It's not just about Brexit

[Devils_Advocate]

Interesting developments and makes you wonder what damage this could do to the UKs reputation and trustworthiness as we try to make new trade deals around the globe

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1302701541674160134

[clarethomer]

It's not an absolute veto, there's a dispute resolution process but the new copyright rule is very clear, longer then what was previously in place and very much relates to specific products. To go back to what they had would involve breaching the agreement.

I don't think anyone, except the most paranoid brexiteer, believes that the UK is going to sign up to, or is expected to sign up to, a deal with an absolute veto and no dispute resolution process.

No issues on dispute resolution of one side not meeting what they have agreed to.

No issues on that dispute being overseen by an independent tribunal.

I agree, I don't expect our government to agree to this and it's now looking like Barnier will be removed from the position of negotiating later this month if reports are to be believed. Hopefully this will allow a more pragmatic approach to these discussions.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Why could Barnier be removed?
Is that because EU leaders want a deal and he isn't able to get one done?
That's a surprise considering we are repeatedly told they don't need us.

[martin_p]

No issues on dispute resolution of one side not meeting what they have agreed to.

No issues on that dispute being overseen by an independent tribunal.

I agree, I don't expect our government to agree to this and it's now looking like Barnier will be removed from the position of negotiating later this month if reports are to be believed. Hopefully this will allow a more pragmatic approach to these discussions.

The EU have already dismissed those reports. Besides, it looks like the U.K. is determined to goad the EU into walking away if tonight’s reports on legislation that effectively overwrite the withdrawal agreement on NI are to be believed. Presumably so they can say ‘well we wanted a deal but they walked away’. If we do want a deal we’re going about it in a very strange way.

[Devils_Advocate]

Why could Barnier be removed?
Is that because EU leaders want a deal and he isn't able to get one done?
That's a surprise considering we are repeatedly told they don't need us.

He wont, its just unsubstantiated nonsense by the UK brexit press to try and make out Barnier is the problem. I saw this story a couple of days ago and its been rubbished by the EU member states and some of the more balanced and respectable Brexit commentators

[clarethomer]

As I said - if reports are to be believed - I don't know if he will or wont. Just said if he was removed, it may be the route to getting some form of deal.

It was reported in the telegraph that this could be announced at the state of union speech on 16th September to try and refresh the talks with Eursa the great getting involved with political leaders or something like that from memory.

No doubt from what others are saying the better quality press that remainers are all signed up to and seem to follow have seen EU member states rubbish this.

I did a quick search on Barnier being sidelined and all I can see is a french minister rubbishing this claim and trying to inject a bit of humour into the situations with a keep calm slogan.

Maybe Google has applied a brexiteer filter onto my search results which stops me from seeing these articles where EU member states have all come out to deny that this is going to happen?

Anyway it's the end of another weekend and feels right to leave this post open for several more links to be posted to show me where these member states have rubbished this claim and to give those pesky remainers an opportunity to go to bed with a nice warm glow of smugness.

[clarethomer]

Interesting breaking news as I log off for the night..

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-boris ... r-12065508

Not sure if there is anything new in the story but good to set the tone for the next set of talks ...

[martin_p]

Interesting breaking news as I log off for the night..

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-boris ... r-12065508

Not sure if there is anything new in the story but good to set the tone for the next set of talks ...

Well it’s good he’s finally moved from his July deadline and come into line with what the EU have been saying for a while now, October.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/dailybu ... -deal/amp/

[RingoMcCartney]

Barnier-

"The fish may be in British water, but, they're not , necessarily, British fish"

[martin_p]

Barnier-

"The fish may be in British water, but, they're not , necessarily, British fish"

Clearly once free movement has ended on 1st January foreign fish won’t be allowed in our waters anyway!

Taking back control!!

[Spijed]

The EU have already dismissed those reports. Besides, it looks like the U.K. is determined to goad the EU into walking away if tonight’s reports on legislation that effectively overwrite the withdrawal agreement on NI are to be believed. Presumably so they can say ‘well we wanted a deal but they walked away’. If we do want a deal we’re going about it in a very strange way.

