It's not just about Brexit

[tiger76]

Trade deal negotiations with the US have been postponed until next spring.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/13220 ... -biden/amp

Is that a bad thing, by next spring Trump could be out, and we might have a chance of talking to a rational POTUS, what this does show is that trade talks can be deferred when the will is there, so why can't we extend the talks with the EU, to see how the covid situation plays out, and what exactly our economic prospects will be post-covid. I'd rather we spent an extra year debating with the EU, if this allows us to properly assess the fall out from the pandemic, and the possible economic damage a no-deal could inflict on the UK, for some reason this government wants to rush slapdash into an exit from the EU without serious consideration by parliament, now why would that be, if leaving with a no deal, or a much looser relationship with the EU is so beneficial to the UK, then make the case publicly, and win people over with facts and figures.

[Devils_Advocate]

Its potentially a bad thing because if Biden wins he is much likely to focus on the EU trade relations whereas Trump (with his Russia connections) would prefer to destabilise the EU. With the Torys already up to their necks in Russian Rubles and part of the cabal then Trump is the Brexit hope for a good US trade deal

[NewClaret]

Is that a bad thing, by next spring Trump could be out, and we might have a chance of talking to a rational POTUS, what this does show is that trade talks can be deferred when the will is there, so why can't we extend the talks with the EU, to see how the covid situation plays out, and what exactly our economic prospects will be post-covid. I'd rather we spent an extra year debating with the EU, if this allows us to properly assess the fall out from the pandemic, and the possible economic damage a no-deal could inflict on the UK, for some reason this government wants to rush slapdash into an exit from the EU without serious consideration by parliament, now why would that be, if leaving with a no deal, or a much looser relationship with the EU is so beneficial to the UK, then make the case publicly, and win people over with facts and figures.

Far from a disaster, it’s most likely a deliberate strategy (albeit we obviously can’t admit as such)!

Since we export very little, yet buy iPhones, Tesla’s In droves and are some of the biggest users Amazon, EBay, Insta, FB, etc etc, I say bring the WTO tariffs on.

With Europe, I’d prefer a deal but not at the expense of a full Brexit. I can’t see much point delaying another year. If we can’t unravel these knotty issues in the four years or whatever it is since the referendum, what difference is another year going to make?

[NewClaret]

Its potentially a bad thing because if Biden wins he is much likely to focus on the EU trade relations whereas Trump (with his Russia connections) would prefer to destabilise the EU. With the Torys already up to their necks in Russian Rubles and part of the cabal then Trump is the Brexit hope for a good US trade deal

All fair points. Maybe take back my deliberate strategy statement above on.

[dsr]

Far from a disaster, it’s most likely a deliberate strategy (albeit we obviously can’t admit as such)!

Since we export very little, yet buy iPhones, Tesla’s In droves and are some of the biggest users Amazon, EBay, Insta, FB, etc etc, I say bring the WTO tariffs on.

With Europe, I’d prefer a deal but not at the expense of a full Brexit. I can’t see much point delaying another year. If we can’t unravel these knotty issues in the four years or whatever it is since the referendum, what difference is another year going to make?

The WTO tariffs are already on. The EU doesn't have a trade deal with the USA either.

As for "exporting very little", I suspect you haven't looked at the figures recently. Exports to USA = £112 billion, imports from the USA = £70 billion. Admittedly the excess is basically services (no tariffs) and the physical goods balance of trade is close to even.

[NewClaret]

The WTO tariffs are already on. The EU doesn't have a trade deal with the USA either.

As for "exporting very little", I suspect you haven't looked at the figures recently. Exports to USA = £112 billion, imports from the USA = £70 billion. Admittedly the excess is basically services (no tariffs) and the physical goods balance of trade is close to even.

Wow, okay, what physical goods do we sell?

I’d have imagined we’d import £70bn of iPhones alone! That seems low to me?

[RingoMcCartney]

Remoaners 2015 - July 2020

"The UK economy is uniquely , heavily reliant on services,
Brexit/ a no deal Brexit would be disastrous"

Remoaners August 2020-

"There's nothing unique about the UK economy that could possibly justify such a drop in GDP"

[dsr]

Wow, okay, what physical goods do we sell?

I’d have imagined we’d import £70bn of iPhones alone! That seems low to me?

The top import categories (2-digit HS) in 2018 were: vehicles ($11 billion), machinery ($9.3 billion), special other (returns) ($5.3 billion), pharmaceuticals ($5.0 billion), and mineral fuels ($4.3 billion).

U.S. total imports of agricultural products from United Kingdom totaled $824 million in 2018. Leading categories include: snack foods ($119 million), cheese ($60 million), wine and beer ($53 million), red meats, fr/ch/fr ($51 million), and live animals ($47 million).

[TheFamilyCat]

Cheers for that Sid, saves me saying it.

Just a quick point. Serco , last year, were awarded a 4 BILLION POUND for a 10 YEAR CONTRACT using tax payers money from the Tory government. This is for housing illegal immigrants. Some of whom are dispersed on air conditioned coaches to places like the 4 star hotel at Bromsgrove, fully booked up for at least 12 months. Mike Graham on Talkradio has being doing great journalism on this and has uncovered a multi billion pound industry built on the illegal trafficking of people by exploitative and ruthless criminal gangs. They are charging illegal immigrants upto 5000 quid a pop. On this side of the channel, Serco , run by brother of remainer Tory grandee, nicholas soames, Rupert Soames are literally making billions off the back of it. His research has shed a light on "City of Sanctuary" status, that towns are adopting. It effectively means that Serco contacts local councils who are given financial rewards for housing new arrivals AHEAD of locals in the housing queue. Several local councillors rang in to his Talkradio show to confirm this to be fact.

