Portillo loses it

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Fri May 05, 2017 9:04 am

OK - subject title reflects another thread.

Michael Portillo lost his usual friendly cool with Lionel Barber, FT Editor on Andrew Neil's "This Week" last night.

Barber was stating again and again that the UK "would have to pay to leave EU." He seemed quite pleased that "we will have to pay." The FT has strong "remain" arguer, so no surprise. Barber had no argument to support how the settlement would be calculated or why it would be large.

Neil said that EU budget was only agreed until 2020, but Barber claimed that there will be infrastructure projects that will go beyond 2020. We'd have to pay to finish bridges, we would leave them only half way.

Barber explained that he'd had lunch 6 weeks ago with Juncker - and only white wine was drunk. (I'm not sure why this is important).

Portillo really ripped in to him. Said something to the effect of why was he wanting to harm UK. Andrew Neil was also annoyed with Barber. This guest section ended frostily.

A later guest referred friendly to "Michael's confrontation...."

Worth a watch - I assume it will be in iPlayer.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Fri May 05, 2017 9:18 am

Always thought he was a knob of the highest order, but I do love his travelogue 'Great Railway Journeys'.

ClaretCliff · Post by **ClaretCliff** » Fri May 05, 2017 10:06 am

Paul Waine wrote:OK - subject title reflects another thread.

Michael Portillo lost his usual friendly cool with Lionel Barber, FT Editor on Andrew Neil's "This Week" last night.

Barber was stating again and again that the UK "would have to pay to leave EU." He seemed quite pleased that "we will have to pay." The FT has strong "remain" arguer, so no surprise. Barber had no argument to support how the settlement would be calculated or why it would be large.

Neil said that EU budget was only agreed until 2020, but Barber claimed that there will be infrastructure projects that will go beyond 2020. We'd have to pay to finish bridges, we would leave them only half way.

Barber explained that he'd had lunch 6 weeks ago with Juncker - and only white wine was drunk. (I'm not sure why this is important).

Portillo really ripped in to him. Said something to the effect of why was he wanting to harm UK. Andrew Neil was also annoyed with Barber. This guest section ended frostily.

A later guest referred friendly to "Michael's confrontation...."

Worth a watch - I assume it will be in iPlayer.

It was very good. I liked the bit when Portillo christened the FT "The Daily Remainer"

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri May 05, 2017 10:12 am

ClaretCliff wrote:It was very good. I liked the bit when Portillo christened the FT "The Daily Remainer"

Does it not worry you - even just a little bit - that the FT is has consistently expressed concerns about the financial implications of Brexit?

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Fri May 05, 2017 10:30 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... k-04052017" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

didn't think he lost it to be fair...

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Fri May 05, 2017 10:40 am

nil_desperandum wrote:Does it not worry you - even just a little bit - that the FT is has consistently expressed concerns about the financial implications of Brexit?

Hi nil_d, only in answer to the question is the FT a quality business paper any more.

Seeing Lionel Barber on tv last night - and listening to what he said - didn't give me the sense that the FT has any worthwhile information to share.

Barber spoke about his lunch with Juncker 6 weeks ago. He didn't offer any explanation of the figures being thrown around in the media about the EU's claimed "exit bill." He just seemed to act as a "mouth piece" for Juncker and said "you will have to pay." No mention of what the Treaty says, no mention of what Article 50 says - and no mention of what it doesn't say.

Disappointing by the FT.

I'd be very comfortable if he'd set some reasons why there had to be an exit bill - but he didn't give any indication that he'd given this question any thought.

I'm sure someone can produce an update to "No FT No Comment" that incorporates "No Bill No EU."

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri May 05, 2017 10:46 am

nil_desperandum wrote:Does it not worry you - even just a little bit - that the FT is has consistently expressed concerns about the financial implications of Brexit?

Of course it doesn't. Brexiters aren't interested in the concerns of people they disagree with. Brexit is a religion now.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri May 05, 2017 10:59 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Of course it doesn't. Brexiters aren't interested in the concerns of people they disagree with. Brexit is a religion now.

A religion or a cult?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri May 05, 2017 11:03 am

Like everybody else who doesn't like the way we are heading, I'm now left with the only hope being that May is saying stuff to get the UKIP vote, and actually just does what she said she would do when she got the job.

