The development squad has to start working

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:50 am

Having to buy all your players in ready made is not really an option we can afford, somehow the recruitment of young players and progress into the first team has to be got to work but at present we appear miles away from that.

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:59 am

Do you think it happens overnight ? As somehow with access to all games at youth and development squad via your secret tv portal I thought you would have known this.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:02 am

Good Morning Abc.

In regards to your post, yes we do need the youth system and Development squad to start producing players for the first team, long term that cannot be denied.

Are you aware of the improvements made to the overall set up at Gawthorpe?
If you aren't could I suggest you trot off and have a read up about it, there are even some youtube videos that are excellent.

If you are aware, what sort of timescale do you think is acceptable for our shiny youth set up to start producing first team squad members?
1, 2, 5 or 10 yrs for example.

Are you able to produce some information comparing youth player production/graduation to first team across the PL and/or championship, so we can all see where we need to be?

Southampton's is generally considered to be one of the best outside of the top 6 clubs, but do you know how long it took them to set up their current system to how long it took to produce the first batch of players who could step up into the first team squad?
That would be a good bench mark to use in my opinion, or maybe Everton.

You could also have a look at Rovers and see how long it took from the creation of Brockhall youth set up to the appearance of a former youth player in the first team.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:04 am

Oh and how many players are you expecting per season?

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:24 am

Well the obvious fact is that we are no longer producing youth players of the quality needed at this level.
We did appear to be adopting a policy of buying in young players from other clubs to try and get around this problem, but there appears to be a huge reluctance to give them any opportunities to progress and since the signing of Agyei and Ginelly few other prospects appear to have arrived, certainly non appear to be pushing for places.

A club in our position needs to be producing 2-3 young players/ year who are challenging for first team action, and as the youth set-up is unlikely to produce players of that quality for several years these players need to be identified and purchased from elsewhere.
The fact that we are not buying young talent from Ireland and Scotland is strange. At present we are getting caught in bidding wars for average players of Championship quality at vastly inflated cost.
Unless we start identifying and bring on young players we will have wasted these Premier League years.
These are the years when we have the status to attract young players instead we appear to be going down the pathway of recruiting decent but not outstanding players, safeguarding our Championship future but not making us a force at the highest level.
Despite our success these in retrospect might be seen as wasted years when the opportunity to recruit quality youngsters meant that we failed to kick on.

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:33 am

ablueclaret wrote:Well the obvious fact is that we are no longer producing youth players of the quality needed at this level.
We did appear to be adopting a policy of buying in young players from other clubs to try and get around this problem, but there appears to be a huge reluctance to give them any opportunities to progress and since the signing of Agyei and Ginelly few other prospects appear to have arrived, certainly non appear to be pushing for places.

A club in our position needs to be producing 2-3 young players/ year who are challenging for first team action, and as the youth set-up is unlikely to produce players of that quality for several years these players need to be identified and purchased from elsewhere.
The fact that we are not buying young talent from Ireland and Scotland is strange. At present we are getting caught in bidding wars for average players of Championship quality at vastly inflated cost.
Unless we start identifying and bring on young players we will have wasted these Premier League years.
These are the years when we have the status to attract young players instead we appear to be going down the pathway of recruiting decent but not outstanding players, safeguarding our Championship future but not making us a force at the highest level.
Despite our success these in retrospect might be seen as wasted years when the opportunity to recruit quality youngsters meant that we failed to kick on.

Haven't we built a new training complex and recruited a new academy boss (Pepper?)? We've just gone up in category and to me, it's starting to look like we are doing the sort of things that you advocate.

There is no denying that we also seem to have stepped up our recruitment of promising youngsters - the names you mention being two examples.

There are positives to acknowledge as well you know.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:44 am

He doesn't acknowledge positives...

randomclaret2 · Post by **randomclaret2** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:48 am

We're having the most successful spell we've had for over 40 years, with the club in exceptional health in every way. All of this with no input from the " development" squad whatsoever. It would be nice for it to start producing.

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:01 am

He's right but it isn't going to happen overnight and it isn't going to be as easy as 'here's a new set up, get on with it'.

Southampton do produce gems but they don't have 4 of the biggest clubs in the Premier just 'down the road' with bigger bags of sweets.

It's still going to take a lot of hard work and time and even then we might get nobody good enough if we are still in this league.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:06 am

Well the opening post is correct, and applies to most (if not all) clubs.
in effect our whole squad is costing too much because we can't fill a few places with home grown players.
I guess we just have to wait and see if the new facility attracts a better quality of youngster.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:11 am

Just about everyone knows the problems the academy had for five years and anyone will know a rebuilding job takes time. And yet, we get this absolute nonsense of a thread from someone who

1. Thought Renny Smith was a star even though he'd never heard of him
2. Thinks James Tarkowski is a Premier League midfielder
3. Promised to clear off until July

I promised myself not to respond to any of his threads but even I thought he would actually do some research before posting this.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:16 am

If we are being fair, the progress the club have made on the pitch means the requirements of our academy have to adapt.