A ten year contract? Mmmm, doesn't sound like the tories are planning stopping this racket any time soon.

Even by your standards that's a terrible bit of whataboutery.

Tory corruption is tory corruption regardless of their views on Brexit.

That's who you voted for. That's who you abandoned the party you were a paid up member of to vote for.

You helped to make this happen.

[aggi]

Wow, okay, what physical goods do we sell?

I’d have imagined we’d import £70bn of iPhones alone! That seems low to me?

I'd assume that Apple stuff would be classed as EU coming from apple's Irish base. They might have to pay some tax otherwise.

[RingoMcCartney]

Even by your standards that's a terrible bit of whataboutery.

Tory corruption is tory corruption regardless of their views on Brexit.

That's who you voted for. That's who you abandoned the party you were a paid up member of to vote for.

You helped to make this happen.

PFI contracts are a legacy of the Bliar / Brown Labour government. The Tories giving 10 year contracts using billions of pounds of tax payers money to house illegal immigrants in 4 star hotels, means they'll lose my vote as you, quite rightly , say I lent them. They'll lose millions more. However, these lost Tory votes will not be Labour's gain.

Anyway, you may see my post as "whataboutery". But when it comes to gold plated shooting yourself in the foot, you're in a league of your own.

Fri May 29, 2020 8:01 am

Probably worth reminding ourselves at this point that you were the only person saying that the Sunderland plant would close if we left the EU.

Jun 05, 2020 6:06 pm

There were reports of a threat of closure of the Nissan plant 

Comedy gold.

[RingoMcCartney]

Following on from the announcement by Nissan to make Sunderland its European HQ. More evidence that the majority of the British people were wise to reject Project Fear's lies.


"Unilever picks London as its home over Rotterdam"

Anglo-Dutch conglomerate denies U-turn after finally choosing the UK capital over Dutch city as its HQ"

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -rotterdam

[JohnMcGreal]

PFI contracts are a legacy of the Bliar / Brown Labour government. The Tories giving 10 year contracts using billions of pounds of tax payers money to house illegal immigrants in 4 star hotels, means they'll lose my vote as you, quite rightly , say I lent them. They'll lose millions more. However, these lost Tory votes will not be Labour's gain.

It's a poor do when the most right wing, nationalistic government in modern day politics just isn't right wing enough for you, isn't it Ringo?

BNP next time, is it?

[Quickenthetempo]

It's a poor do when the most right wing, nationalistic government in modern day politics just isn't right wing enough for you, isn't it Ringo?

BNP next time, is it?

As a novice in politics, I'm intrigued to what makes this Tory Government the most Right Wing in modern times?

They seem the most left wing with throwing all this money about?

[dsr]

As a novice in politics, I'm intrigued to what makes this Tory Government the most Right Wing in modern times?

They seem the most left wing with throwing all this money about?

I think it's because Boris Johnson went to a posh school and supports Brexit. Especially the Brexit bit - if you want to leave a long standing union to create a socialist paradise, that's normal middle-of-the-road behaviour. But if you want to leave without creating a socialist paradise, that's very very right wing and domestic policy becomes insignificant.

[JohnMcGreal]

As a novice in politics, I'm intrigued to what makes this Tory Government the most Right Wing in modern times?

They seem the most left wing with throwing all this money about?

They've been forced to borrow and create a lot of money due to the pandemic. They had no choice. That doesn't mean they're a left wing government.

We'll have to wait and see who they decide to hit in order to repay a lot of this. My prediction is that the wealthiest people and companies will be given an embarrassingly easy time, and people who have already been hit hard over the last decade will be clobbered again. The youngest generation are having their futures stamped on before their eyes. The country won't be levelled up. It will be levelled.

Aside from that, I'd say they're the most right wing, nationalistic government I have ever seen in this country for a few reasons. Brexit is the biggest one, and all the horrendous decisions and policy ideas are driven by this (things like lying to the Monarch and unlawfully proroguing Parliament). Whichever way people try to dress it up, Brexit is an English nationalist project at its heart, driven by xenophobia and a dislike of foreigners. It didn't need to be that way. We could have left the EU whilst seeking to maintain a close relationship. In fact a lot of leave voters wanted that. But all bridges had to be burned, no matter the cost. The extremists made sure of that.

What we're seeing now with Priti Patel's attack on asylum seekers in dinghies was driven by Nigel Farage and the far right. This small, almost non-story was driven into the mainstream by Farage. This government, always on the lookout for the next tasty thing to distract their core voters with, occupies the space where the loons of UKIP used to sit. They're not Conservatives. They're not even Unionists anymore. They're English nationalists.

Am awful lot of the decent and pragmatic Conservative MPs exited the party, because they couldn't support the soul-crushingly stupid policy of Brexit. There was a flight of talent from that party.

The cabinet is now made up of some of the most talentless people to ever serve in government, simply because they are nationalists who support Brexit.