Either way, she's lying to someone, which isn't a great start.

And I'm another one who like Portillos railway stuff btw

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri May 05, 2017 11:11 am

nil_desperandum wrote:A religion or a cult?

Is there a difference between the two nowadays?

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri May 05, 2017 11:18 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Is there a difference between the two nowadays?

I think it rather depends on whether you're dyslexic.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Fri May 05, 2017 12:04 pm

Just watched it - nothing to see here.

Both of em are t-its....would be my considered opinion !

DAVETHEVICAR · Post by **DAVETHEVICAR** » Fri May 05, 2017 1:18 pm

In a way it is refreshing to have one newspaper supporting the Remainers
With "rags" like Mail Sun and Express plus Telegraph and Times supporting Brexit
then the Guardian needs some support.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Fri May 05, 2017 1:34 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Does it not worry you - even just a little bit - that the FT is has consistently expressed concerns about the financial implications of Brexit?

Doesn't worry me. For 2 reasons.

1, The FT represents the wealthy , the privileged, the international moneyed and the demographic that has benefited being in the EU and benefited from the status quo. Brexit ends the status quo.

2. We're leaving the EU. The FT being remain is irrelevant and last year's battle!

Oh and somebody tell The odious Gina miller and her cronies, that looking at last nights elections, tactical voting works both ways !!!!!

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Fri May 05, 2017 1:36 pm

DAVETHEVICAR wrote:In a way it is refreshing to have one newspaper supporting the Remainers
With "rags" like Mail Sun and Express plus Telegraph and Times supporting Brexit
then the Guardian needs some support.

Try and keep upto date mate.

It's no longer Remainers and Leavers. The referendum was last year. It's winners and losers.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri May 05, 2017 2:12 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Doesn't worry me. For 2 reasons.

1, The FT represents the wealthy , the privileged, the international moneyed and the demographic that has benefited being in the EU and benefited from the status quo. Brexit ends the status quo.

Fair enough so long as you recognise that more than one million people work in the financial services sector in the UK and it pays over £70bn a year in taxes to the government, 11.5% of all receipts.
The 8.6 billion net that we currently pay to the EU will seem small fry if we lose even a fraction of that.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri May 05, 2017 2:16 pm

There is a time and a place for facts, and one involving a discussion with Ringo is not one of them.

He won remember. Nothing else is relevant.

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Fri May 05, 2017 2:25 pm

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Fri May 05, 2017 2:27 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:Always thought he was a knob of the highest order, but I do love his travelogue 'Great Railway Journeys'.

Well if this Berber had lunch with Jean Paul Drunker he probably can't really remember what was said. I would have got hold of Drunker by the throat and demanded we got our money back on the grounds that we have not had value for it.

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Fri May 05, 2017 2:31 pm

If it be your will wrote:Well I can answer this one. The FT, in all aspects (except sport), is far and away the superior newspaper of the UK. None of the others come remotely close to it. It's the only one that can confidently write 'Without fear or favour' on its editorial page and actually be telling the truth. It offers a daily window for the proles to see exactly what the elite are thinking, and how they operate. In fact, its the only newspaper that isn't a national embarrassment. And I'm saying all this despite disagreeing with most of their political and economic positions (though they did back Kinnock in '92).

If everyone sourced their information from the FT, we'd all be in a much better place.

How have you arrived at the conclusion its the best paper? Do you read all of them?

If this goon is representative of them then you are wildly out in your conclusion.

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Fri May 05, 2017 2:42 pm

DAVETHEVICAR · Post by **DAVETHEVICAR** » Fri May 05, 2017 2:58 pm

Yes Ringo the losers are all of us.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Fri May 05, 2017 3:17 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:There is a time and a place for facts, and one involving a discussion with Ringo is not one of them.

He won remember. Nothing else is relevant.

The fact is, the UK is leaving the EU.

The referendum was last year.

Leave won.

Remoaners are like the bloke in the pub after a game his team lost. Still going on "it was offside it clearly was"

Get over it.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Fri May 05, 2017 3:18 pm

DAVETHEVICAR wrote:Yes Ringo the losers are all of us.