And sadly, if it affects the Good Friday Agreement then we are likely to see a sharp rise in fatalities, both here and in Ireland. And Johnson will have blood on his hands.

[Devils_Advocate]

Clearly once free movement has ended on 1st January foreign fish won’t be allowed in our waters anyway!

Taking back control!!

Rachael Maclean is building a school in the Dover straight where the fish can have a brew and a bacon butty whilst they queue to get in and out of our waters

[aggi]

Why could Barnier be removed?
Is that because EU leaders want a deal and he isn't able to get one done?
That's a surprise considering we are repeatedly told they don't need us.

One of the interesting things about Brexit has been watching the way the narrative shifts and how it's done.

The obvious has been the shift from how many benefits Brexit will deliver which has gradually shifted to we'll make it through leaving without it being too bad. Along with that is the drastic shift of what leaving means. All the talk of Norway type deals and so on has been replaced with cutting as many ties as we can.

There's also been other more blatant stuff like the attempt to rebrand No Deal as an Australian style deal (although I think they may have given up on that) and all the denials around the Northern Ireland sea border that at times seem to be simultaneously confirmed and denied.

The latest one seems to be this narrative that the EU or Remainers (I'm not quite sure which) said that the EU didn't need a deal with the UK. There's no real evidence of this being a widely held opinion but it's now being trotted out to show that the UK is still doing well in the trade talks.

It's fascinating how these things develop. Are they pushed by the government, a subset such as the ERG, the media, A.N.Other? The new reality seems to become the truth quite quickly but it's not really clear how.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

One of the interesting things about Brexit has been watching the way the narrative shifts and how it's done.

The obvious has been the shift from how many benefits Brexit will deliver which has gradually shifted to we'll make it through leaving without it being too bad. Along with that is the drastic shift of what leaving means. All the talk of Norway type deals and so on has been replaced with cutting as many ties as we can.

There's also been other more blatant stuff like the attempt to rebrand No Deal as an Australian style deal (although I think they may have given up on that) and all the denials around the Northern Ireland sea border that at times seem to be simultaneously confirmed and denied.

The latest one seems to be this narrative that the EU or Remainers (I'm not quite sure which) said that the EU didn't need a deal with the UK. There's no real evidence of this being a widely held opinion but it's now being trotted out to show that the UK is still doing well in the trade talks.

It's fascinating how these things develop. Are they pushed by the government, a subset such as the ERG, the media, A.N.Other? The new reality seems to become the truth quite quickly but it's not really clear how.

Still trying to converse with me?

We've been watching Remainers change the narrative for years too, almost like they're being pushed by politicians, popular twitter accounts and media outlets that think the same way they do.

Both sides can and will change the narrative, it isn't unique to one side despite what anyone may say.

[martin_p]

Still trying to converse with me?

We've been watching Remainers change the narrative for years too, almost like they're being pushed by politicians, popular twitter accounts and media outlets that think the same way they do.

Both sides can and will change the narrative, it isn't unique to one side despite what anyone may say.

Go on then, how has the Remain narrative changed? Remain have been saying from day one we wouldn’t get a deal as good as being in the EU and there was nothing in it for the EU to offer us a great deal.

[aggi]

Still trying to converse with me?

We've been watching Remainers change the narrative for years too, almost like they're being pushed by politicians, popular twitter accounts and media outlets that think the same way they do.

Both sides can and will change the narrative, it isn't unique to one side despite what anyone may say.

Your post was a good illustration of the point so I quoted it.

It's obviously been happening gradually for many years but with Brexit and, in my opinion, elements of the leave movement in particular it has picked up pace and become much more pervasive.

[RingoMcCartney]

Clearly once free movement has ended on 1st January foreign fish won’t be allowed in our waters anyway!

Taking back control!!

"Foreign fish"!?

Racist , xenophobic little Englander!

[martin_p]

"Foreign fish"!?

Racist , xenophobic little Englander!

You really struggle with the concept of racism don’t you? It does explain a number of your ‘opinions’.

[RingoMcCartney]

You really struggle with the concept of racism don’t you? It does explain a number of your ‘opinions’.

You really struggle with the concept of humour don’t you? It does explain a number of your ‘opinions’.