It has become a dangerous cult, to the point where we have a completely dysfunctional government, which is really hurting a lot of people in the real world. Their mishandling of the pandemic in the early stages, leading to thousands of unnecessary deaths, and the clusterfck around A level grades has been an absolute disgrace.

These ought to be resigning matters.

But they carry on. Ready to inflict even more pain and suffering on the public in the name of a holy and sacred no-deal Brexit in January. At a time when a lot of people will already be on their knees.

The fact that people like Ringo feel they can no longer support them because they're being 'too soft' on foreigners, just shows how far some people have gone, and how much further to the right this party will have to move in order to keep people like that on side. It's a terryfing thought.

[TheFamilyCat]

They've been forced to borrow and create a lot of money due to the pandemic. They had no choice. That doesn't mean they're a left wing government.

We'll have to wait and see who they decide to hit in order to repay a lot of this. My prediction is that the wealthiest people and companies will be given an embarrassingly easy time, and people who have already been hit hard over the last decade will be clobbered again. The youngest generation are having their futures stamped on before their eyes. The country won't be levelled up. It will be levelled.

Aside from that, I'd say they're the most right wing, nationalistic government I have ever seen in this country for a few reasons. Brexit is the biggest one, and all the horrendous decisions and policy ideas are driven by this (things like lying to the Monarch and unlawfully proroguing Parliament). Whichever way people try to dress it up, Brexit is an English nationalist project at its heart, driven by xenophobia and a dislike of foreigners. It didn't need to be that way. We could have left the EU whilst seeking to maintain a close relationship. In fact a lot of leave voters wanted that. But all bridges had to be burned, no matter the cost. The extremists made sure of that.

What we're seeing now with Priti Patel's attack on asylum seekers in dinghies was driven by Nigel Farage and the far right. This small, almost non-story was driven into the mainstream by Farage. This government, always on the lookout for the next tasty thing to distract their core voters with, occupies the space where the loons of UKIP used to sit. They're not Conservatives. They're not even Unionists anymore. They're English nationalists.

Am awful lot of the decent and pragmatic Conservative MPs exited the party, because they couldn't support the soul-crushingly stupid policy of Brexit. There was a flight of talent from that party.

The cabinet is now made up of some of the most talentless people to ever serve in government, simply because they are nationalists who support Brexit.

It has become a dangerous cult, to the point where we have a completely dysfunctional government, which is really hurting a lot of people in the real world. Their mishandling of the pandemic in the early stages, leading to thousands of unnecessary deaths, and the clusterfck around A level grades has been an absolute disgrace.

These ought to be resigning matters.

But they carry on. Ready to inflict even more pain and suffering on the public in the name of a holy and sacred no-deal Brexit in January. At a time when a lot of people will already be on their knees.

The fact that people like Ringo feel they can no longer support them because they're being 'too soft' on foreigners, just shows how far some people have gone, and how much further to the right this party will have to move in order to keep people like that on side. It's a terryfing thought.

All good points bar one: Ringo never really supported them, he's a Brexit Party member who voted conservative just so he could come onto a football messageboard and tell everyone that he had won.

[Quickenthetempo]

They've been forced to borrow and create a lot of money due to the pandemic. They had no choice. That doesn't mean they're a left wing government.

We'll have to wait and see who they decide to hit in order to repay a lot of this. My prediction is that the wealthiest people and companies will be given an embarrassingly easy time, and people who have already been hit hard over the last decade will be clobbered again. The youngest generation are having their futures stamped on before their eyes. The country won't be levelled up. It will be levelled.

Aside from that, I'd say they're the most right wing, nationalistic government I have ever seen in this country for a few reasons. Brexit is the biggest one, and all the horrendous decisions and policy ideas are driven by this (things like lying to the Monarch and unlawfully proroguing Parliament). Whichever way people try to dress it up, Brexit is an English nationalist project at its heart, driven by xenophobia and a dislike of foreigners. It didn't need to be that way. We could have left the EU whilst seeking to maintain a close relationship. In fact a lot of leave voters wanted that. But all bridges had to be burned, no matter the cost. The extremists made sure of that.

What we're seeing now with Priti Patel's attack on asylum seekers in dinghies was driven by Nigel Farage and the far right. This small, almost non-story was driven into the mainstream by Farage. This government, always on the lookout for the next tasty thing to distract their core voters with, occupies the space where the loons of UKIP used to sit. They're not Conservatives. They're not even Unionists anymore. They're English nationalists.

Am awful lot of the decent and pragmatic Conservative MPs exited the party, because they couldn't support the soul-crushingly stupid policy of Brexit. There was a flight of talent from that party.

The cabinet is now made up of some of the most talentless people to ever serve in government, simply because they are nationalists who support Brexit.

It has become a dangerous cult, to the point where we have a completely dysfunctional government, which is really hurting a lot of people in the real world. Their mishandling of the pandemic in the early stages, leading to thousands of unnecessary deaths, and the clusterfck around A level grades has been an absolute disgrace.

These ought to be resigning matters.

But they carry on. Ready to inflict even more pain and suffering on the public in the name of a holy and sacred no-deal Brexit in January. At a time when a lot of people will already be on their knees.

The fact that people like Ringo feel they can no longer support them because they're being 'too soft' on foreigners, just shows how far some people have gone, and how much further to the right this party will have to move in order to keep people like that on side. It's a terryfing thought.

