May loses it

[IanMcL]

Given the bankruptcy of leadership, perhaps we should ask if we can stay in Europe.

[martin_p]

I agree with you. But poverty, as officially defined in this country, is not to do with how little you have; it's to do with how much anyone else has. It's relative poverty, and the basic rationale is that if you have less than 60% of the median income, you are poor. This definition of course makes it impossible to eliminate poverty except by eliminating inequality - not by taking money from the rich, but by taking money from the people in the middle. If the middle classes have big tax rises, their income drops, and the poverty line gets lower - there are fewer people living in poverty and the statistics are better.

Of course you can reduce poverty by targeting the rich! Higher taxes for the rich increasing benefits for the poor, hey presto, done!

[AndrewJB]

Of course you can reduce poverty by targeting the rich! Higher taxes for the rich increasing benefits for the poor, hey presto, done!

That would be the sensible way to do it, however there are a lot of appeasers out there who insist that at the slightest rise in tax the rich will leave - squeezing their London property portfolio into a portmanteau. You might also be told that studies show tax rises on the rich bring in lower revenues (though if you increase the taxes they switch to from the increases income tax - capital gains or dividends - then they can't avoided it as easily. What those appeasers lack is a sufficient imagination to block off the loopholes, make transgressions expensive, and the likelihood of getting caught more real.

[If it be your will]

.

[aggi]

Hi aggi, homelessness is bad. I don't know if it is getting worse. In early 1990s in London there were multiple encampments under bridges/underpasses. There was a very large one at the southern end of Waterloo Bridge. After 2 or 3 years it had to be cleared because the large bonfires that were built most nights had cracked the road above. There was a real danger of a London bus crashing through onto the people living below.

John Bird and Big Issue made a big attempt to change things.

Probably drink/drugs/mental health and family breakdown (often linked) are all contributors to the "rough sleepers."

I don't think it is back to those levels (although someone who has been in London for much longer than I have commented that it reminded them of the bad old days around King's Cross).

It has become much worse over the past five or ten years though. What is also noticeable is that it appears not to be like other rough sleepers, they're not begging or wandering during the day (and often aren't around at all during the day).

[kentonclaret]

Britain will have to pay a final settlement bill to the EU and I am sure that this is recognised and accepted by all of those in government and involved in the Brexit negotiations. There are financial commitments that Britain will still have to honour such as our share of MEP Pension arrangements and liabilities. Somebody has to keep Nigel Farage in beer, fags and Business Class once he retires! Whilst the figure of £100 million is probably well wide of the mark it suits the government to make a huge song and dance about the £100m figure so that when a final agreement is reached on say, £50 million, that they are still able to claim "Victory for the Daily Mail" and "Victory for Theresa May."

On the quoted figure of £100 million the government doth protest too much.

[CleggHall]

Kenton the figure is 100 billion euros not 100 million! Quite a difference.

[Lancasterclaret]

See we had an estimated 35% turn out for the local elections yesterday.

Its getting to the stage were you really have to consider making it illegal not to vote.

[claretdom]

See we had an estimated 35% turn out for the local elections yesterday.

Its getting to the stage were you really have to consider making it illegal not to vote.

Think it says a lot about the people standing as much as the people voting. Look at last nights QT the only person worthy of a vote on the panel wasn't an MP but a CEO.

[Lancasterclaret]

True, though Leanne Wood came across well I thought.

David Davis didn't have to do anything, Paul Nuttall has one policy and the Labour one was appalling.

[Sidney1st]

See we had an estimated 35% turn out for the local elections yesterday.

Its getting to the stage were you really have to consider making it illegal not to vote.

Or alternatively get the parties to be more engaging with the public and try to re-inspire the people.

If people don't want to vote, then they won't vote, even if it's illegal not to vote.

[Lancasterclaret]

Its an hard won freedom though Sid, its not something that people can be complacent about.

I've not a problem (well, I have, because it would be an effective one party state but I think you know what I mean!) if 80% of the countrys population voted for anybody, as long as it was 80% of the voting population.

But it isn't, and as the old always vote, then you are going to a very skewered vote. Which isn't good for democracy.

[Lancasterclaret]

Good poll of polls on twitter at the moment

Shows all parties pretty much unchanged, except the UKIP vote has collapsed, and all of it has gone to the Conservatives.

Tory Landslide is nailed on now if that continues next month.

[Falcon]

That's with the time-honoured assumption that the young are more left-leaning.

With the rise of 'alt-right' meme culture I'm not so sure. Then again I'm 31 so I haven't a clue what the yoof are doing any more, much as I like to pretend I'm still down with the kids.

[Sidney1st]

Its an hard won freedom though Sid, its not something that people can be complacent about.

