It's not just about Brexit

[Lancasterclaret]

All fair points Clarets4me, as long as May isn't set on a hard brexit.

As she appears to be rather prone to er "changing her mind", the worry is that the right of her party are stronger than the left.

[kentonclaret]

One of the whole ironies of the Brexit debate was the "Leave" campaign wanting the electorate to react in horror at the thought of £50million a day going to the EU whilst defending their government's decision of £30million a day being spent on "overseas aid."

[UpTheBeehole]

I'd vote for a party that would remove many of the yellow lines painted everywhere

Yeah that's it!

Sod the NHS! Get rid of the yellow lines instead!

[Darthlaw]

So far:

Substantial increase in minimum wage.
Removal of profit-making from the NHS, and end the NHS pay freeze
Four extra paid holidays
Build 1m houses
End tuition fees
Return ownership of the railways to us (for free, once franchises expire)
Abolition of zero-hours contracts
A free, lifelong National Education Service
A commitment to reduce inequality of wealth

And like I say, for most people, it will effectively be free. And the Conservatives? Besides colourful descriptions of the opposition leader, what - precisely - are they offering?

Do we also get a Unicorn and unlimited supply of rocking horse manure?

[kentonclaret]

I'd vote for a party that could do some of the basic tasks such as repairing the potholes in our roads.

All of the talk is about "investing in infrastructure" when we are unable to properly maintain and keep in good order the infrastructure that we do have.

Four words that were repeated constantly during the Brexit campaign but will never be used by Theresa May during this election "Australian points based system."

So, what are her concrete plans to cut immigration to the "tens of thousands" that she so dismally failed to achieve as Home Secretary?

[Bordeauxclaret]

I'd vote for a party that could do some of the basic tasks such as repairing the potholes in our roads.

All of the talk is about "investing in infrastructure" when we are unable to properly maintain and keep in good order the infrastructure that we do have.

Four words that were repeated constantly during the Brexit campaign but will never be used by Theresa May during this election "Australian points based system."

So, what are her concrete plans to cut immigration to the "tens of thousands" that she so dismally failed to achieve as Home Secretary?

"We will provide strong and stable roads"

[Imploding Turtle]

So, what are her concrete plans to cut immigration to the "tens of thousands" that she so dismally failed to achieve as Home Secretary?

It wasn't her fault. All the potential deportees got cats.

[Colburn_Claret]

That's what I can't understand either. If TM is correct in saying the other 27 EU countries are against Britain then how will a bigger majority help?

They will still be negotiating against Britain whether the Conservatives have a majority of 1 or a majority of 100 seats.

The EU listen to all the shite from the remainers, they believe, because it suits them, that the people of Britain aren't happy about Brexit. That being the case they falsely believe that by playing hard ball with us, will somehow lead to us back tracking and return to the fold.
As TM has said, no deal IS better than a bad deal. If the Tories have a large majority, and the EU know she will walk away, then they will have no option other than to take our leaving seriously and negotiate a deal that suits ALL parties.
Don't presume that ALL European countries feel the same about Britain leaving. The europhiles in charge, and want to make a new European super state, are blinkered to the fact that many other people from all nations understand why we left, many of them wish they could leave too.
A massive win for the Tories could force these myopic beauracrats in Brussels to open their eyes.

[Lancasterclaret]

If only other European countries had had elections that allowed these millions to show their disdain for the EU.............

[Imploding Turtle]

The EU listen to all the shite from the remainers, they believe, because it suits them, that the people of Britain aren't happy about Brexit. That being the case they falsely believe that by playing hard ball with us, will somehow lead to us back tracking and return to the fold.

You must have popped a shoulder reaching so far up your arse to pull this one out.

[Colburn_Claret]

I'm not getting into a slagging match, you're not worth it. But please feel free to educate me as to where I am wrong. I'm sure many of our other readers would like to be enlightened as well, or is slagging all you're good for?