So just your opinion more than anything?
Which is fine, everyone has one.

Why didn't the Labour government throw around the same money to recover from the banking crisis do you think? It was the very left wing Gordon Brown by then wasn't it?

[clarethomer]

They've been forced to borrow and create a lot of money due to the pandemic. They had no choice. That doesn't mean they're a left wing government.

We'll have to wait and see who they decide to hit in order to repay a lot of this. My prediction is that the wealthiest people and companies will be given an embarrassingly easy time, and people who have already been hit hard over the last decade will be clobbered again. The youngest generation are having their futures stamped on before their eyes. The country won't be levelled up. It will be levelled.

Aside from that, I'd say they're the most right wing, nationalistic government I have ever seen in this country for a few reasons. Brexit is the biggest one, and all the horrendous decisions and policy ideas are driven by this (things like lying to the Monarch and unlawfully proroguing Parliament). Whichever way people try to dress it up, Brexit is an English nationalist project at its heart, driven by xenophobia and a dislike of foreigners. It didn't need to be that way. We could have left the EU whilst seeking to maintain a close relationship. In fact a lot of leave voters wanted that. But all bridges had to be burned, no matter the cost. The extremists made sure of that.

What we're seeing now with Priti Patel's attack on asylum seekers in dinghies was driven by Nigel Farage and the far right. This small, almost non-story was driven into the mainstream by Farage. This government, always on the lookout for the next tasty thing to distract their core voters with, occupies the space where the loons of UKIP used to sit. They're not Conservatives. They're not even Unionists anymore. They're English nationalists.

Am awful lot of the decent and pragmatic Conservative MPs exited the party, because they couldn't support the soul-crushingly stupid policy of Brexit. There was a flight of talent from that party.

The cabinet is now made up of some of the most talentless people to ever serve in government, simply because they are nationalists who support Brexit.

It has become a dangerous cult, to the point where we have a completely dysfunctional government, which is really hurting a lot of people in the real world. Their mishandling of the pandemic in the early stages, leading to thousands of unnecessary deaths, and the clusterfck around A level grades has been an absolute disgrace.

These ought to be resigning matters.

But they carry on. Ready to inflict even more pain and suffering on the public in the name of a holy and sacred no-deal Brexit in January. At a time when a lot of people will already be on their knees.

The fact that people like Ringo feel they can no longer support them because they're being 'too soft' on foreigners, just shows how far some people have gone, and how much further to the right this party will have to move in order to keep people like that on side. It's a terryfing thought.

Brexit hasn’t been about sticking it to foreigners at all, nor has it been about burning bridges with the EU at all costs. It has been about sovereignty for sure.

Brexit has been about taking back control of our laws, our borders and being able to make decisions on how we operate as a country without influence from elsewhere. Choosing who we can trade with and attracting economic migrants that will contribute to society.

We are still encouraging migrants into the country to work. We are and will still be welcoming to a diverse population and set of cultures.

There still seems to be the inability to understand and accept that we are largely where we are down to remainers who have consistently been doing anything and everything to stop the democratic vote for many years now.

Imposing red lines from Labour that could never be met in reality was all about grandstanding and playing political games to pander to the unions and momentum. This was equally an issue of the conservative part trying to meet the euro sceptics and pro European elements of their party.

It’s frankly been a mess but we are where we are because the way politicians acted as a whole.

It forced an election based on politics coming to a deadlock and after 3 years of effort, we were no further forward. Therefore we ended up with a clear mandate for this government’s to deliver brexit no matter what.

The first referendum vote drove arguments around telling other people that they didn’t know what they voted for. There was 3 years for people who felt that to articulate this more clearly. That election was an opportunity for people to say if they had changed their minds. The government could no longer govern.

It was a risk given the fact that had the country felt brexit wasn’t worth persevering with, it could have been stopped by the will of the people.

We all know what happened- the country voted again for it. There is now a resounding majority elected on this mandate.

I appreciate and accept that people won’t like where we are but we are now leaving at the end of the year and despite all the ‘crying’ about it being wrong - please accept that your thoughts are largely irrelevant now in this, as are mine as the government deliver brexit.

You could say we have burned bridges with the EU but this has been equally down to the EU because they have failed to grasp that we don’t want brexit in name only.

As much as you say the government are racist/against humanity and are full of extremists - that is simply a narrative that the left are painting which has no truth.

They are changing some laws to prevent people risking their lives as France use these people as political pawns and allow them to make the journey. Whether you agree with that view is not really important to me but as far as I am aware, we won’t be sending these desperate people back into the mouths of lions but simply back into the EU where they should have sought assistance in the first place.

With respect to the talent of this government- there are many people that are grateful for their support in keeping people in jobs over the last few months.

Their handling of COVID-19 was never going to look right in hindsight. Political driven assessment which will point at what other countries did are easy to do. Follow Sweden - they would have been called out for putting the economy ahead of lives. Lockdown earlier and follow Spain and Italy in their restrictions
and we would have had outcry of being too hard to soon.

Look at the world- difference in approach and the results are still the same. Countries in recession and/or loss of life has still occurred.

Talk about the inadequacy of government all you like but I think if you take away any political bias - no government would have got this right fully. Any government would be open to criticism when dealing with a pandemic which we still don’t fully understand.

