Fruit and veg farmers face labour crunch

[dpinsussex]

(Anyway, obesity reduces tax, not increases it. Fat people die young.

Wow you are so sympathetic!!
Get fat and then kill yourself off save the country a fortune.

Glad you arent in politics smh

[CombatClaret]

It could be used in areas were labour is needed and you could bus people in from close by surrounding areas. It should pay at least minimum living wage which would with current income tax be un-taxed they could then be given the opportunity to earn more than their jobseekers benefits should they wish by doing more hours but as a minimum do say 12 hrs a week which would earn them more than standard JSA...

It could help some of these people back into permanent work by breaking the signing on cycle and getting them motivated for work...
Help solve the labour shortage the farmers are currently seeing.

That would be a lovely scheme but a subsided scheme it would have to be. If it was a voluntary way to top up your JSA numbers day to day numbers could vary hugely. No good for the farmer If 10 people turn up one day and 3 the next; meanwhile next door has 12 Bulgarians working every day 8am-6pm.

Also speaking from experience agricultural labour would not motivate anyone to get back into the job market. As a teenager it motivated me to find a different job but If it was meant to be a example of how great working can be it's about the worst one you can find. Some people find working in an office too hard let alone a field.

[Sidney1st]

Some people find working difficult full stop.

[brexit]

Why don't you start picking fruit for a living?

and give up my 102000 euro a year job in strasbourg no thanks

[dsr]

There are countless examples if you bother looking.
Here's your starter for ten: http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/mi ... h-11946683

No doubt if you check the court reports you can find evidence of all sorts of illegal activity. It doesn't necessarily follow that that's the norm. Now, you may be right or you may be wrong about the average Romanian working for corrupt and criminal bosses who pay way below the legal minimum wage; but if you're right, then it surely would be a good thing if they all went bust and we had to pay more for our food.

[dsr]

Wow you are so sympathetic!!
Get fat and then kill yourself off save the country a fortune.

Glad you arent in politics smh

Sympathetic to who, exactly? The suggestion was that obesity was costing the country a lot of money. Which is the more valid answer - "it isn't costing a lot, and here's why" - or "those poor poor fat people, don't you feel sorry for them"? I never said I wasn't sympathetic - it just wasn't relevant to what I was saying.

Essentially my position is that if people want to eat a lot, I'm willing to let them. With an additional caveat that doctors don't know everything, and so I will review policies which have been actively pushed by doctors during my lifetime and select the ones I like best.

NMM.

[CombatClaret]

People in developed countries don't want to pay the prices it would cost for products to be made with labour paid enough to live reasonably in their own country.

The problem is it's British farmers and British crops so some has to pick them in this country, and because we're a developed nation most native citizens raised here in the last two or three decades don't want to do a job that is akin to medieval peasantry for the lowest legal wage.
So there in lies the problem.

[If it be your will]

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[If it be your will]

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[If it be your will]

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[Imploding Turtle]

Leave caller on James O'Brien yesterday.

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/j ... m=referral" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He's asked that same question before, months ago, and couldn't get an example of a single law from a similar caller.

Here it is: http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/j ... to-losing/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And this is why i opposed the referendum in the first place. We don't have a press that is capable of the impartiality required (not complete impartiality, just enough impartiality to inform us). These people who voted leave yet can't give an example of a power we're regaining are probably among the most politically engaged. They'll be the types who will read every Mail or Sun article about Taking Our Country Back™ yet because these sources of information are providing them with absolutely no information at all that isn't just lies, then while being so politically engaged they're still completely misinformed about the thing the were crying out for a referendum about. Yet if anyone tells them how wrong they are they just dig their heel in in the manner that called did when O'Brien asked would it be better if each country could veto laws it didn't like, the caller says it would and then when O'Brien reveals that that's already the case the caller's position was unmoved.

Facts don't matter to these people unless they validate their feelings and it's because of attitudes and intellectual stubborness like this, to borrow a quote from one senior Tory recently, "this country is f*cked" and "when the public realize they have been sold a pup they will turn on the [Conservative] party."

And because I know there's no changing the minds of these people i've got many years of smugness in front of me as people like me are proven time and again to be right.