[martin_p]

You really struggle with the concept of humour don’t you? It does explain a number of your ‘opinions’.

Well yes, I certainly struggle in linking your post and humour yes. You’ll have to explain the ‘joke’ to me.

[RingoMcCartney]

Well yes, I certainly struggle in linking your post and humour yes. You’ll have to explain the ‘joke’ to me.

Wrong. I dont.

Please dont be hanging around the messageboard saying that I do. Needy isn't a good look.

Toodle pip.

[martin_p]

Wrong. I dont.

Please dont be hanging around the messageboard saying that I do. Needy isn't a good look.

Toodle pip.

Well if you can’t that’s fair enough. Thought you couldn’t.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Go on then, how has the Remain narrative changed? Remain have been saying from day one we wouldn’t get a deal as good as being in the EU and there was nothing in it for the EU to offer us a great deal.

Remain changes its angles of attack regularly, it's easy to spot, even on here.
Leave does the same and it's also easy to spot.

We've had leavers being called stupid and uneducated because they don't have degrees.
Leavers don't understand what the EU is about and how it works, but let's be honest remainers are just as clueless in that respect but they won't admit that.

Leavers have also been called racist as a generalisation.

Gina Millers court case.

May was targeted because she hadn't won an election so why should people listen to her.
Then we had a GE... Which made things worse because the Tories lost seats

(Same happened with Boris, but instead he went and smashed the opposition out of the park)

N.Ireland and the GFA were dragged into it.

Cummings has been the focus of numerous attacks in an effort to bring him down because its believed Brexit can be halted if he's toppled.

Civil service have staged several mini revolts in an effort to get rid of the likes of Patel with claims of bullying.

Let's not forget the big hoo ha over Cobra meetings too.

Oh and there was the focus on Boris' short comings as a dad and the big demand to know how many kids he's fathered because apparently it makes a difference to what sort of PM he is.

If you could give us a hint as to what the next angle of attack is so we can start getting it out of the way on here that would be great.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Ooo I nearly forgot the sudden demand to lower the voting age because it wasn't fair that older people who were going to die in the near future were getting a say when immature 16yr olds couldn't get a say despite them being able to join the army and kill people, or something like that.

[martin_p]

Remain changes its angles of attack regularly, it's easy to spot, even on here.
Leave does the same and it's also easy to spot.

We've had leavers being called stupid and uneducated because they don't have degrees.
Leavers don't understand what the EU is about and how it works, but let's be honest remainers are just as clueless in that respect but they won't admit that.

Leavers have also been called racist as a generalisation.

Gina Millers court case.

May was targeted because she hadn't won an election so why should people listen to her.
Then we had a GE... Which made things worse because the Tories lost seats

(Same happened with Boris, but instead he went and smashed the opposition out of the park)

N.Ireland and the GFA were dragged into it.

Cummings has been the focus of numerous attacks in an effort to bring him down because its believed Brexit can be halted if he's toppled.

Civil service have staged several mini revolts in an effort to get rid of the likes of Patel with claims of bullying.

Let's not forget the big hoo ha over Cobra meetings too.

Oh and there was the focus on Boris' short comings as a dad and the big demand to know how many kids he's fathered because apparently it makes a difference to what sort of PM he is.

If you could give us a hint as to what the next angle of attack is so we can start getting it out of the way on here that would be great.

Which of that is ‘a change of narrative’? The tactics may change but the narrative seems consistent (even if I don’t agree with the way you’ve framed it), Leave is a really bad idea and those promoting it are stupid/liars/dishonest.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Which of that is ‘a change of narrative’? The tactics may change but the narrative seems consistent (even if I don’t agree with the way you’ve framed it), Leave is a really bad idea and those promoting it are stupid/liars/dishonest.

How do you know its a really bad idea?
It's never been done and unless you've got a crystal ball that really works you don't know how it will pan out in the years to come.

[martin_p]

How do you know its a really bad idea?
It's never been done and unless you've got a crystal ball that really works you don't know how it will pan out in the years to come.

Well that’s not the point, I was saying that was the consistent Remain narrative you were representing after claiming the narrative had changed on both sides.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Well that’s not the point, I was saying that was the consistent Remain narrative you were representing after claiming the narrative had changed on both sides.