I don’t really get why we have posts like this because it’s just like a bad version of Punch and Judy. Oh yes you did... oh no I didn’t.

The sad thing is that after 4 years of remainers telling everyone that leavers didn’t know what they were voting for.. the penny still hasn’t dropped. We did know what we voted for.

We knew in 2016, we knew at the last election.

We don’t want to be a socialist country, we don’t want to be part of the EU and we want sovereignty. You can argue all you like about what we had as part of the EU but the country spoke.

Nobody expects remainers to agree with it but at least please stop moaning and crying injustice about something you can’t change

[Greenmile]

...There still seems to be the inability to understand and accept that we are largely where we are down to remainers who have consistently been doing anything and everything to stop the democratic vote for many years now....

...Nobody expects remainers to agree with it but at least please stop moaning and crying injustice about something you can’t change.

Schroedingers remainders - entirely responsible for the situation we’re in re Brexit, due to them moaning about “something they can’t change”.

How about you brexiters take some responsibility for the way you voted, for once? We are where we are because of your votes. Not the EU, not the French, not remainers, not immigrants. Just you.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Schroedingers remainders - entirely responsible for the situation we’re in re Brexit, due to them moaning about “something they can’t change”.

How about you brexiters take some responsibility for the way you voted, for once? We are where we are because of your votes. Not the EU, not the French, not remainers, not immigrants. Just you.

Brexiteers do take responsibility for their voting, but we can also look outside of the vote and see the world around us.

Remainers keep telling us to get over it cos we won, but bizarrely the same doesn't apply to the loser who seemingly can't accept the result.

[Spijed]

Brexit hasn’t been about sticking it to foreigners at all, nor has it been about burning bridges with the EU at all costs. It has been about sovereignty for sure.

Brexit has been about taking back control of our laws, our borders and being able to make decisions on how we operate as a country without influence from elsewhere. Choosing who we can trade with and attracting economic migrants that will contribute to society.
and we would have had outcry of being too hard to soon.

This myth about taking control of our own laws.

What exactly does that mean considering we've passed many new laws in the UK parliament that are independent of the EU?

Also, you say the government shouldn't be blamed for the global pandemic yet Labour were firmly blamed for the world financial crisis in 2009 which had absolutely nothing to do with Gordon Brown.

Can't have it both ways.

[Greenmile]

Brexiteers do take responsibility for their voting, but we can also look outside of the vote and see the world around us.

Remainers keep telling us to get over it cos we won, but bizarrely the same doesn't apply to the loser who seemingly can't accept the result.

I wonder where the phrase “get over it. You won” came from. It sounds like a subversion of a more common phrase to me, but I just can’t put my finger on it right now,

[GodIsADeeJay81]

This myth about taking control of our own laws.

What exactly does that mean considering we've passed many new laws in the UK parliament that are independent of the EU?

Also, you say the government shouldn't be blamed for the global pandemic yet Labour were firmly blamed for the world financial crisis in 2009 which had absolutely nothing to do with Gordon Brown.

Can't have it both ways.

Pandemic is different to a financial crash.

Oh and Brown has admitted he got things wrong and didn't fully understand how entangled stuff was in the run up to that financial crash.

BBC News - Gordon Brown admits 'big mistake' over banking crisis
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13032013

[clarethomer]

Schroedingers remainders - entirely responsible for the situation we’re in re Brexit, due to them moaning about “something they can’t change”.

How about you brexiters take some responsibility for the way you voted, for once? We are where we are because of your votes. Not the EU, not the French, not remainers, not immigrants. Just you.

I haven't said remainers were entirely responsible. Read my post again where I see that the split in the tories also made things more difficult.

I take my responsibility of my vote very seriously. I take democracy seriously - do you?

[clarethomer]

This myth about taking control of our own laws.

What exactly does that mean considering we've passed many new laws in the UK parliament that are independent of the EU?

Also, you say the government shouldn't be blamed for the global pandemic yet Labour were firmly blamed for the world financial crisis in 2009 which had absolutely nothing to do with Gordon Brown.

Can't have it both ways.

It means that come 1/1/2021 that we are free to retain/make new/change our laws without worrying about the EU in the same way. It means we don't have to worry about the ECJ coming in and overruling our courts. It's not saying we don't like the EU rules so let's scrap them all.

Where have I said our government was responsible for the pandemic? It wasn't me. What I have said is that people can blame the government for it but any government would be in the same position as this one. You are right with the financial crisis and I don't blame Labour for causing the crash either.

The parallel here is that governments need to be seen to do something and the complexity of these situations will ALWAYS mean a government can't get it right all of the time. The problem I was trying to highlight around the pandemic is that with hindsight , there will be critics of what was done and how it was done. If you take a step back and look at how this pandemic has hit the world, broadly speaking, there appears to have been different approaches taken and in the vast majority of cases we have the same situation regardless of this approach. People have died and economically, countries have suffered.

My point was that if you get a critic of what we have done about lock down - you can point to examples where they did this differently to us but they are still in a bad place. It's wrong to call a government incompetent just because you don't like them where there is clear evidence that if they were right in this view, the world is run by incompetent people full stop and anyone who is capable of getting into that position is likely to be incompetent and unfit for this role too.

[Greenmile]

I haven't said remainers were entirely responsible...