Heard it all before mate.

When we didn't join the single currency, the Euro. That turned out to be a massive loss. NOT!!!!

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri May 05, 2017 3:24 pm

Why do you think this is like a football match?

I'm intrigued

A person not as nice as me would assume it was because you don't understand, but you've shown on most of your posts on this that you get a lot more than you are letting on!

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Fri May 05, 2017 4:09 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Why do you think this is like a football match?

I'm intrigued

A person not as nice as me would assume it was because you don't understand, but you've shown on most of your posts on this that you get a lot more than you are letting on!

I'm not saying it's like a football match lancs mate.

I'm saying that the unwillingness to finally accept last year's referendum result is like the guy still going on about the game.

Pointless.

KeighleyClaret · Post by **KeighleyClaret** » Fri May 05, 2017 4:45 pm

There will clearly be a bill for things we have already agreed to pay for, and we retain liability for pensions for MEP's for example. There are apparently 3 lists, one we will have to agree with, one we might be able to negotiate on and a third which is the EU just trying it on.

However in the scheme of things any exit bill is more of a political problem then a financial one. Any argument about it at this stage is just politics.. Like the side of the Bus in the Referendum.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri May 05, 2017 4:46 pm

But it isn't though is it?

That makes no sense. You can't change the result of a football match, but you can change the results in an election, simply because they will always be another chance to change stuff.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Fri May 05, 2017 6:16 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:But it isn't though is it?

That makes no sense. You can't change the result of a football match, but you can change the results in an election, simply because they will always be another chance to change stuff.

OK. You carry on your campaign.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Fri May 05, 2017 6:20 pm

I've thought that guy is an ocean going, fur-lined fuckw!t since he sold off all the Military housing for about 10% of its value. The company that bought it has since made a killing.

tally · Post by **tally** » Fri May 05, 2017 7:16 pm

Bradshaw would have turned in his grave at the sheer thought of it

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Fri May 05, 2017 8:20 pm

What an awful thread..
The OP..who cares..someone had an argument.
Really.
A shocking election campaign so far..just awful.

Labour have the best policies by a mile but people won't vote for Corbyn..he is surrounded by a very poor team ( esp Abbott)..bye, all of you.
May will keep saying fu**all, avoiding the public, avoiding tv debates, slagging off the important people we have to do deals with..sound bites a plenty...if you see her walking the streets engaging one to one with the proles.. gimme a shout..
Gina Millar...ffs..ffs give me strength!
( imagine emojis and expletives on a grand scale).
What a state our politics is in.
Where ( any party) are the heavyweight thinkers and leaders..just shocking?

Where are the policies/plans from the Tories...(yes I know there is a manifesto coming but....)

health
education
social services
inequality
taxes !!(ha)
economic plan?

and much more..

They will be elected with a big majority
( for several obvious reasons) and the next 5 years will be appalling in so many ways.
The Labour BigHitters will re-emerge in 2022 and win by a country mile..c'est la vie.

- in the meantime, don't be ill, or single parent, or disadvantaged, or weak, or poor, or northern..you are going to be royally shafted by the bunch for whom this is normal practice.

** I have been to a funeral today..I hope this scans well.
(- from my phone, no edit just SEND)

This lot are going

UKIP - gone..all Tories now.
Lib Dems..tragically lead by that diminutive smiley nobody who will reinvent on one issue.

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Fri May 05, 2017 8:28 pm

When I say I went to a funeral today I meant that I had had a few drinks...just re-read what I posted and I can stand by that..

Let's just try one question..

If TM and the Tories win this election ( which they obviously will)... will the UK be more or less united/ at one/ supportive in 2022, than they are now?

What do you think?

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Fri May 05, 2017 8:50 pm

If it be your will wrote:Well I can answer this one. The FT, in all aspects (except sport), is far and away the superior newspaper of the UK. None of the others come remotely close to it. It's the only one that can confidently write 'Without fear or favour' on its editorial page and actually be telling the truth. It offers a daily window for the proles to see exactly what the elite are thinking, and how they operate. In fact, its the only newspaper that isn't a national embarrassment. And I'm saying all this despite disagreeing with most of their political and economic positions (though they did back Kinnock in '92).