[Lancasterclaret]

I think you'd need to provide some evidence to suggest you are right.

I've already torpedoed your assertion that millions of Europeans are just itching for a chance to blow their own feet off, as the elections have proved that they are not.

Where is your evidence?

[kentonclaret]

All of these other countries desperate for a chance to leave the EU like France perhaps?

France will vote in Macron (the most PRO EU candidate of the lot) who will crush anti EU candidate Le Pen in a landslide.

[Darthlaw]

France will vote in Macron (the most PRO EU candidate of the lot) who will crush anti EU candidate Le Pen in a landslide.

Not that I don't think Macron will win but can you provide next weeks winning Euromillions numbers with such clear foresight?

[pureclaret]

In my humble opinion is its all about brexit to get the right deals, without all the back biting that normally goes on. I did not vote to leave but now it needs to go through with out the different partys trying to get there own bits in.
Also for the sake of my children and grand children there is noway you can vote for Corbyn to protect our country. Last time we went for disarmament we ended in the ****, and then there was no nuclear weapons. He has said he would get rid of them, then said if he could not get rid he would never use them. Thats the same as having law and order and then saying we wont use it to protect us. Yes people still do crimes but if we left it to saying we wont arrest any one or prosecute then it would turn to vigilante justice. So vote for Conservatives and save the day!!!!

[Spijed]

I think you'd need to provide some evidence to suggest you are right.

I've already torpedoed your assertion that millions of Europeans are just itching for a chance to blow their own feet off, as the elections have proved that they are not.

Where is your evidence?

Correct. In Austria, the Netherlands and in all likelihood France the anti-EU vote has lost.

[Cryssys]

Colburn claret – your post (26) is one of the saddest and scariest things I have read on this thread. Yes the labour party is a mess at the moment but, as you rightly acknowledge, the Tories don’t give a damn about the NHS, schools and other public services. Nor do they care much about ordinary working people.

In light of this and the fact that you claim to be a lifelong socialist I fail to understand how you could even think about voting Tory. Surely it would be better not to vote or vote Lib-Dem (same thing) or, failing that, spoil your ballot paper. Whatever you think of the labour Party voting for TM is like turkeys voting for Christmas. You’ll get stuffed, roasted, picked apart and then discarded when they have had enough of you.

[Sidney1st]

If they don't care about ordinary working people, why do so many ordinary working people keep voting for them?

[UpTheBeehole]

Economic growth has slowed post-referendum, down to 0.3%

Weakest GDP results for 12 months.

Couldn't find an article on the Daily Mail or Daily Telegraph websites for some reason, so here's the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/business/li ... iness-live

[dsr]

Correct. In Austria, the Netherlands and in all likelihood France the anti-EU vote has lost.

That's misleading. In general elections in the UK, the anti-EU parties (BNP, UKIP, associated independent socialists and communists) had relatively very few votes; clearly that didn't mean that the country was wildly pro-EU.

In France, even though the anti-EU parties are on the extremist edge of politics, their National Front and Communist (or at least very left wing) candidates polled about 45% of the vote between them. You can be pretty sure that the 55% who voted for pro-EU would include people who dislike the EU and would vote out given the chance, but who dislike the NF and Communists more.

Imagine if we had another referendum at the last general election, a Presidential one, who was going to run the country - Nick Griffin or Ed Miliband. Miliband would have won by a landslide, not because his policies are wildly popular, but because he wasn't National Front. That's why Macron will win the election run-off, not because he's so popular, but because the anyone-but-Le Pen party is too strong.

(If the Democrats had put up a different candidate, they'd have won the US election. Where they went wrong was that they negated the votes from the anyone-but-Trump party by giving Trump the votes from the anyone-but-Clinton party. But Le Pen is in a far worse starting position that Trump was.)

[dsr]

Economic growth has slowed post-referendum, down to 0.3%

Weakest GDP results for 12 months.