It needs to produce first team players who will contribute to our continuing success.

I've no idea how long that will take to bear fruition, but its something we've not had for decades now and I hope that the very long term funding is there for its ambitions to be realised.

ExistentialWanderer · Post by **ExistentialWanderer** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:23 am

I know we have a brand spanking new training facility and I am genuinely thrilled at the prospect of attracting and developing new talent. However, if abluclaret thinks that we're going to start producing quality talent straight off the back of a freshly open brand new complex, after our youth development had been neglected for years. He needs the tin of magic beans I got for my birthday more than I do!

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:24 am

The fact is nobody has been coming through the youth set-up and a club like ours needs that to happen.
The Board though they might be congratulated on many things allowed this situation to happen.
They partially recognised the situation when starting the development squad and recruiting players from other clubs but as yet the mechanism by which they progress to the first team has not been found.
Yes of course the provision of quality training facilities is a huge advancement but unless our recruitment process is improved it will become a white elephant.
The best training facilities in the world do not make great players that is an illusion, it is identifying and fostering talent which is the real issue.

And it is on this issue that I have my main concerns with SD. He is by nature a conservative thinker, a very successful conservative thinker but one who is very much risk averse, and bringing on young players is by its nature a risky venture so until we have a change in manager I do not see much chance that the development system will function.

Cleveleys_claret · Post by **Cleveleys_claret** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:29 am

At a guess I would say it will be 4/5 years before we start producing youngsters ready for the first team squad. Having already signed out 1st year scholars for this year I would think it will be next years that we see an improved standard on those young players seeing us as a viable option for their progression. They will be 16ish so a couple of years going through the age groups will hopefully see one or two ready for some sort of first team action at 19.

Other than a couple of the top 6/8 clubs who else produces 3 top class talents year in year out. Near impossible in this day and age sadly. The clubs that do have often bought them in too.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:33 am

Cleveleys_claret wrote:At a guess I would say it will be 4/5 years before we start producing youngsters ready for the first team squad. Having already signed out 1st year scholars for this year I would think it will be next years that we see an improved standard on those young players seeing us as a viable option for their progression. They will be 16ish so a couple of years going through the age groups will hopefully see one or two ready for some sort of first team action at 19.

Other than a couple of the top 6/8 clubs who else produces 3 top class talents year in year out. Near impossible in this day and age sadly. The clubs that do have often bought them in too.

Recruitment doesn't start at 16, it starts some ten years earlier than that. We've a hell of a lot of work to do and while building lower down we will have to continue to bring in players when and where we can at the older age groups. There are very few local lads coming in to the scholarship system this year.

Cleveleys_claret · Post by **Cleveleys_claret** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:34 am

Also has Dyche not given O Neill and Agyei a chance last season? Slowly having them around the 1st team squad, both getting playing time

Cleveleys_claret · Post by **Cleveleys_claret** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:39 am

ClaretTony wrote:Recruitment doesn't start at 16, it starts some ten years earlier than that. We've a hell of a lot of work to do and while building lower down we will have to continue to bring in players when and where we can at the older age groups. There are very few local lads coming in to the scholarship system this year.

No I understand that but surely over the next year we will start to see a shift at that age group. What I am trying to say is is that is the first contract they will properly sign where they arent just one of many from each school. Also those lads that them down the road will expect to have resign will probably defect and come to us with our improved structure and facilities. We see each year the difference between theirs and ours. They are bigger stronger faster.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:40 am

Yes I thought Renny Smith was a decent player, and although he hasn't progressed that far yet at least he has had the guts to pit his skills in Europe, good on him.
Yes I think Agyei is a good player who I would like to see have a chance.
Yes I think Tarka could do a job as a holding midfield player or as the attacking player in a back three he has more ball skills than some of our midfield.
Yes I said I would return in July but the SD will he won't he saga drew me out of senescence and then it was pointless to return.

As to Sidney's questions, for me the training facilities make life better for those at the club but it is identifying a recruiting young talent which is the first requirement something we have not been good at.
Yes being a Premier League side and having these facilities should give us greater drawing power so I'd expect results within 3 years if the recruitment system is really in place, if it is not then the wait will be longer.

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:41 am

If you expect results within 3 years is it fair to whinge on day 1 of the 3 year period ?

Cleveleys_claret · Post by **Cleveleys_claret** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:42 am

ClaretTony wrote:Recruitment doesn't start at 16, it starts some ten years earlier than that. We've a hell of a lot of work to do and while building lower down we will have to continue to bring in players when and where we can at the older age groups. There are very few local lads coming in to the scholarship system this year.

Also I never said recruitment starts at 16 anywhere in my post. I was just using that age group which is the next in line to show that it could be 4 years before we even to start to see anyone coming through

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:42 am

The long-term solution is probably too long-term.
It is the development squad which is our best chance at present and identifying and bringing in young players from other clubs.
Start eyeing up players at Leeds for starters

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:45 am

Nothing is "too long term" as long as it provides players for Burnley FC.