OK narrative was the wrong word used by me, I'll accept that.

Remain still keep coming up with new ideas to try and derail Brexit.
All that energy they pour into trying to stop it could be used in more constructive ways I'm sure.

[martin_p]

OK narrative was the wrong word used by me, I'll accept that.

Remain still keep coming up with new ideas to try and derail Brexit.
All that energy they pour into trying to stop it could be used in more constructive ways I'm sure.

I think anyone who did still think they could stop it realised it was over at the last election.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I think anyone who did still think they could stop it realised it was over at the last election.

Nah, they're still trying.
Hence the media attacks on Cummings, or suggestions that we should extend the end of year deadline until next year, things being leaked to the media etc.

[KateR]

Leave is a really bad idea and those promoting it are stupid/liars/dishonest.

and here I rest my case, as I lie down with my limbs waving about howling with laughter, thank you for the succinct answer. You should have put it on the side of a big bus and toured with it.

[KateR]

Ooo I nearly forgot the sudden demand to lower the voting age because it wasn't fair that older people who were going to die in the near future were getting a say when immature 16yr olds couldn't get a say despite them being able to join the army and kill people, or something like that.

you also forgot giving Europeans the vote that lived in the UK.

[AndrewJB]

Remain changes its angles of attack regularly, it's easy to spot, even on here.
Leave does the same and it's also easy to spot.

We've had leavers being called stupid and uneducated because they don't have degrees.
Leavers don't understand what the EU is about and how it works, but let's be honest remainers are just as clueless in that respect but they won't admit that.

Leavers have also been called racist as a generalisation.

Gina Millers court case.

May was targeted because she hadn't won an election so why should people listen to her.
Then we had a GE... Which made things worse because the Tories lost seats

(Same happened with Boris, but instead he went and smashed the opposition out of the park)

N.Ireland and the GFA were dragged into it.

Cummings has been the focus of numerous attacks in an effort to bring him down because its believed Brexit can be halted if he's toppled.

Civil service have staged several mini revolts in an effort to get rid of the likes of Patel with claims of bullying.

Let's not forget the big hoo ha over Cobra meetings too.

Oh and there was the focus on Boris' short comings as a dad and the big demand to know how many kids he's fathered because apparently it makes a difference to what sort of PM he is.

If you could give us a hint as to what the next angle of attack is so we can start getting it out of the way on here that would be great.

I don’t think all leavers are racist and uneducated, but most racist and uneducated people voted Leave.

The things you list aren’t attack lines as though people have sat around thinking them up. They’re reasons for wanting to remain. With the 16 year olds - in the last election every seat in England would have been Labour had the vote been restricted to 18 - 24 year olds - you now have a vocal group who resent not having a say on the matter (my eldest was 17 at the time).

Leavers won, and now fully own the project. Good luck.

[martin_p]

and here I rest my case, as I lie down with my limbs waving about howling with laughter, thank you for the succinct answer. You should have put it on the side of a big bus and toured with it.

If you’re going to ignore the context of the conversation and selectively quote then that’s up to you and there’s nothing I can do about it. If you’re going to put yourself forward as an intelligent person intent on discussing the issues then you need to act like it lest people just think you a troll.

[CrosspoolClarets]

First time I have commented on Brexit for months.

This latest move isn’t rocket science, it’s the UK, especially after Covid, being desperate to use state aid to prop up new emerging businesses in deprived areas, many of which are to become free ports, in a way that isn’t allowed while a member of the EU or under the Withdrawal Agreement (which pragmatically Johnson had to get through virtually unchanged last year).

The argument being that countries like Germany, with high productivity built up over decades, have an innate advantage that would stop us thriving unless we use state aid (which many countries also do, China being the obvious example). That would help new innovative companies to grow until their productivity becomes self sustaining.

I accept the argument from those who used to be Remainers, who may now be Rejoiners, that this could be worse than being in the EU for the UK as a whole. But I would ask for solutions for those deprived areas like East Lancashire, where being in the EU coupled with globalisation hasn’t helped. Otherwise it sounds a bit like “I’m all right Jack, and I know you aren’t, but I’m afraid top priority is to preserve may own lifestyle, not to try and improve yours”. We’ve tried it the other way - it didn’t work (GDP per capita is only 26th in the world, and in deprived areas it is below every single US state and below 100+ countries).