Couldn't find an article on the Daily Mail or Daily Telegraph websites for some reason, so here's the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/business/li ... iness-live

GDP growth in the first quarter of 2016 = 0.2%
GDP growth in the first quarter of 2017 = 0.3%

In fact, in all three quarters since the Brexit vote, GDP growth has been higher than the growth in the equivalent quarter the year before. So anyone arguing for the effect of Brexit being bad has to argue that growth this year was going to be much higher than last, but because of Brexit, it's only a bit higher than last. Can that argument, reasonably, be made?

See link for stats.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united- ... gdp-growth" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Imploding Turtle]

Not that I don't think Macron will win but can you provide next weeks winning Euromillions numbers with such clear foresight?

There is no evidence supporting anyone when they say what next weeks lotto numbers will be. But there's overwelming evidence that Macron will win by a landslide.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/le ... -ever-was/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[bfcmartin]

I was born in 1963 and in all the years since then all the main parties have been in government at some point. All this education waffle they go on about regarding class sizes etc. is a load of bull. When i started school in 1967 we had 33 children in my reception class and it stayed like that until I started secondary school. There was no need for class room assistants just 1 teacher for the whole class. In Hyndburn where I was born there is exactly the same number of schools now as there was back then. The UK population in 1963 was about 53 million and now its about 65 million roughly a 20% increase. As there are no extra schools in Hyndburn where the heck do all these MPS expect the extra population of children in our area to go. The only answer is even larger class sizes. All the political parties are as guilty as one another on this as far as I'm concerned.

[If it be your will]

.

[Cryssys]

I wish I Knew Sidney. The Conservative party was established by the better off, for the benefit of the better off. It's reason for being is to promote the interest of the business and land owning community, always has been always will be. That said, they are politically and economically savvy enough to realise that they must throw people a few crusts every now and then.

Experience has taught them that if they do that whilst talking a good game (we will give you choices) and appealing to peoples sense of nationalism (we will make Britain great again) that they will get the support they need. The reality is the only choices they provide are based on your ability to pay whilst making Britain great again is just empty rhetoric to appease the naïve.

[lucs86]

A steady decline that hasn't been halted is both parties fault for not dealing with the issues.

I know some people are absolutely desperate to pin everything on those horrible Tories, but you can't I'm afraid.

I know some people are absolutely desperate to ignore the effects of the Tories' cuts to public services, cuts made based on the Tories' disdain of public services, by making it out to be part of a long term trend based on anecdotal evidence, but you can't I'm afraid.

Well you can if you really want to but it's entirely unconvincing.

[If it be your will]

.

[Colburn_Claret]

I think you'd need to provide some evidence to suggest you are right.

I've already torpedoed your assertion that millions of Europeans are just itching for a chance to blow their own feet off, as the elections have proved that they are not.

Where is your evidence?

Lancs, just because parties supporting remaining in the EU won elections in Holland and probably France, doesn't mean that those countries are 100% behind the EU. You just need to look at our country to see that. But to deny that the anti EU vote is rising, for various parties opposed to further integration, is to live in denial.
I maintain we were the first, but we won't be the last to leave. The problem is the eurocrats are deaf to any criticism. The more they try and bulldoze their agenda, the more people will rebel against it.
We gave them the perfect opportunity to take their foot off and go forward slowly, instead they're accelerating in the hope they can tie countries in before the **** hits the fan.
Nobody is against European cooperation, definitely not me, it's the European dictat that disturbs the most, and is still the reason millions voted to get out.
The problem most other European countries have is that the party leading the anti EU fight are predominantly far right, so even though there are people wishing to vote Leave, they have great difficulty in supporting those parties. IF they had a party not clouded in extremism, or a cross party concensus as we had, then I feel they would stand a far better chance of quitting.

[Lancasterclaret]

You maintain that belief as long as you want Colburn, but no other country will leave the EU.

