you reckon are being held back.

Instead, you chose - rather predictably, I suppose - to claim you and your lad had been insulted, trolled even, and threw your toys out of the pram.. :roll:

As you'd say, if Carlsberg did raising of white flags....

So, again, no trolling but if you're going to lie about me, I'll continue to put the record straight. Fair dos and all that. ;)

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by Spijed » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:26 am


aggi
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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by aggi » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:50 am

Jakubclaret wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:27 am
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-53075318
The home office have even admitted themselves there don't know how many illegal immigrants are here but you doubt my estimated figures!!!
Well yes, because the estimates are terrible.

Taken from the article The last official estimate in 2005 found about 430,000 people were in the country with no legal right to remain.

But independent research since then has put the figure at over a million, the National Audit Office said.


Your "independent research", which I suspect wasn't very rigorous, is estimating five to ten times the figure of people who actually do this kind of research properly and you have absolutely no basis for it other than a gut instinct.

Are you seriously suggesting that more than in one in ten people in the UK is an illegal immigrant?

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by Jakubclaret » Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:43 pm

aggi wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:50 am
Well yes, because the estimates are terrible.

Taken from the article The last official estimate in 2005 found about 430,000 people were in the country with no legal right to remain.

But independent research since then has put the figure at over a million, the National Audit Office said.


Your "independent research", which I suspect wasn't very rigorous, is estimating five to ten times the figure of people who actually do this kind of research properly and you have absolutely no basis for it other than a gut instinct.

Are you seriously suggesting that more than in one in ten people in the UK is an illegal immigrant?
No I'm seriously suggesting 25% as a whole percentage doesn't comprise of illegal immigrants I never stated there did, but for some strange reason you are choosing to neglect anybody else within the 25% & concentrating on the illegal immigrants in order to reduce the percentage, if you go back to my original post I stated 25% of the UK workforce including nationals, we've already finally established at this point we haven't got a clue how many illegal immigrants are here, so the estimates could be right or wrong but that's only a makeweight towards the 25% not the complete entity.

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by RingoMcCartney » Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:58 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:17 am
I'm assuming this refers to our recent spat where you claimed racism and sexism are rife in all our schools and are holding white, working class boys back.
I strongly disagreed and I simply asked you to consult your lad's school to question how it was, by implication, holding your son's education back and what they intended to do about it just as any decent parent would. Nothing to disagree about there, surely ?

No trolling just a request for at least some proof you had even the tiniest idea of what you were talking about.

You wouldn't or couldn't even take that golden opportunity to add any substance whatsoever to your claim and better the prospects of those kids you reckon are being held back.

Instead, you chose - rather predictably, I suppose - to claim you and your lad had been insulted, trolled even, and threw your toys out of the pram.. :roll:

As you'd say, if Carlsberg did raising of white flags....

So, again, no trolling but if you're going to lie about me, I'll continue to put the record straight. Fair dos and all that. ;)

Tony deemed your groundless vile comments about my son , poisonous enough to be deleted.

End of.

Now troll along. Or stick to what your apparently best at. Starting unusual, if not creepy, threads about inappropriate Audi adverts. (Why post that on a football messageboard?)

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by Swizzlestick » Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:10 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:58 pm
Tony deemed your groundless vile comments about my son , poisonous enough to be deleted.

End of.

Now troll along. Or stick to what your apparently best at. Starting unusual, if not creepy, threads about inappropriate Audi adverts. (Why post that on a football messageboard?)
The Audi advert was in the news and caused a minor controversy, what was wrong with starting a thread about it? What are you implying here?

This is why you're a nasty piece of work. Play the victim when things aren't following your narrative, then throw out nasty little innuendos out like this.

And who knew we talk about things other than football on here.

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by aggi » Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:14 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:43 pm
No I'm seriously suggesting 25% as a whole percentage doesn't comprise of illegal immigrants I never stated there did, but for some strange reason you are choosing to neglect anybody else within the 25% & concentrating on the illegal immigrants in order to reduce the percentage, if you go back to my original post I stated 25% of the UK workforce including nationals, we've already finally established at this point we haven't got a clue how many illegal immigrants are here, so the estimates could be right or wrong but that's only a makeweight towards the 25% not the complete entity.
I'm not suggesting the 25% is illegal immigrants either.

I'm saying that you can't hit your 25% based on the legal workforce so the only option is illegal immigrants.

On the other hand you can explain exactly how 25% of a workforce which is about 88% PAYE and 85% service sector are committing tax evasion? What kind of work are these people doing, for those on PAYE what extra work is not being reported and when are they all doing this work?

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by Jakubclaret » Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:26 pm

aggi wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:14 pm
I'm not suggesting the 25% is illegal immigrants either.

I'm saying that you can't hit your 25% based on the legal workforce so the only option is illegal immigrants.

On the other hand you can explain exactly how 25% of a workforce which is about 88% PAYE and 85% service sector are committing tax evasion? What kind of work are these people doing, for those on PAYE what extra work is not being reported and when are they all doing this work?
It was actually based on tax evasion that's what the 25% figure stated, it's absolutely rife people working cash in hand, so you've got the illegal immigrants here which is a uncertain but high number, you've potentially got taxi drivers, near enough every service offered on Facebook again file under potential, mobile hairdressers, gardeners, window cleaners, odd-job men, ect ect, are you trying to suggest people earning money declare all their earnings to the taxman when the taxman isn't even aware that the people are earning money, I actually think 25% is too low I'd legitimately argue far higher I'd also legitimately argue the illegal immigrants are far higher than the estimates suggest, there's a very good reason people are absolutely desperate to settle within the UK & let me reassure you it's isn't for our weather.

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Re: It's not just about Brexit

Post by TheFamilyCat » Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:36 pm

25% of the UK workforce screwing the system but nobody (other than a crank on a football messageboard) batting an eyelid. I mean, it could happen.

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