May vs Corbyn...tonight at 7.00pm

[ClaretMoffitt]

No deal = World Trade organisation rules. Why do people expect the EU to offer a deal that is worse than something we can get without negotiation? That's why this "no deal is worse than a bad deal" soundbite is utter bullshit.

The very worst we can end up with is WTO rules. That's not to say it's a disaster, just that it's the worst case scenario. Therfore by definition there is no bad deal that is worse than no deal.

Not necessarily, as there are talks of a punishment deal. I honestly believe parties like the Lib dems would actually take a deal hurtful to Britain just to try and stay as close to the EU as possible.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Back onto the debate, it all comes down to if you are pro Brexit or not, and if you are strong on the need for national security or not. For liberal Remainers I can see the appeal of Corbyn. I think he will do well in the polls but in the privacy of the ballot box when the hand starts shaking there is too much mud that sticks - socialism, terror group links, deals with SNP etc. I think he will get 25% and May 40%.

[Imploding Turtle]

Does that mean the EU have dropped their demand for an exit fee? Surely it would be worse to have to pay €100 billion to leave with only marginal concessions to the free market; especially if most of the concessions are to allow EU access to our market, not our access to theirs.

If you can't imagine any possible deal that is even arguably worse than no deal, then you aren't trying very hard. Especially if you consider that Corbyn has already implied that when push comes to shove, he'll sign it.

When did they demand an exit fee? Don't give me bullshit about what was in a draft plan leaked to a paper, give me an example of when they have issued a demand to the UK that we pay an exit fee.

[Imploding Turtle]

...in the privacy of the ballot box when the hand starts shaking...

What the **** are you doing in that ballot box?

[CrosspoolClarets]

What the **** are you doing in that ballot box?

I think that's what leads to a spoiled ballot paper

[Imploding Turtle]

I think that's what leads to a spoiled ballot paper

Certainly a soiled ballot.

[Wile E Coyote]

not sure i can make out what's going on recently, corbyn has been derided almost universally as a weak,spineless no hoper.
He was a virtual laughing stock in media reporting, colleagues and pundits alike never tired of saying how poor he was.
then there has been a predominantly youthful social media campaign highlighting his good points.
All those bleeding nonsense bulet point facebook things, where it makes it seem daft if anyone even considered voting for May, after all she is responsible for everything overtyl bad in society according to the new trendies.
becoming emporers new clothes syndrome i think, .

[ClaretMoffitt]

What the **** are you doing in that ballot box?

Quite funny for you that Charlie

[Damo]

But they already know we can afford to walk away. They know we can get WTO rules. There's no way they're going to offer us anything worse than WTO rules. So why the **** would they think we felt like we couldn't afford to walk away?

It's just a bullshit soundbite to appeal to those who don't think and to make it look like she's being tough when if you think about it it's an entirely empty statement.

That doesn't explain Corbyns stance

[RingoMcCartney]

But the tories don't care about public services, they're quite happy to run them down!

Fair enough

[Garnerssoap]

#thatsbollocks man the clear winner

[RingoMcCartney]

Pretty certain that no deal would be that helpful to the economy either!

The alternative is then any deal will do.....

[hampsteadclaret]

141..dermotdermot - you said..' but there would be an awful lot of unattractive additions should god help us they get elected'.

142..USC - you said..'What she is getting at is that if Corbyn was elected, he could do a deal that results in WTO rules PLUS Britain pays the EU 200 billion Euros PER YEAR for the privilege.'

wtf...have either of you got any evidence for the statements that you made in the above posts...? On what basis are you are saying what you have said?
Please provide a link so I can check the veracity of your statements....'two hundred billion euros'?!


- you are just making it up aren't you...you are guessing.

More obviously you are just spouting more of the lies and 'scaremongering' that has been a characteristic of the Conservatives campaign in the last two/three weeks.

This is backfiring though as more people spot the Tory lies, and one reason why the opinion polls show a narrowing between the main parties, day after day.

Be honest or it really is disrespecting the public.