You’re right - you just said they were largely responsible (for the thing they voted against). My mistake.

[Greenmile]

It means that come 1/1/2021 that we are free to retain/make new/change our laws without worrying about the EU in the same way.

Which particular laws are you looking forward to our govt changing or making, that we couldn’t do as part of the EU?

Please be specific when you answer.

[taio]

Which particular laws are you looking forward to our govt changing or making, that we couldn’t do as part of the EU?

Please be specific when you answer.

It will be interesting to see how procurement and state aid law changes outside the EU.

[clarethomer]

Which particular laws are you looking forward to our govt changing or making, that we couldn’t do as part of the EU?

Please be specific when you answer.

You have answered the question for me in that I believe that as a country we will be able to make decisions more quickly where it needs to go through a 'higher power' to ensure that they are OK with it.

I am pleased to see the new laws coming in about how we will attract labour/workers into the country. I am pleased that we are going to be able to have more powers to return migrants to the EU if they have arrived there first where they will get looked after by the EU countries.

I am also please to see that we can change the law where EEA migrants will no longer be able to claim for things like child benefit when they don't have their children living in the uk. The country where the child lives should pay for the support of that person as all EEA countries are developed countries.

I am also keen on things like to make decisions on what VAT we can charge. I recall there being a rule where VAT on energy had to be 15% and could not be lower. I am not saying it should be lower but I use it as an example of how we couldn't change it if we wanted to Another example of where the EU has stopped us helping people in poverty - Tampon Tax.

The ability to be more agile and not be required to get wrapped up in negotiating trade deals where you have to satisfy 27 countries to get one agreed. We can look to get what will work best for us and maybe give other countries what they want which they wouldn't be able to get in the EU.

Please do not take any of the above as me saying this is simple/straightforward or will be without consequences. Everything has cause and effect and this is no different.

There may be some rules we want to continue to subscribe to and follow or make more stringent than the EU. As I have said already - this is an infinite process and you cannot debate this on a win-lose basis.

[aggi]

Which particular laws are you looking forward to our govt changing or making, that we couldn’t do as part of the EU?

Please be specific when you answer.

Given the absence of answers the last dozen times I've asked people on here that I wouldn't hold your breath.

(Actually I once got an answer that someone wanted to set up CCTV without having to comply with data protection laws, whether that is a good is bad thing is down to individuals to judge I guess.)

Edit: someone has finally given some examples. Thank you. The VAT one is obvious, the EU isn't keen on zero rating stuff and that's a good example of where we have some restrictions (although our vat is higher than the minimum).

The stuff on immigration/benefits does probably need some reform but the economic impact is miniscule which is probably why no one has bothered. The same as the UK not enforcing a lot of the rights on immigration they already have.

[taio]

Given the absence of answers the last dozen times I've asked people on here that I wouldn't hold your breath.

(Actually I once got an answer that someone wanted to set up CCTV without having to comply with data protection laws, whether that is a good is bad thing is down to individuals to judge I guess.)

I would've thought the most obvious example is new legislation on immigration favoured by those who voted to leave the EU.

[AndrewJB]

This myth about taking control of our own laws.

What exactly does that mean considering we've passed many new laws in the UK parliament that are independent of the EU?

Also, you say the government shouldn't be blamed for the global pandemic yet Labour were firmly blamed for the world financial crisis in 2009 which had absolutely nothing to do with Gordon Brown.

Can't have it both ways.

They still insist that we weren’t sufficiently sovereign while in the EU, despite the U.K. government choosing to take independent military action (surely the ultimate act of a sovereign state) during this time. What they fail to understand is we pooled our sovereignty with other EU nations to have a smoothly running internal market, and to gain advantage in trade negotiations with other countries and trading blocs. When we strike new trade deals we will have to make compromises - which will include giving up sovereignty, because no country will accept our Supreme Court as the final arbitration board in any future disputes. We are walking away from a situation in which the ECJ (which we were part of) will be replaced by other bodies equally as alien, but instead of trading with close neighbours with whom we have cultural, legal, and social similarities (and one that insists on member states being democracies, with rights and freedoms) well be dealing with countries that don’t have those traditions.

[Rowls]

Can’t we just close the tunnel? Brexit isn’t Brexit with a tunnel.

Funny but if the Remain side had realised that (mis)representing the Leave side in this small-minded manner was counter-productive they might have won.

[AndrewJB]

I haven't said remainers were entirely responsible. Read my post again where I see that the split in the tories also made things more difficult.

I take my responsibility of my vote very seriously. I take democracy seriously - do you?

The Tories has a majority after 2015, and a working majority after 2017, and all their MPs were committed to us leaving the EU. It’s an unbelievable repetition of right wing propaganda to blame “remainers” for the shambles that took place. There was no consensus in the Tory Party about what Leave meant (nor in the rest of the country). The government should have clarified this first, but they refused even to work with opposition parties, and Johnson played his role too in the infighting. They could have set up a six month study, taking depositions from people, and put forward several models; but the government didn’t do this. The shambles is down to them alone, and continues to be now.

[Greenmile]

... I am pleased that we are going to be able to have more powers to return migrants to the EU if they have arrived there first where they will get looked after by the EU countries...

I don't think this is going to be the case.

The rest of your answer seemed fair though (even if I don't agree with a lot of it).