If everyone sourced their information from the FT, we'd all be in a much better place.

Hi if it be your will, I measure superior quality by reporting objectively and approaching topics with an enquiring and open mind - and aiming to display scholarship. The FT editorial mind has been closed on UK membership of the EU for some time. I didn't mind the FT campaigning for the remain vote, just as the Times did and still does. But, since the referendum result was declared the FT has become much less objective in its reporting and has long since failed to display any scholarship on this important political and economic issue.

The way Barber spoke about his lunch with Juncker was revealing. At one level he was factual, at another, it appeared as if he was playing "one up manship" with Andrew Neil. It also revealed Barber and the FT as a supporter of the EU bureaucrats in their aims to set a high exit bill on the UK. OK, but it won't win them additional UK business readers who need factual and objective reporting - and, as I've described it, "scholarship."

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri May 05, 2017 8:56 pm

I think it depends on how the Tories do in Scotland this time around.

If they can win seats from the SNP, then the threat of the break up of the country is massively reduced.

If the Conservatives can get a free trade deal relatively quickly with the EU, then that will be a massive help as well.

I'm not convinced at the moment that they are prepared to accept the conditions that such a deal will more than likely involve.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Fri May 05, 2017 9:02 pm

hampsteadclaret wrote:When I say I went to a funeral today I meant that I had had a few drinks...just re-read what I posted and I can stand by that..

Let's just try one question..

If TM and the Tories win this election ( which they obviously will)... will the UK be more or less united/ at one/ supportive in 2022, than they are now?

What do you think?

Hi Hampstead, you posted well. Points put across cogently. (Sorry about the funeral).

Take a look at the "Politicians you like - but not their party" thread. How many Tories can you put on your "like" list?

And, can you help me with some recommendations for Labour MPs to add to my "like" list I've got another 5, or so, to get to 10.

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Sat May 06, 2017 10:10 am

Okay..a few Labour MPs that I think we will hear more about, going forward..

Caroline Flint
Rachel Reeves
Dan Jarvis
Keir Starmer
Hilary Benn
Chuka Umunna

- after most of the present lot have lost badly, and then disappear.

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Sat May 06, 2017 12:05 pm

hampsteadclaret wrote:When I say I went to a funeral today I meant that I had had a few drinks...just re-read what I posted and I can stand by that..

Let's just try one question..

If TM and the Tories win this election ( which they obviously will)... will the UK be more or less united/ at one/ supportive in 2022, than they are now?

What do you think?

That will depend upon whether the Libs decide to argue for Britain's interests or whether they want the EU to get a fair deal.

Strangely enough I am just passing through between funeral and after party. (Americanism ?)

Just vote Tory Hampstead, you know you want to.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Sat May 06, 2017 2:03 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Does it not worry you - even just a little bit - that the FT is has consistently expressed concerns about the financial implications of Brexit?

No.

Hazzyclaret1955 · Post by **Hazzyclaret1955** » Sat May 06, 2017 5:38 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Heard it all before mate.

When we didn't join the single currency, the Euro. That turned out to be a massive loss. NOT!!!!

When the euro was launched the exchange rate was 1.42 Euros to the pound now it's 1.18. So the Euro has out performed Sterling over it's life time. But don't let the facts get in the way of cult Brexit.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Sat May 06, 2017 6:02 pm

Hazzyclaret1955 wrote:When the euro was launched the exchange rate was 1.42 Euros to the pound now it's 1.18. So the Euro has out performed Sterling over it's life time. But don't let the facts get in the way of cult Brexit.

Lets remind ourselves what the likes of Bliar, Mandelson, Clarke, Heseltine and the CBI all said in the run up to us joining the Euro.

"We'll be an economic backwater"

"We'll be cut adrift and left some where in the north atlantic"

"Investment will dry up"

All proven to scaremongering and lies.

And the same treasonous rats were still at it in the run up to the referendum.

As for a weak pound. It helps manufacturers export. And what did the lying Remoaners say about a vote to brexit!? Oh yes the former Chancellor Alistair Campbell claimed "confidence in the economy would evaporate overnight!" The lying continued didn't it. And let's look at the reality- Manufacturing output has just hit a 3 year high!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 12781.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyway you carry on being a henny penny thinking the sky's gonna fall in any time!!