Edit: As a perfect example - Imagine if the right-wing press had spent their ink informing its readers that it isn't the EU that's forcing free movement on the UK but infact it's our own politicians who are choosing not to restrict free movement by enacting perfectly legal restrictions. http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk ... mmigration" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ClaretMoffitt]

He's asked that same question before, months ago, and couldn't get an example of a single law from a similar caller.

Here it is: http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/j ... to-losing/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And this is why i opposed the referendum in the first place. We don't have a press that is capable of the impartiality required (not complete impartiality, just enough impartiality to inform us). These people who voted leave yet can't give an example of a power we're regaining are probably among the most politically engaged. They'll be the types who will read every Mail or Sun article about Taking Our Country Back™ yet because these sources of information are providing them with absolutely no information at all that isn't just lies, then while being so politically engaged they're still completely misinformed about the thing the were crying out for a referendum about. Yet if anyone tells them how wrong they are they just dig their heel in in the manner that called did when O'Brien asked would it be better if each country could veto laws it didn't like, the caller says it would and then when O'Brien reveals that that's already the case the caller's position was unmoved.

Facts don't matter to these people unless they validate their feelings and it's because of attitudes and intellectual stubborness like this, to borrow a quote from one senior Tory recently, "this country is f*cked" and "when the public realize they have been sold a pup they will turn on the [Conservative] party."

And because I know there's no changing the minds of these people i've got many years of smugness in front of me as people like me are proven time and again to be right.

Edit: As a perfect example - Imagine if the right-wing press had spent their ink informing its readers that it isn't the EU that's forcing free movement on the UK but infact it's our own politicians who are choosing not to restrict free movement by enacting perfectly legal restrictions. http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk ... mmigration" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Devils_Advocate]

Remember when Romanian fruit pickers were the hot topic of the day.

[Jakubclaret]

Shouting YOU LOST, GET OVER IT and then punching themselves in the face every two minutes.

All the while paying £87 for a punnet of strawberries and £5.50 for a lettuce

Or simply buying a packet of multivitamins & leaving the fruit well alone.

[Blackrod]

We are flying plane loads of Romanians in to pick veg in the middle of a pandemic. Apparently they will all be checked. I wonder how conclusive these checks will be and whether they will go into quarantine first.

[CombatClaret]

We are flying plane loads of Romanians in to pick veg in the middle of a pandemic. Apparently they will all be checked. I wonder how conclusive these checks will be and whether they will go into quarantine first.

We should quarantine them by confining them to agricultural land away from a city center for at least 8 hours a day then minibus them back to their private shared accommodation.
And just to be sure close all the pubs and other social venues nearby.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Still coming over here taking our jobs!

[LeadBelly]

Germany has the same (who will harvest the fruit & veg?) problem. They usually have huge numbers of Poles & Romanians coming over their eastern/s eastern borders but there are border/travel restrictions this year. Its a big thing at the moment over there because it's spargel (asparagus) time and the Germans love their spargel (especially the white variety).
They're trying to get students to do the job (and fly in some Poles/Romanians).

When I were a lad (TM)....... students would often do some harvest picking in vacation to get some beer cash accumulated for term time- maybe the same will apply this year.

Hopefully we can get some local grown asparagus soon and then some Jersey Royals to follow; both a great springtime treat.

https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/st ... ge,Rw6M2ZN

[CombatClaret]

When I were a lad (TM)....... students would often do some harvest picking in vacation to get some beer cash accumulated for term time- maybe the same will apply this year.

James O'Brien doing an hour of this on LBC right now, makes the point location and travel is a huge factor here. Imported labour usual stay on site, the farms need you to start essentially at dawn.
So where is the public transport to these far flung rural sites, If you own a car and have to travel these expense of that will not make the job barely economically viable. Do you want to spent weeks in essentially a shared dorm for several weeks on nmw? I did it one summer When I were a lad (TM, you're cheque's in the mail) but only because I lived next to the farm.

The idea we'd fill this labour gap was always pie in the sky.

[Rileybobs]

I hope we do the right thing and offer British citizenship to these heroes when the crisis is over.