[Spijed]

Where have I said our government was responsible for the pandemic? It wasn't me. What I have said is that people can blame the government for it but any government would be in the same position as this one. You are right with the financial crisis and I don't blame Labour for causing the crash either.

This is where the Conservatives are massive hypocrites though.

Would you blame the Scottish government for their handling of the examination marks in Scotland?

James Cleverly did before he deleted his tweet:
https://twitter.com/deletedbyMPs/status ... 7757438978

[CombatClaret]

Public Health England to be scrapped. The fall guy for this shambles of a pandemic response.

Ok PHE have not showered themselves in glory but to scrap it half way through a pandemic?!
To be "replaced with a unit that will specifically deal with pandemics". What about the 20+ other very important things PHE does from Poison and Radioactive Hazards, Cancer Treatment Networks or Substance Abuse programs?

Then to put Dido Harding in charge, a woman with no public health or medical background, currently presiding over the utter failure of the UK track & trace program.
Also just happens to be married to a Tory MP who has called for PHE to be scrapped and the NHS to be replaced with US style private insurance system...

[clarethomer]

They still insist that we weren’t sufficiently sovereign while in the EU, despite the U.K. government choosing to take independent military action (surely the ultimate act of a sovereign state) during this time. What they fail to understand is we pooled our sovereignty with other EU nations to have a smoothly running internal market, and to gain advantage in trade negotiations with other countries and trading blocs. When we strike new trade deals we will have to make compromises - which will include giving up sovereignty, because no country will accept our Supreme Court as the final arbitration board in any future disputes. We are walking away from a situation in which the ECJ (which we were part of) will be replaced by other bodies equally as alien, but instead of trading with close neighbours with whom we have cultural, legal, and social similarities (and one that insists on member states being democracies, with rights and freedoms) well be dealing with countries that don’t have those traditions.

I agree that we still have a degree of sovereignty still and the bits we don't have were down to making the EU operate more like a federal state of countries.

When you look at what the benefits of trading are with the EU, whilst we cannot trade as freely now, we can still trade.

When it comes to trading with other nations as part of the EU - I am not ignoring the benefits of having the power of the bloc but you have to accept that there are drawbacks too (although I doubt you will).

One of those drawbacks is that because you have to deal with 27 countries needs and demands, it is going to take more time and you are equally going to still have to deal with compromise. Look at the following - Trade deals taking years and years. Which we take as normal because of the way we have always done it. It doesn't need to be that way though.

Screenshot 2020-08-16 at 15.31.29.png (376.95 KiB) Viewed 1945 times

The benefit that I see with us being independent in our ability to trade is that we don't need to worry about the needs of anybody outside the UK. We won't experience the delays. Take the Canada trade deal that was at risk of collapse because a region in Belgium of 3.6m people were not happy. When you are trading for 446m people of the EU, this nearly killed the deal after years of investment and time. How can less than 1% of people have so much control over the other 99%?

As a result of these delays, there has been a 'missed opportunity' cost in trade for this delay. As you have pointed out before, you could argue having a bigger market may be an incentive for them to give up more but taking the Canada/Belgium trade deal - the hold up wasn't a concern to us. We were waiting for something that wasn't deemed important to stop the deal proceeding in the eyes of the UK and 99% of the EU.

What I think is most important is that we get trade deals that mutually work and if we want to hold up deals because its not in our interest, we can do so. We can also proceed with more agility where we find that mutual consensus.

So in reality - when assessing a trade deal. It's to simplistic to say bigger is better. It's not always the case.

in terms of the ECJ- there is no issue with having an 'independent' body to deal with trade disputes but the problem with the ECJ is that it's hard to see how they will remain independent with any trade disputes when they are funded by one of the parties involved in the dispute.

[clarethomer]

This is where the Conservatives are massive hypocrites though.

Would you blame the Scottish government for their handling of the examination marks in Scotland?

James Cleverly did before he deleted his tweet:
https://twitter.com/deletedbyMPs/status ... 7757438978

I can't speak for what others think.

What I would say that I really feel sorry for those impacted by all of the qualifications processes - both Scotland and the UK. There was a girl/young lady on the radio last night who was (apologies if i haven't got the order right)

- Predicted A* A A in her subjects.
- Mocks she got A* A A
- Teachers predicted ahead of her exams she was actually on track for A* A* A*

She had gone to a comprehensive school and had been accepted - subject to grades - to get into Cambridge.

She was a highly articulate girl/young lady and had a bright future ahead. Due to the algorithm applied, she was given A B B as her grades. The only explanation that anyone could give was that because no one in that school had ever got those grades, she would be judged on that.

That is ridiculous.

What made it worse was I think OFQUAL put out something that said Mocks would be applied/or could be used. This was then withdrawn as the board of OFQUAL hadn't approved this.

For me, the whole situation is a mess. Im not sure what the answer is. I can see what both governments have tried to do but have executed it in a way which has not been fair and seemed to have favoured those who attend better schools.

A teacher from Oxford came on to the show and was explaining that teachers keep records of their predicted grades and usually from his experience the predicted grades are usually within 2% of what they get - with the 2% being that they did better - i.e. under predicted (if that's a phrase).

What will normally happen when exams are done, is that they start off with the assumption that the intelligence/ability of students will not have risen massively from the previous year. Once the exams are done, they apply a moderation and adjust bandings to ensure that grades are not at odds with that starting assumption.