I've not a problem (well, I have, because it would be an effective one party state but I think you know what I mean!) if 80% of the countrys population voted for anybody, as long as it was 80% of the voting population.

But it isn't, and as the old always vote, then you are going to a very skewered vote. Which isn't good for democracy.

Yes it's a hard won freedom, but people also have the right not to vote if they aren't inspired by any of the current options.

Personally I'm not convinced by any of them 100%.

If Labour had David Miliband then they'd probably be doing better then they are now, he was someone I could believe in.

As it is I lean more towards the Tories, but as I'm not on the electoral roll I won't be voting this time round.

[ablueclaret]

Sadly the rise of Twitter etc has made the Labour Party candidates almost illiterate, they can barely do more than slogganise.
Labour always required intellectual underpinning, people who could see the bigger picture and take on the dominant forces which rule this country, in part the failure to do so now is the vast influx of ineffective or one issue female MP's but also the complete lack of gifted Renaissance men who could argue their corner on any issue.
To lose Tristram Hunt was seen by many Labour members as no more than jettisoning upper class rubbish but the Labour Party badly needs people like him who have the confidence to take on the establishment because they truly understand it.

[Sidney1st]

See the bigger picture?

No party sees the bigger picture, they'd rather play political football with the important issues like the NHS and education.
After that they look after their pay masters.

[ablueclaret]

Sad that a thread gets removed again.

[nil_desperandum]

See we had an estimated 35% turn out for the local elections yesterday.

Its getting to the stage where you really have to consider making it illegal not to vote.

I blame Corbyn and the opposition parties for this.
When TM wanted to call a "snap election" it had to be passed by Parliament. The opposition should have put an amendment that said, "Yes - fine - but only if you move the County and Mayoral elections to the same date".
There is voter fatigue, all the recent emphasis has been on the forthcoming general election, and yesterday was a MASSiVE waste of money. It should all have been done on one day. Holding elections costs a great deal of money. Of course you can't put a price on democracy, but having 2 elections in 5 weeks is just unacceptable IMO.
Leaving all politics aside, there was always going to be an abysmal turn out yesterday, and the majority of those who would vote would- in all probability - be the older generation who have always voted, never miss, and vote Tory in a larger proportion than for other parties.
Did you vote yesterday?
Most of my family didn't.

[dsr]

See we had an estimated 35% turn out for the local elections yesterday.

Its getting to the stage were you really have to consider making it illegal not to vote.

But do we really want elections to be decided by the "don't know and don't care" vote?

[CleggHall]

To encourage voting let's use 21st century technology and vote by mobile phone, Internet etc. Why do we have to trail to a polling station and use a blunt pencil on a piece of string? This would perhaps encourage the young to vote and grey people who don't have the technology could still use their postal votes. Better still if the old reactionaries don't bother!

[dsr]

To encourage voting let's use 21st century technology and vote by mobile phone, Internet etc. Why do we have to trail to a polling station and use a blunt pencil on a piece of string? This would perhaps encourage the young to vote and grey people who don't have the technology could still use their postal votes. Better still if the old reactionaries don't bother!

Because it's still supposed to be a secret ballot. That is one of the big problems with postal voting and election fraud - a postal ballot can be manipulated because it makes it possible to (eg.) force your spouse to vote the way you tell them.

[CleggHall]

If that's the case (evidence?), we should do away with postal votes and reduce the turnout figures even more.

[Sidney1st]

If that's the case (evidence?), we should do away with postal votes and reduce the turnout figures even more.

Didn't the Labour MP/councillor for daneshouse get in trouble for postal vote fraud?

[Lancasterclaret]

But do we really want elections to be decided by the "don't know and don't care" vote?

Depends if you believe in Democracy or not.

You and Ringo have some very strange ideas about which parts of Democracy you like, and which bits you can ignore.

[dsr]

If that's the case (evidence?), we should do away with postal votes and reduce the turnout figures even more.

No, because postal votes are essential for some people, eg. housebound, or on holiday. But postal votes should be applied for in person, giving reasons, and in the case of housebound people an electoral official ought to go to their house and do the same confirmation as they do for people at the polling booth.

They ought to go back to having a policeman on each polling station as well, and to properly enforcing the rule about voting being secret - ie. when you vote, no-one else is allowed in the booth with you, and you aren't allowed to show anyone else who you voted for. One of the major points of a secret ballot is that you are not allowed to prove to anyone who you voted for; if properly applied, this means that (eg.) husbands/wives/employers/landlords/creditors cannot enforce who you vote for.

[Lancasterclaret]

Internet voting is the way forward IMHO

[quoonbeatz]

to be fair, the whole thing is open to fraud the way it currently is, you don't even need ID at a polling station.

[Lancasterclaret]

http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2017/05/05/loc ... racy-best/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This actually happened, and stopped Northumbria Council become Conservative from NOC.