You could argue that the only reason is that they haven't had an referendum, but the fact remains that one of the biggys during the campaign was that we needed to get out before the whole thing falls apart.

That isn't going to happen (bearing an NF win in two weeks time, and if that happens, then we'll all have a lot more things to worry about to be perfectly honest)

[Chobulous]

It just needs the right circumstances to come together. In this country we had a party that never expected to win a majority making promises to appease what they thought would be a minority party turned king-maker in a hung parliament. They did however win a majority and were stuck with a promise they couldn't get out of.
That gave the silent majority the opportunity, which they took

[Sidney1st]

Why do you feel this is so, Sidney1st?

At a guess some people agree with their policies.

Just a wild shot in the dark though.

[Sidney1st]

I know some people are absolutely desperate to ignore the effects of the Tories' cuts to public services, cuts made based on the Tories' disdain of public services, by making it out to be part of a long term trend based on anecdotal evidence, but you can't I'm afraid.

Well you can if you really want to but it's entirely unconvincing.

During Labour's last run in charge hospitals were sending operations out to private hospitals to get the work done.

Which party was in charge when they closed the A&E in Burnley?
That would be Labour.
Lets just blame the Tories though for the state of the NHS because its much easier and lazier to do.

The public services need overhauling, something's are probably out of date in regards to procedures and systems.
The cuts appear to be harsh on the surface, but I don't know the ins and out's of where public money is wasted, but its a fair bet that a lot of it has been effectively poured down the drain for a very long time, during both Labour & Tory governments.

I can see this, I understand it happens and a culture of waste and unaccountability has been accepted as the norm in public services.

I sell Land Rover parts around the world and I personally know a vice consul at one of our High Commissions and he's told me how British Embassies /High Commissions willingly over pay for parts and work to be done to their official vehicles instead of putting a little bit of effort into finding a more cost effective alternative.

They'll pay thousands of £££'s over the odds and I'm sure its common for government departments and public services to pay over the odds here in the UK for things

[AndrewJB]

Lancs, just because parties supporting remaining in the EU won elections in Holland and probably France, doesn't mean that those countries are 100% behind the EU. You just need to look at our country to see that. But to deny that the anti EU vote is rising, for various parties opposed to further integration, is to live in denial.
I maintain we were the first, but we won't be the last to leave. The problem is the eurocrats are deaf to any criticism. The more they try and bulldoze their agenda, the more people will rebel against it.
We gave them the perfect opportunity to take their foot off and go forward slowly, instead they're accelerating in the hope they can tie countries in before the **** hits the fan.
Nobody is against European cooperation, definitely not me, it's the European dictat that disturbs the most, and is still the reason millions voted to get out.
The problem most other European countries have is that the party leading the anti EU fight are predominantly far right, so even though there are people wishing to vote Leave, they have great difficulty in supporting those parties. IF they had a party not clouded in extremism, or a cross party concensus as we had, then I feel they would stand a far better chance of quitting.

By the same logic it has to be admitted that just under half the people who voted in the Ref. are generally for the EU.

[Lancasterclaret]

As someone on twitter has pointed out "Strong and stable leadership" fits right into "all things bright and beautiful"

[dpinsussex]

You mean the absolute number of £s someone in the top 10% pays, and someone in the bottom 10%? (Regarding post 41)

Someone earning £100,000 pays £34,000 in tax.
Someone earning £5,000 pays £2,255 in tax.

Not quite.
I was meaning total earnt by top 10%
Tax on that
Compared to total earnings of bottom 10% and then tax paid on that.
Was interested on the physical differential in cash terms

[ClaretMoffitt]

There is no evidence supporting anyone when they say what next weeks lotto numbers will be. But there's overwelming evidence that Macron will win by a landslide.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/le ... -ever-was/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They must enjoy getting shot, run over and stabbed in France.

[claretdom]

I presume turtle will be just as busy urging to show support for the Le Pen voters and they shouldn't be ignored just because they lost in an election.