Now we need a total change in direction and those who did well from the EU need to be nimble and ensure they do well in the new world too.

[aggi]

First time I have commented on Brexit for months.

This latest move isn’t rocket science, it’s the UK, especially after Covid, being desperate to use state aid to prop up new emerging businesses in deprived areas, many of which are to become free ports, in a way that isn’t allowed while a member of the EU or under the Withdrawal Agreement (which pragmatically Johnson had to get through virtually unchanged last year).

The argument being that countries like Germany, with high productivity built up over decades, have an innate advantage that would stop us thriving unless we use state aid (which many countries also do, China being the obvious example). That would help new innovative companies to grow until their productivity becomes self sustaining.

I accept the argument from those who used to be Remainers, who may now be Rejoiners, that this could be worse than being in the EU for the UK as a whole. But I would ask for solutions for those deprived areas like East Lancashire, where being in the EU coupled with globalisation hasn’t helped. Otherwise it sounds a bit like “I’m all right Jack, and I know you aren’t, but I’m afraid top priority is to preserve may own lifestyle, not to try and improve yours”. We’ve tried it the other way - it didn’t work (GDP per capita is only 26th in the world, and in deprived areas it is below every single US state and below 100+ countries).

Now we need a total change in direction and those who did well from the EU need to be nimble and ensure they do well in the new world too.

Personally I find it strange that state aid has become such an issue. Whilst we were in the EU our spending on state aid was minimal compared to countries like Germany and France (I can't remember exactly off the top of my head but something like 25% of theirs). It seems surprising that this long held strategy is going to change.

In terms of the free ports, putting aside any discussion over whether they'll really benefit the economy, there isn't any EU rules stopping that. The UK has had free ports in the recent past and not continued with them.

For areas like east Lancashire, specifically how has being in the EU not helped?

[clarethomer]

Still no links to EU Member states denying the Barnier rumours. Never mind..

Good post Crosspool. Nimble/Agile is definitely the way forward. We are reacting to the no deal scenario. We ain't going to honour a WA if they wont discuss trade deals with us.

The sequencing of these negotiations may have been favourable to the EU at the outset but its coming around the bite everyone on the backside as the reality is setting in that the EU are determined to be protectionists and focus on the asking for things that they know the UK cannot give.

Thank god, they can't veto us trying to prepare for ensuring we have maximum flexibility to tenure the people of the UK are looked after and not shackled to a WA agreement that is fundamentally flawed.

[Lancasterclaret]

This is going really well isn't it?

[martin_p]

The sequencing of these negotiations may have been favourable to the EU at the outset but its coming around the bite everyone on the backside as the reality is setting in that the EU are determined to be protectionists

Yeah, next they’ll be forming some sort of trade block as a way of looking after their interests!

[Spijed]

Still no links to EU Member states denying the Barnier rumours. Never mind..

Good post Crosspool. Nimble/Agile is definitely the way forward. We are reacting to the no deal scenario. We ain't going to honour a WA if they wont discuss trade deals with us.

The sequencing of these negotiations may have been favourable to the EU at the outset but its coming around the bite everyone on the backside as the reality is setting in that the EU are determined to be protectionists and focus on the asking for things that they know the UK cannot give.

Thank god, they can't veto us trying to prepare for ensuring we have maximum flexibility to tenure the people of the UK are looked after and not shackled to a WA agreement that is fundamentally flawed.

The problem is, how can the peace process in Ireland remain intact if there has to be a hard border, for example?

As soon as any checkpoint goes up then the trouble will restart.

[martin_p]

This is going really well isn't it?

Welcome back

[Lancasterclaret]

Welcome back

Only logged in to see if people are still pretending that its all going well.

To be honest, this thread serves no point whatsoever, the people who want this are happy to pretend this is what they wanted all along, so the best bet is to leave them to it.

[martin_p]

Only logged in to see if people are still pretending that its all going well.

I can’t imagine you’re surprised.

[CombatClaret]

First time I have commented on Brexit for months.