[Damo]

Let's be straight.
Forcing people to vote isn't democratic.
People need to stop looking for ways to comfort themselves that not everyone thinks the way they personally do.
Blaming voting systems and people's dissalusionment with politics just smacks of bad sportsmanship.
It's fairly obvious why people couldn't be bothered to vote after all the goings on in politics over the past few years. And quite a lot of traditional Labour voters that I know cannot bring themselves to vote for the communist IRA sympaphiser, nor vote for any Tory candidate no matter what position they take. Why should anyone be forced to take time out to spoil a paper or protest vote for fringe lunatic parties like UKIP, the Green party, the monster raving loony party, the Lib Dem's or the SNP?

[Lancasterclaret]

Then we are going to have a one party state, with an overwhelming backing from the only organisation that would be left to challenge them, the media.

That doesn't mean anything bad will happen, or that they are going to change stuff so they stay in forever (already done with boundary changes!) but the risk is there.

I'm not going to go down the route used by mental UKIPPERS about people in the past dying for us not to be controlled by Europe, but you need to remember that the right to vote is not universal and needs to be cherished.

[Imploding Turtle]

Let's be straight.
Forcing people to vote isn't democratic.

Today I learned that Australia isn't a democracy.

But the UK with where 4 million votes gets you 60+ MPs or only 1 MP, depending on what party you're in, is a beacon of democracy.

[claretandy]

Tories making big gains in jockland!

[Imploding Turtle]

to be fair, the whole thing is open to fraud the way it currently is, you don't even need ID at a polling station.

Oh good. In-person voter fraud scaremongering has made its way across the Atlantic to us now.

[quoonbeatz]

Oh good. In-person voter fraud scaremongering has made its way across the Atlantic to us now.

i'm not scaremongering at all, it just seems fairly obvious that you can rock up and give any name and address from that area without it being checked.

you'd obviously have to be really arsed about committing fraud to traipse round different polling stations to do it.

the whole voting system is surprising antiquated for this day and age.

[Imploding Turtle]

i'm not scaremongering at all, it just seems fairly obvious that you can rock up and give any name and address from that area without it being checked.

you'd obviously have to be really arsed about committing fraud to traipse round different polling stations to do it.

the whole voting system is surprising antiquated for this day and age.

It's been like that for how many centuries now? How much in-person voter fraud has happened in all that time?

Voter ID to prevent the handful of idiots who steal peoples votes in person would be the very definition of a cure being worse than the disease. It'd cost a fortune and would effectively be a poll tax because the Tories would never make acquiring the ID free of charge.

[Damo]

Today I learned that Australia isn't a democracy.

But the UK with where 4 million votes gets you 60+ MPs or only 1 MP, depending on what party you're in, is a beacon of democracy.

You sound just like a UKipper

[Lancasterclaret]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05 ... tter-ukip/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Rubbish Party win a seat in Scotland (insert gag here!)

[quoonbeatz]

It's been like that for how many centuries now? How much in-person voter fraud has happened in all that time?

Voter ID to prevent the handful of idiots who steal peoples votes in person would be the very definition of a cure being worse than the disease. It'd cost a fortune and would effectively be a poll tax because the Tories would never make acquiring the ID free of charge.

no idea how much in-person voter fraud has happened but then, how would you tell?

and why would you need specific voter ID?

not sure why you're kicking off with me tbh, i was just pointing out, in response to posts about possibilities of postal/electronic vote fraud, that pretty much all forms of voting are open to fraud.

i don't think in-person voting fraud is a big problem or anything.

[Falcon]

You sound just like a UKipper

I don't support UKIP and have never voted for them, but I still think it's unfair how few MPs they have (had?) given their vote share. Same for Greens.

[Lancasterclaret]

Worth noticing that the Lab manifesto will include a commitment to PR.

Typically too late to do anything about it like, but it shows that at least they have finally realised that the system needs to change.

[Imploding Turtle]

You sound just like a UKipper

Then you sound just like an idiot.

[Imploding Turtle]

Worth noticing that the Lab manifesto will include a commitment to PR.

Typically too late to do anything about it like, but it shows that at least they have finally realised that the system needs to change.

Then they'll get my vote.

[Damo]

Then you sound just like an idiot.

Now you sound like claret charlie

[Imploding Turtle]

Now you sound like claret charlie

Now you sound like a genius

[Healeywoodclaret]

Hang on. Does that mean politics is about backing the winning side to you? If you pick the winning side are you clever? If you vote for a party that loses you're stupid?

Those people who voted to Leave the EU were called stupid and some.

[Lancasterclaret]

Quite a few on the radio today saying they didn't want to waste their vote, and decided to vote for the "winning" side.

Guess they must be expecting a personal telegram thanking them or something!