[TheFamilyCat]

I hope we do the right thing and offer British citizenship to these heroes when the crisis is over.

I'll be out on the street clapping for them.

[kentonclaret]

Be interesting to see how the students of today getting on with fruit and vegetable picking which is back breaking work for a very low wage.

With pickers flying in from Romania not so much "farm to fork" as "Bucharest to fork".

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

James O'Brien doing an hour of this on LBC right now, makes the point location and travel is a huge factor here. Imported labour usual stay on site, the farms need you to start essentially at dawn.
So where is the public transport to these far flung rural sites, If you own a car and have to travel these expense of that will not make the job barely economically viable. Do you want to spent weeks in essentially a shared dorm for several weeks on nmw? I did it one summer When I were a lad (TM, you're cheque's in the mail) but only because I lived next to the farm.

The idea we'd fill this labour gap was always pie in the sky.

Can’t be picky when it comes to work!

[SammyBoy]

One of my mates had to do several months picking broccoli in Australia in order to qualify for an additional years visa. He said after a few weeks he realised he didn't fancy another year in Australia enough to spend 10 hours a day picking broccoli which apparently grows on the ground, said his back was in agony

[dermotdermot]

Leave caller on James O'Brien yesterday.

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/j ... m=referral" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Things like this still make me weep with despair. Halfwits given a vote on something they have no idea about. Of course, we’ll be alright when we get rid of all these Muslims, renounce Europe and set up a multitude of trade deal with China. Oh..................wait a minute.... erm...........

[evensteadiereddie]

It's all worked out rather well.............

[jrgbfc]

There was never going to be enough people in this country willing to do that kind of work these days. Long, back-breaking days working outside in all weathers for relatively poor pay? Hopefully there's Eastern Europeans still willing to come over in future.

[CombatClaret]

Can’t be picky when it comes to work!

That's all very nice as a saying but doesn't really address the meta issues here.

There are jobs out there than could be applied for in bars, call centers, supermarkets etc which don't require you to live in very basic conditions in the middle of nowhere.
Even right now Lidl, Aldi etc are on a big recruitment drive to get the shelves filled each day and they are offering living wage, in a building probably not too far away from where you live so you can go home at the end of the day.

[thatdberight]

There was never going to be enough people in this country willing to do that kind of work these days.

Then, assuming they're physically fit, they should be allowed to starve.

[dermotdermot]

Can’t be picky when it comes to work!

I see what you did there.

[Spiral]

Can’t be picky when it comes to work!

Following that argument to its logical conclusion would, for example, place a demand on an unemployed woman unable to find work to take up prostitution. Factor in the viability of work (physical, geographic, economic) before demanding others carry out labour which provides you a comfortable life. Sure, you could argue she should be made to starve, but then the conversation becomes about the merits of the ways in which society is organised, what kind of safety nets we put in place, the right of a citizen to a modicum of dignity, and from that, the merits of law and the philosophical justification for a person to actually adhere to it. Society telling a person 'you should just die then' is the quickest way of ensuring a person lashes out against it, because society is working against them at that point. It's a matter of self preservation. Primal, base. If your value judgements about other people result in them being viewed as, or treated with the implied assumption that they're a drag on society, you can't be surprised if they drag you down with them. This isn't all abstract; there's a huge crime wave washing over southern Italy as we speak. The black economy is exploding.

[diamondpocket]

There's been a huge crime wave washing over Southern Italy for more than 100 years, pal. They are called the Mafia.

[Spiral]

There's been a huge crime wave washing over Southern Italy for more than 100 years, pal. They are called the Mafia.

No $hit, Sherlock, but since the onset of the pandemic, the lockdown, and a huge spike in unemployment, hijackings have risen and shops are taking to hiring security to guard their deliveries. In fact, the mafia has increasingly taken upon itself to fulfil community responsibilities (care to the elderly and infirm, food parcels) that are traditionally done by the state. If you believe crime syndicates increasingly supplanting the state in communities is something to shrug off, you're short-sighted.