[dsr]

When did they demand an exit fee? Don't give me [expletive deleted] about what was in a draft plan leaked to a paper, give me an example of when they have issued a demand to the UK that we pay an exit fee.

Well, I suppose you've got me again. I am going to have to learn that what I write can be taken absolutely literally if it suits your agenda. Obviously the EU have not officially demanded an exit fee (since negotiations haven't got going yet), and well done you for successfully picking out that tiny nit. However, they have given pretty strong hints that they're going to - do you seriously believe that there's a reasonable chance that their opening position might be that we can leave free of charge?

[BleedingClaret]

Paxman is just a knob.
It could have been a more useful exercise if he wasn't just interuppting and carry on trying to put words in their mouths when he'd had their answer but not the one he wanted.
In fact he's interviewing like an 18 year old student, who knows everything despite having experienced little.

[USC]

141..dermotdermot - you said..' but there would be an awful lot of unattractive additions should god help us they get elected'.

142..USC - you said..'What she is getting at is that if Corbyn was elected, he could do a deal that results in WTO rules PLUS Britain pays the EU 200 billion Euros PER YEAR for the privilege.'

wtf...have either of you got any evidence for the statements that you made in the above posts...? On what basis are you are saying what you have said?
Please provide a link so I can check the veracity of your statements....'two hundred billion euros'?!


- you are just making it up aren't you...you are guessing.

More obviously you are just spouting more of the lies and 'scaremongering' that has been a characteristic of the Conservatives campaign in the last two/three weeks.

This is backfiring though as more people spot the Tory lies, and one reason why the opinion polls show a narrowing between the main parties, day after day.

Be honest or it really is disrespecting the public.

I can't speak for dermotdermot, but yes I was "just making it up". Injecting a bit of (lost) sarcasm to reinforce the fact that stating "no deal is better than no deal" is a silly soundbite.

[Imploding Turtle]

"Does that mean the EU have dropped their demand for an exit fee?"
"They haven't made a demand for an exit fee."
"Oh my God, you're such a nit-picker"

[USC]

Even Nigel Farage wasn't impressed

I may not agree with @jeremycorbyn but he came across as being totally sincere. Paxman didn't score any goals.
Saying 'no deal is better than a bad deal' 4 times will win the May the election. But she is a weathercock who believes in very little."

[dsr]

"Does that mean the EU have dropped their demand for an exit fee?"
"They haven't made a demand for an exit fee."
"Oh my God, you're such a nit-picker"

"The EU has made a demand for an exit fee" and "The EU has said there will have to be an exit fee" are notopposites. Is it beyond you to see that they are similar positions?

I have already said that you are clever for twisting the post to get a literal meaning different from the actual meaning. Don't flog it to death. There's more to political discussion than proving that your use of language is fractionally different from mine.

[JohnMcGreal]

When May called this early election, someone suggested to me that they thought she'd called it so that she can deliberately lose it, meaning her and her party wouldn't have to deal with the inevitable clusterfuck of leaving the EU.

I dismissed it as a ridiculous conspiracy theory at the time, but I'm starting to think that they might have been on to something.

May is utterly hopeless.

[dermotdermot]

141..dermotdermot - you said..' but there would be an awful lot of unattractive additions should god help us they get elected'.

142..USC - you said..'What she is getting at is that if Corbyn was elected, he could do a deal that results in WTO rules PLUS Britain pays the EU 200 billion Euros PER YEAR for the privilege.'

wtf...have either of you got any evidence for the statements that you made in the above posts...? On what basis are you are saying what you have said?
Please provide a link so I can check the veracity of your statements....'two hundred billion euros'?!


- you are just making it up aren't you...you are guessing.

More obviously you are just spouting more of the lies and 'scaremongering' that has been a characteristic of the Conservatives campaign in the last two/three weeks.

This is backfiring though as more people spot the Tory lies, and one reason why the opinion polls show a narrowing between the main parties, day after day.

Be honest or it really is disrespecting the public.