So when you have teachers predicting and the data shows a massive jump in grades across the board, they have tried to replicate that moderation you don't see. I didn't fully get the nuances/detail but understood that this is why things have shown the predicted grades to look too generous.

One of the points raised though is that its not as simple as giving the predicted grades either because it could put students into courses they don't have the aptitude for and will set them up for failure. Likewise, there were points about Universities being more flexible with their grades. Not sure if this would work either given this may have opened up a university to someone else who couldn't apply because they didn't get the predicted grades - but ended up with the same as someone who did.

It's a terrible situation for these youngsters to be in and a mess.

I don't look forward to GCSEs next/this week. More subjects, more students.... I already know that there is going to be further issues ahead.

[KateR]

Is there somehow a belief that only Conservative voters were the ones that voted for Brexit?

There is a lot of talk around the vote and democracy, you could hypothesize when thinking along these lines how the EU Leadership get's elected, are they democratically elected by people, are they democratically elected by the MEP's that are elected to represent the countries within the EU, or is it just a few that make the decisions for the 28 members, soon to be 27? Maybe just maybe there is a correlation between remoaners and the EU leadership, maybe, just maybe the EU needs to think about this as part of the EU laws that need changing.

These senior positions include European Commission President, President of European Parliament, President of European Council,the rotating position of President of the Council of the European Union, President of the Court of Justice, President of the General Court, President of the European Central Bank, President of the European Court of Auditors.

Now I'm not saying everyone in the EU should vote but having a candidate of one is not really that democratic, they seem to be crowned more than elected in some ways, but am sure some/many of you will enlighten me why this is not the case.

[Devils_Advocate]

Looks like the govt could have breached Article 22 of GDPR which would turn it into an even bigger mess than it already is.

I've also seen that a few Uni's have started to be more flexible around what grades they will accept or accepting peoples predicted grades rather than their downgraded ones and if this becomes common practice it could become the saving grace

[jrgbfc]

At least the Tories are consistent. It mainly appears to be working class, state school students who've been affected by the A Level results balls up. Just hope they all remember it when they come to vote in the next general election.

[KateR]

Just thought it needed a Subject change so everyone would understand what the thread was about and allow it all out

[Burnley Ace]

The only fair and impartial way to do this is by a lottery. Each university has offered places to a number of pupils, put all the names of the pupils that had that course as their first choice and draw out the number of places. Those that don’t get in are put into a draw for any spare places on their second choice. If you don’t get in then it’s clearance.

This takes away all the advantages of going to a good school with a strong history of success and small classes and the disadvantage of being the brightest student in a poorly performing school.

[aggi]

Is there somehow a belief that only Conservative voters were the ones that voted for Brexit?

There is a lot of talk around the vote and democracy, you could hypothesize when thinking along these lines how the EU Leadership get's elected, are they democratically elected by people, are they democratically elected by the MEP's that are elected to represent the countries within the EU, or is it just a few that make the decisions for the 28 members, soon to be 27? Maybe just maybe there is a correlation between remoaners and the EU leadership, maybe, just maybe the EU needs to think about this as part of the EU laws that need changing.

These senior positions include European Commission President, President of European Parliament, President of European Council,the rotating position of President of the Council of the European Union, President of the Court of Justice, President of the General Court, President of the European Central Bank, President of the European Court of Auditors.

Now I'm not saying everyone in the EU should vote but having a candidate of one is not really that democratic, they seem to be crowned more than elected in some ways, but am sure some/many of you will enlighten me why this is not the case.

People such as the president are selected by the heads of the member states.

Personally I view that as reasonably democratic, I didn't vote for Johnson but he's the democratically elected leader of the country and I don't have an issue with those kind of decisions being made with the country's elected leader as a proxy for the population.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Yet another u-turn set to be announced over the A-Level fiasco. Incompetent doesn’t come close.

[KateR]

OfQual is not a Gov. body as I understand it and reports to Parliament, it set the rules for how exams would be run this year and I don't think all the blame is to do with Tory's and you can see some evidence of how it was done and what the analysis shows in the link.

I think any Gov. whether alone or in consultation with other when challenged that is willing to accept something could be better and make a change should be applauded.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... te-schools

[ksrclaret]

Yet another u-turn set to be announced over the A-Level fiasco. Incompetent doesn’t come close.

I spent last week trying to sort Uni places out for the 40% of our A Level cohort who had their grades downgraded and who were plunged into uncertainty. We made every effort to align our results almost exactly with the last 3 years of data and in my class alone I still had a third of grades altered. The end result was still the same numerical data but with some student's grades moved up and down. We were told there was no chance of a u-turn on this.

4 days later and we have that u-turn. To be described as just incompetent should be seen as a huge compliment to this shower.

[TheFamilyCat]

OfQual is not a Gov. body as I understand it and reports to Parliament, it set the rules for how exams would be run this year and I don't think all the blame is to do with Tory's and you can see some evidence of how it was done and what the analysis shows in the link.

I think any Gov. whether alone or in consultation with other when challenged that is willing to accept something could be better and make a change should be applauded.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... te-schools

Gavin Williamson, as Education Secretary should have been all over this. I don't believe for one minute that Ofqual didn't inform the DfE of how they were going to operate and someone should have spotted the obvious flaw.