[Imploding Turtle]

I presume turtle will be just as busy urging to show support for the Le Pen voters and they shouldn't be ignored just because they lost in an election.

I don't think i've ever suggested peoples point points of view be ignored. Rejected yes, but not ignored. Good luck backing up yourpathetic little comment with some kind of evidence.

[claretdom]

You don't even nibble anymore just a full on munch.

Get well soon.

[Hipper]

The simple fact is that there is no alternative to the tories. I dress to the left of middle, with spasmodic sorties into Marxist. I will vote, as it is one of the few ways that I can register my belief in democracy, but it is with heavy heart that my vote will be blue. Fortunately this is the very instance where the tories can actually help their country. Make no mistake, Brexit is of utmost importance & the media will make sure that we all know it. Their 'in built' selfishness & bullingdonience is ideal for the upcoming scenario with Europe. It will dumbfound & bludgeon the Eurocrats, who are much more engrossed with their crisp designer suits & waspish femme fatale.

Apart from that, who do you think would come out on top? Theresa in her 'Mr Burns' character - Homer Corbyn or Nelson UKIP Muntz? For the Scots amongst you - Nicola 'Maggie' Sturgeon.

jackmuggins you *******!

I do not know what the word 'Bullingdonience' means?

I looked it up on the internet - nothing. So I went to look in my 'The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary'. I pulled one of the volumes from the shelf above my desk. What I didn't notice was that there were some metal shelving uprights in front of it that came tumbling down with a great crash on my desk with one striking me on my right testicle. Aaaaaah. Having recovered a bit (oooooh), I opened the book only to find it was the wrong volume. You c.....! So I took the other volume down but unfortunately there were some books piled on top of it which should have come down when I pulled out the first book but somehow did not. These books now crashed down and, you guessed it, one particularly heavy hard back landed on my left testicle. You sod!

To cap it all the word is not in the fu.....g dictionary.

Wtf does it mean?

[Imploding Turtle]

You don't even nibble anymore just a full on munch.

Get well soon.

Slander isn't the same as trolling. Trolling is an art form that I'm good at and you're not. Saying something slanderous that prompts a denial isn't exactly difficult, and if you think it is then that says more about you than I think you realise.

[claretdom]

Slander now ha. Lighten up, hope you are getting some practice in as well you've a big match (league decider isn't it?) coming up. Good luck in it

[Paul Waine]

Building a million homes will inject a lot of cash into the economy and create jobs. The initial outlay is an investment and pay itself back over time. Certainly better than the current system of subsidising private landlords. Likewise free tuition will pay itself back through the many benefits of having a better educated population.

When it comes to wealth inequality, there's a level of wealth at which you have to question whether it's really any good for the country. Can a billionaire work as hard as a thousand millionaires? Would a billionaire's life suddenly become difficult, or empty and meaningless if they only had a quarter of their wealth?

Hi Andrew, I don't know any billionaires personally. Would be interesting question to ask Bill Gates and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.

I suspect most "billionaires" and many "millionaires," also, aren't defined by residence in a single country. There are a number of billionaires listed among the UK's wealthiest people. I understand many of them earned/gained their wealth elsewhere. Should we stop them moving to UK and stop them spending (some of) their wealth here?

Or, if we don't know them, does it matter?

[If it be your will]

.

[Paul Waine]

Trolling is an art form that I'm good at and you're not.

Hi IT, is that's all you are about changing trolling into an art form?

Got it.

[Paul Waine]

Not quite.
I was meaning total earnt by top 10%
Tax on that
Compared to total earnings of bottom 10% and then tax paid on that.
Was interested on the physical differential in cash terms

Hi dpinsussex, there are a lot of stats in the ONS report: "Effects of taxes and benefits on UK household income: financial year ending 2016."
Though ONS analyses across households, rather than individuals, and reports in top 1/5th and bottom 1/5th.