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Sat May 06, 2017 6:12 pm

Hazzyclaret1955 wrote:When the euro was launched the exchange rate was 1.42 Euros to the pound now it's 1.18. So the Euro has out performed Sterling over it's life time. But don't let the facts get in the way of cult Brexit.

Hi Hazzy, let's not get too stuck with exchange rates, changes in rates are important for all currencies. The rate between GBP and Euro that we see today is similar to the rate that existed in 2011/12 (or thereabouts).

The problem with the euro is that Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal and Ireland (sometimes termed the PIGIS) cannot adjust their exchange rates against the dominant exchange rate of Germany.

Neither the "life time" of GBP nor that of the euro has come to an end just yet, but wherever the exchange rates are when that happens I won't be calling either as having "out performed" the other.

Hazzyclaret1955 · Post by **Hazzyclaret1955** » Sat May 06, 2017 6:45 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Hi Hazzy, let's not get too stuck with exchange rates, changes in rates are important for all currencies. The rate between GBP and Euro that we see today is similar to the rate that existed in 2011/12 (or thereabouts).

The problem with the euro is that Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal and Ireland (sometimes termed the PIGIS) cannot adjust their exchange rates against the dominant exchange rate of Germany.

Neither the "life time" of GBP nor that of the euro has come to an end just yet, but wherever the exchange rates are when that happens I won't be calling either as having "out performed" the other.

I agree the problems of having poorer areas in a currency zone are great, but the pound has similar problems with the different regions in this country. Germany has benefitted greatly by having a weaker exchange rate than the Dmark would have been so bailing out Greece is a small price to pay. As you say exchange rates are important and they reflect how the international markets view each currency zone. They don't think we made the right choice over Brexit they might be wrong, I hope they are. I was responding to the comment that the Euro was a basket case which it isn't.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Sat May 06, 2017 6:59 pm

Hazzyclaret1955 wrote:I agree the problems of having poorer areas in a currency zone are great, but the pound has similar problems with the different regions in this country. Germany has benefitted greatly by having a weaker exchange rate than the Dmark would have been so bailing out Greece is a small price to pay. As you say exchange rates are important and they reflect how the international markets view each currency zone. They don't think we made the right choice over Brexit they might be wrong, I hope they are. I was responding to the comment that the Euro was a basket case which it isn't.

I'm mostly thinking about Burnley's achievements in Premier League at moment.

However, there's a big difference between the UK and the euro zone. The UK is a single country and there are transfers of funds between the regions. Scotland has no problem with the currency so long as it remains part of the UK - and the same for all the regions.

With Eurozone, fiscal transfers are not allowed. Germany will not agree to them - even though Germany is the biggest beneficiary of the "fixed exchange rate" within the Eurozone. And, Greece's debt problems wouldn't exist if there were fiscal transfers. This is the fundamental reason why the euro is a "basket case" of a currency. A single currency for multiple separate countries that do not permit fiscal transfer can never work.

Awareness/realisation that this is the case is one of the stresses on the EU's Brussels elite - and is colouring their approach to the UK's exit from the EU. At the moment they see the UK's "exit bill" as providing part of the funding that will keep the euro going a little longer.

Of course, these are my personal judgements. The euro was a profound error for the EU. Time will tell how they resolve this issue.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Sat May 06, 2017 7:03 pm

Hazzyclaret1955 wrote:I agree the problems of having poorer areas in a currency zone are great, but the pound has similar problems with the different regions in this country. Germany has benefitted greatly by having a weaker exchange rate than the Dmark would have been so bailing out Greece is a small price to pay. As you say exchange rates are important and they reflect how the international markets view each currency zone. They don't think we made the right choice over Brexit they might be wrong, I hope they are. I was responding to the comment that the Euro was a basket case which it isn't.

"Germany has benefitted greatly by having a weaker exchange rate than the Dmark would have been so bailing out Greece is a small price to pay."

Germany hasn't bailed out Greece. The EU has bailed out the German banks that over-leant money to Greece.

And ask the millions of beleaguered Greeks who can no longer access their NHS due to crushing austerity measures imposed by the ECB, The IMF and the EU. If they don't mind paying with their livelihoods, prospects and health?