This latest move isn’t rocket science, it’s the UK, especially after Covid, being desperate to use state aid to prop up new emerging businesses in deprived areas, many of which are to become free ports, in a way that isn’t allowed while a member of the EU or under the Withdrawal Agreement (which pragmatically Johnson had to get through virtually unchanged last year).

The argument being that countries like Germany, with high productivity built up over decades, have an innate advantage that would stop us thriving unless we use state aid (which many countries also do, China being the obvious example). That would help new innovative companies to grow until their productivity becomes self sustaining.

I accept the argument from those who used to be Remainers, who may now be Rejoiners, that this could be worse than being in the EU for the UK as a whole. But I would ask for solutions for those deprived areas like East Lancashire, where being in the EU coupled with globalisation hasn’t helped. Otherwise it sounds a bit like “I’m all right Jack, and I know you aren’t, but I’m afraid top priority is to preserve may own lifestyle, not to try and improve yours”. We’ve tried it the other way - it didn’t work (GDP per capita is only 26th in the world, and in deprived areas it is below every single US state and below 100+ countries).
Now we need a total change in direction and those who did well from the EU need to be nimble and ensure they do well in the new world too.

Where to start. After Brexit we will desperately need to strike up trade deals with countries and how do we often make countries look favorably on the UK. With foreign aid, why do you think China is building hospitals in Africa? It's about power projection and cultural soft power. And now it's one more thing we won't be doing and countries like China will have yet another advantage over us.
I'll almost be pleased when it's spent in the UK as it will be clear how much the right wing media has overblown the effect it will have, it's just an easy target for outrage headlines.

Freeports, already allowed. Leaving will mean slight better tax/tariff arrangements. It will not be the magic bullet, we heart nothing about them in the leave campaign because they didn't really matter. Now one of the few things left.

I don't know the solution to help East Lancashire in a globalized world, but It's probably not to slam the front door and pretend it's not out there while refusing extremely favorable trade terms with your closest and most profitable markets. The solutions are probably some kind of internal UK policy but you won't get it from this government because it's easier to scapegoat them over there and whilst saying it they can line their own pockets.

[martin_p]

I see the government are now pushing the line that no deal would be a ‘good outcome’.

[Mala591]

It would seem rational (now that we are an independent country) to have a single, generic UK trade policy which is the same for any country we trade with around the world.

Having different policies/procedures for different countries/trading blocks is inefficient and extremely bureaucratic.

[Devils_Advocate]

Still no links to EU Member states denying the Barnier rumours. Never mind..

Are you on Twitter?

[martin_p]

It would seem rational (now that we are an independent country) to have a single, generic UK trade policy which is the same for any country we trade with around the world.

Having different policies/procedures for different countries/trading blocks is inefficient and extremely bureaucratic.

So you want to trade with every country in the world on WTO terms (that would be the only generic thing available to us) with all the increased ‘bureaucracy’ that entails. Super efficient!!

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I don’t think all leavers are racist and uneducated, but most racist and uneducated people voted Leave.

The things you list aren’t attack lines as though people have sat around thinking them up. They’re reasons for wanting to remain. With the 16 year olds - in the last election every seat in England would have been Labour had the vote been restricted to 18 - 24 year olds - you now have a vocal group who resent not having a say on the matter (my eldest was 17 at the time).

Leavers won, and now fully own the project. Good luck.

Thanks for confirming the reasoning for the sudden desire to lower the voting age.

We know we won and yeah we own.

[CrosspoolClarets]

For areas like east Lancashire, specifically how has being in the EU not helped?

That question has been done to death over the past 5 years. I’m not going to rehash it now, but the GDP per capita in East Lancashire (about $31,000 using the NUTS-3 boundaries) is little different to Slovenia, Italy, Spain and other nations not generally perceived as being wealthy.

That means people in those areas, and people who care about people in those areas, have every right to vote for a different approach, which they have done.To answer your question, I think we need to revisit this in 2030 and look back to say whether the 2020s outside the EU have served those areas better than 2000-2019 inside it. I have my doubts - a socialist mindset in some of these Labour councils could be argued to have held the towns back even more. But it is worth a try.