Table of contents
Main points
Things you need to know about this release
Taxes and benefits lead to income being shared more equally
Half of households in the UK receive more in benefits than they paid in taxes
Households with main earner between 25 and 64 paid more in taxes than they received in benefits
Cash benefits have the largest effect on reducing income inequality
Housing benefit is the most progressive cash benefit, though the State Pension makes the largest contribution to the overall progressivity of cash benefits
Economic context
What’s changed in this bulletin?
Quality and methodology
Users and uses of these statistics
Related statistics and analysis

Main points
In the financial year ending 2016, the average income of the richest fifth of households before taxes and benefits was £84,700 per year, 12 times greater than that of the poorest fifth (£7,200 per year). An increase in the average income from employment for the poorest fifth of households has reduced this ratio from 14 to 1 in the financial year ending 2015.
The ratio between the average income of the top and bottom fifth of households (£63,300 and £17,200 respectively) is reduced to less than 4 to 1 after accounting for benefits (both cash and in kind) and taxes (both direct and indirect).
On average, households paid £7,800 per year in direct taxes (such as Income Tax, National Insurance contributions and Council Tax), equivalent to 18.7% of their gross income. Richer households pay higher proportions of their income in direct taxes than poorer households.
The poorest households paid more of their disposable income in indirect taxes (such as Value Added Tax (VAT) and duties on alcohol and fuel) than the richest (27.0% and 14.4% respectively) and therefore indirect taxes cause an increase in income inequality.
There has been a 14% increase in the average amount paid in Insurance Premium Tax for all households, reflecting the November 2015 increase in the standard rate from 6% to 9.5%.
Overall, 50.5% of all households received more in benefits (including in kind benefits such as education) than they paid in taxes (direct and indirect). This is equivalent to 13.7 million households and continues the downward trend seen since the financial year ending 2011.
Households where the main earner is aged between 25 and 64 paid more in taxes (direct and indirect) than they received in benefits (including in kind benefits), whilst the reverse was true for those aged 65 and over.
Despite being less progressive (targeted towards reducing inequality) than many of the other benefits, the State Pension has consistently made the largest contribution to the overall progressivity of cash benefits over the past 22 years.

[Imploding Turtle]

Hi IT, is that's all you are about changing trolling into an art form?

Got it.

eh?

[Imploding Turtle]

Slander now ha. Lighten up, hope you are getting some practice in as well you've a big match (league decider isn't it?) coming up. Good luck in it

I ******* need it! The wins have been getting more difficult as my form regresses to its usual shite.

[Sidney1st]

I doubt it can be that. Which specific policies were you thinking of?

Am I allowed to hold a poll to find out why people vote tory?
There will be some people who vote for them because they've always done it, just like some people vote Labour because they've always done it regardless of who's in charge.

I couldn't tell you which policies people agree with, that's their own personal opinion.

[Hipper]

Building a million homes will inject a lot of cash into the economy and create jobs. The initial outlay is an investment and pay itself back over time. Certainly better than the current system of subsidising private landlords. Likewise free tuition will pay itself back through the many benefits of having a better educated population.

When it comes to wealth inequality, there's a level of wealth at which you have to question whether it's really any good for the country. Can a billionaire work as hard as a thousand millionaires? Would a billionaire's life suddenly become difficult, or empty and meaningless if they only had a quarter of their wealth?

On the question of free tuition, presumably referring to university tuition, I'm not sure it '....will pay itself back through the many benefits of having a better educated population' anymore then the current system.

As I understand it loans to student are financed by a government body (the Student Loans Company) which is financed by government funds. Presumably in time it will be self financing, more or less, as students repay their loans. In effect past students will be funding new students. This is instead of all tax payers subsidising students and I guess allowing reduced government funding of universities.

Your argument would be valid if you can show that some students are deterred from studying by these loans. Is that the case?

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... r-families" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;