[diamondpocket]

No $hit, Sherlock, but since the onset of the pandemic, the lockdown, and a huge spike in unemployment, hijackings have risen and shops are taking to hiring security to guard their deliveries. In fact, the mafia has increasingly taken upon itself to fulfil community responsibilities (care to the elderly and infirm, food parcels) that are traditionally done by the state. If you believe crime syndicates increasingly supplanting the state in communities is something to shrug off, you're short-sighted.

hahahah. The mafia has increasingly taken upon itself to fulfil community responsibilties. I'll repeat Sir, that is what it has been doing for more than 100 years serving the families, elderly, everyone who worked for them. Mafia isn't just a few drug smugglers and dealers, chief. Obviously, the pandemic isn't helping the situation there and will just feed in more criminality but the South of Italy has always been **** poor so nothing will change much there and not exactly a good example to highlight you point, whatever that is.

[ClaretAndJew]

hahahah. The mafia has increasingly taken upon itself to fulfil community responsibilties. I'll repeat Sir, that is what it has been doing for more than 100 years serving the families, elderly, everyone who worked for them. Mafia isn't just a few drug smugglers and dealers, chief. Obviously, the pandemic isn't helping the situation there and will just feed in more criminality but the South of Italy has always been **** poor so nothing will change much there and not exactly a good example to highlight you point, whatever that is.

Do you have in depth knowledge of the inner workings of the Cosa Nostra?

[Spiral]

hahahah. The mafia has increasingly taken upon itself to fulfil community responsibilties. I'll repeat Sir, that is what it has been doing for more than 100 years serving the families, elderly, everyone who worked for them. Mafia isn't just a few drug smugglers and dealers, chief. Obviously, the pandemic isn't helping the situation there and will just feed in more criminality but the South of Italy has always been **** poor so nothing will change much there and not exactly a good example to highlight you point, whatever that is.

My point is that desperation begets criminality, and so the argument 'let them starve' is utterly ridiculous.

[thatdberight]

My point is that desperation begets criminality, and so the argument 'let them starve' is utterly ridiculous.

So put in place a stricter penal code. For every "we need to be more liberal" argument, there's a simple counterpoint.

[Spiral]

So put in place a stricter penal code. For every "we need to be more liberal" argument, there's a simple counterpoint.

Hence why I posted that the argument becomes one about the philosophy of law and the rights of one person or group or people to dominate another person or group of people. You lean in favour of dominating through force (stricter punishment), I lean more in favour of a community (a country) pooling its resources where possible, lifting those who find themselves living under difficult circumstances, thus providing them greater liberty. I'm sure we each believe our own preferred approach to be more pragmatic than the other.

[thatdberight]

Hence why I posted that the argument becomes one about the philosophy of law and the rights of one person or group or people to dominate another person or group of people. You lean in favour of dominating through force (stricter punishment), I lean more in favour of a community (a country) pooling its resources where possible, lifting those who find themselves living under difficult circumstances, thus providing them greater liberty. I'm sure we each believe our own preferred approach to be more pragmatic than the other.

A rather unfair synopsis of both our points of view. I believe in the latter backed up by the former.

[diamondpocket]

Do you have in depth knowledge of the inner workings of the Cosa Nostra?

In-depth knowledge and first hand certainly not, no. But my girlfriend has lived in the South of Italy for a fair few years, is Italian and we know & have friends who also live there. There are also many books on the topic, including probably the best one by John Dickie that I've read a couple of times. I'm looking forward to doing a grand old tour of Sicily one day including some famous hotspots.

[Spiral]

A rather unfair synopsis of both our points of view. I believe in the latter backed up by the former.

Fair enough. Carrot vs stick. We both want the horse to move, I know that. I believe that more purposefully and effectively pursuing the latter dramatically reduces (if not entirely negates) the need for the former. Don't get me wrong, both are upheld by domination in some form (tax evasion being punishable) and are upheld by at their most basic level by a police and court system with the legitimacy to accost and apprehend a person.

But you're still wrong!!!

[thatdberight]

But you're still wrong!!!

I guess there's a first time for everything...

[Woodleyclaret]

Last Summer gang masters close to me in Woodley where shipping in van loads of women from Slough area to harvest veg early in the mornings
They were all paid cash in hand each day
This went on for several weeks till the field was cleared
The crops were cabbages and caulis