No Hampstead, I'm not making anything up. Simply pointing to a key Corbyn policy that was not included in the manifesto. The inheritance tax threshold promise was a key policy that enabled Cameron to soar in the opinion polls prior to the 2010 election. He and Osborne promised to raise it to a million pounds and they gained about fifteen to twenty points overnight. Of course they lamely ducked out of it by saying that their new libdem partners wouldn't agree to it. I think that it has been raised to around £350,000 now. McDonnell stated just before the announcement of this election that, if chancellor, he would lower it back below £150,000. This was conveniently left out of their manifesto as it was thought that it would be detrimental to gaining votes.

[nil_desperandum]

What do you actually mean by an exit fee?
Do you mean a penalty charge for leaving, which Is what an exit fee usually means, or do you mean 2 sets of accountants getting together to calculate what we owe them, what they owe us and reaching a figure that both sides agree on?
That's not an exit fee in my book.
I'm not sure I've read that the EU has inserted any penalty fee for leaving, or expects one, but both Davis and May have said or implied in the past that we would honour any agreed financial obligations. ( The key word being agreed).

[Imploding Turtle]

What do you actually mean by an exit fee?
Do you mean a penalty charge for leaving, which Is what an exit fee usually means, or do you mean 2 sets of accountants getting together to calculate what we owe them, what they owe us and reaching a figure that both sides agree on?
That's not an exit fee in my book.
I'm not sure I've read that the EU has inserted any penalty fee for leaving, or expects one, but both Davis and May have said or implied in the past that we would honour any agreed financial obligations. ( The key word being agreed).

STOP TALKING BRITAIN DOWN!
...or something

[dermotdermot]

141..dermotdermot - you said..' but there would be an awful lot of unattractive additions should god help us they get elected'.

142..USC - you said..'What she is getting at is that if Corbyn was elected, he could do a deal that results in WTO rules PLUS Britain pays the EU 200 billion Euros PER YEAR for the privilege.'

wtf...have either of you got any evidence for the statements that you made in the above posts...? On what basis are you are saying what you have said?
Please provide a link so I can check the veracity of your statements....'two hundred billion euros'?!


- you are just making it up aren't you...you are guessing.

More obviously you are just spouting more of the lies and 'scaremongering' that has been a characteristic of the Conservatives campaign in the last two/three weeks.

This is backfiring though as more people spot the Tory lies, and one reason why the opinion polls show a narrowing between the main parties, day after day.

Be honest or it really is disrespecting the public.

Incidentally, in what part of Hampstead do you live?

[dsr]

What do you actually mean by an exit fee?
Do you mean a penalty charge for leaving, which Is what an exit fee usually means, or do you mean 2 sets of accountants getting together to calculate what we owe them, what they owe us and reaching a figure that both sides agree on?
That's not an exit fee in my book.
I'm not sure I've read that the EU has inserted any penalty fee for leaving, or expects one, but both Davis and May have said or implied in the past that we would honour any agreed financial obligations. ( The key word being agreed).

Bit of both. Theoretically it would be about two sets of accountants agreeing, but as there's virtually no chance of them agreeing, it'll all be lumped into the general negotiations about the leaving agreement (if any).

I think there's virtually no chance of any significant leaving deal. There might be a bit of playing at the edges, eg. they might eventually agree the mutual rights of UK residents in the EU and vice versa, but I can't see the rest of it being settled.

[IanMcL]

Definitely.

Very idealistic, mind, almost to the point of naivety but certainly a bloke who is passionate for his cause. Unfortunately the idealism of negotiating between conflicting sides and negotiation in the middle east it the bit that concerns me.

Put in the position May was on Tuesday morning, would he raise the threat level to critical or look for someone to negotiate with about stopping an impending attack?

First comes protection of your own and next the negotiation...or in Tory terms, the bombing...

[IanMcL]

All this rubbish about negotiating and 'tough' is wide of the mark. All you have to do is look at any decent trading partner who is not in Europe and that is the 'norm'. The fact we are local to Europe is neither here nor there. Then you look at the advantages to both to improve the lot of both. There will be much that it is in the interest of major European countries to maintain and for Britain. They are the simple like for likes.

Then you have the situations where one or the other would like an extra few things that are different to the other. That is the bartering side, where neither side has to agree the barter, however, they will work towards a package that, overall is good for both sides.

Everything else is out of the agreement. It is quite possible that there will be a fee to pay, to make up some of the ground, as the UK gets 26 market advantages for the price of one. The requirement is to assess the advantage versus the price and either agree or not.

This should all be done amicably by civil servants acting on existing data and potential. The final bit is for the politicians to vote it through, having lashed it up to try and secure something that they particularly think makes THEM look good, from the public viewpoint. Who needs politicians?

[dermotdermot]

Incidentally, in what part of Hampstead do you live?

Not being flippant here,Hampstead. It matters. If you live in say West Hampstead you might have no worries but if you live in Hampstead Garden Suburb you might have cause for concern. In the extremely small print in the little red book you will find a reference to the 'garden tax'. This, I think you will discover, will find you liable to crippling stealth taxes that will perhaps change your voting intentions completely. Draconian!

[Imploding Turtle]

Not being flippant here,Hampstead. It matters. If you live in say West Hampstead you might have no worries but if you live in Hampstead Garden Suburb you might have cause for concern. In the extremely small print in the little red book you will find a reference to the 'garden tax'. This, I think you will discover, will find you liable to crippling stealth taxes that will perhaps change your voting intentions completely. Draconian!

You're talking about the land value tax which it has only said it would look at as a possibe replacement if Labour decide to do away with Council Tax. And i don't know why you feel the need to lie about it being hidden away in the small print. Its font size is as big as anything else that isn't a title and there's nothing stealthly about it, it would replace council tax for **** sake. We literally get a bill for that through our door ever year, we see the exact ******* figure. We'd ******* notice it!



Anyway. Here's a simple and brief explanation of why the current way we tax properties is bullshit. How it disincentivies investment in the land, discourages investment in the surrounding land and overall is a repressive tax compared to LVT. It's only a short video and it explains it pretty well. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok2uR3btMrE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It also tells you why calling it a garden tax is bullshit because if you own the land on which both your buildings are on and your garden then your taxes will go down because the taxes on all that unimproved land in the country that is owned by the land barons will go up. The only possible way your taxes could go up is if the combined value of the land + improvements is somehow lower than the value of the land on its own, and you don't need to be a genius to work out how likely that is.

[fatboy47]

Not being flippant here,Hampstead. It matters. If you live in say West Hampstead you might have no worries but if you live in Hampstead Garden Suburb you might have cause for concern. In the extremely small print in the little red book you will find a reference to the 'garden tax'. This, I think you will discover, will find you liable to crippling stealth taxes that will perhaps change your voting intentions completely. Draconian!

its a tough concept for some to grasp, but maybe, just maybe, hampers sole consideration when voting isnt just some narrow little view on which party will put an extra few shillings in his wallet.....maybe like most labour supporters he wants to live in a decent society and not a sewer full of grab-alls.

just a thought.

[mikeS]

I don't think the campaign is going very well for Theresa.

[Imploding Turtle]

Oh and by the way. That thing that we use to check the credibility anything the government says regarding what the government says about how much things will cost, like manifesto pledges. The IFS. It loves the idea of a land value tax.

Here are the conclusions of a review it did on reforming the way taxes are collected.




And here's the Sept 2011 press release - https://www.ifs.org.uk/pr/mirrlees_sept11.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But Turtlebrains, if it's such a good idea then why aren't we doing it already?
Because guess what kind of politicians the land barons pay for.

[Right_winger]

We should name this site upthecorbyn

[claretdom]

We should name this site upthecorbyn

Sounds better than uptheabbott

[ClaretAndJew]

I prefer it up the arse

[hampsteadclaret]

136...I just corrected it for you..

' I really really hope, with all my heart, the amount of people who will have changed their voting intention based on tonight will be in the hundreds at best'.

Much better..

[Wokingclaret]

Sounds better than uptheabbott

Too late, he's been there!