Leeds are an excellent example of providing a steady stream of v.good players and that is what we have to aim for.

FulledgeClaret · Post by **FulledgeClaret** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:45 am

Our youth set up has worked perfectly the last few years, we had a L1 L2 standard set up and we produced that standard of player but we were playing higher than that so unless we got lucky with a local lad who wanted to play for Burnley we were never going to unearth players of top end championship premier league standard add the fact that under Howe the youth set up was pretty much forgotten about I don't think it has done too bad to produce anyone above non league standard. Now we have a better set up we should start too see a better standard of player coming through but as some have said it will be 4 or 5 yrs before we really see anyone come through the new and improved academy, its not like champ manager where upgrading the youth academy also includes instantly better players.

Cleveleys_claret · Post by **Cleveleys_claret** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:46 am

ablueclaret wrote:The long-term solution is probably too long-term.
It is the development squad which is our best chance at present and identifying and bringing in young players from other clubs.
Start eyeing up players at Leeds for starters

So we get round to the point of your post which is to sign Jack Vann.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:47 am

Look we have been in and about the Premier League for a number of years now and have done nothing until this year to build a youth side, we briefly recruited strongly for the development squad but by and large other than the recent facility improvement have failed to address the most important thing we needed to do ie recruitment, retention and development of young players, I see no sign of this being a major feature of this window either, but I hope to be proved wrong.

Cleveleys_claret · Post by **Cleveleys_claret** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:49 am

Claret Tony - I am not 100% up on the signing of 1st team scholars like I mentioned but if we were to sign a player from them down the road on 1st team scholar terms would they be due any monies for having them on thier books from lets say age 8?

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:49 am

No Jack Venn was just an illustration and a player I only know through friends, but with our stars we should be able to attract players from other sides not have them always stolen from us.

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:52 am

ablueclaret wrote:Look we have been in and about the Premier League for a number of years now and have done nothing until this year to build a youth side, we briefly recruited strongly for the development squad but by and large other than the recent facility improvement have failed to address the most important thing we needed to do ie recruitment, retention and development of young players, I see no sign of this being a major feature of this window either, but I hope to be proved wrong.

We have been in the Premier League for 3 season

First season - cleared all debts and bought the ground back

Second season - paid for the new training ground and built a squad that helped win the Championship and then stay up in the Premier League

third season - funds now mainly for transfers

If you are proved wrong have you ever admitted it ?

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:53 am

Of course their is a long-term solution but it is by its very definition long-term, possibly 10 years, and we should go down that route indeed there are signs we are, but in the meantime we need to make use of our status to attract young players from other sides, something we briefly appeared to be doing.
We have to make use of these windows of power to secure our long-term future and I don't see much sign we are doing so.

Cleveleys_claret · Post by **Cleveleys_claret** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:53 am

ablueclaret wrote:Look we have been in and about the Premier League for a number of years now and have done nothing until this year to build a youth side, we briefly recruited strongly for the development squad but by and large other than the recent facility improvement have failed to address the most important thing we needed to do ie recruitment, retention and development of young players, I see no sign of this being a major feature of this window either, but I hope to be proved wrong.

Here is where your argument falls down. Before this adventure we never had players anywhere near good enough at any level. We now have a batch that can play at some sort of level in the pyramid. We were never going to sign 11 superstars from the get go. What we need to do is improve on what we have year upon year. Like the first team I expect to see familiar results in time.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:57 am

We have not made use of those years to recruit young talent in fact we did better when we were in the Championship
Of course part of the reason for that were the signings OC made where young players didn't go on to prosper, that appears to have left a long shadow over our recruitment dealings.

We need to be bold if we are to progress, not hankering after the security of proven pros.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:59 am

No we have several years of a malfunctioning youth policy and a lack of commitment to bringing in young talent.
Identifying ones weaknesses is as important as celebrating ones strengths.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:02 am

ablueclaret wrote:No we have several years of a malfunctioning youth policy and a lack of commitment to bringing in young talent.

Five years to be exact because we allowed it to be run by someone who wasn't suitable in any way shape or form and then allowed him to continue for as long as he did.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:07 am

Yes and that is a Board issue, and sadly it coincided with our best opportunity to recruit.

Hopefully we will move on but it has cost us.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:11 am

ClaretTony wrote:Five years to be exact because we allowed it to be run by someone who wasn't suitable in any way shape or form and then allowed him to continue for as long as he did.

To be fair, Tony, it wasn't going absolutely brilliantly before that, was it?

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:12 am

ablueclaret wrote:Yes and that is a Board issue, and sadly it coincided with our best opportunity to recruit.

Hopefully we will move on but it has cost us.

We have moved on - we've got better people in, we've got a better environment, even the youth team has a coach again. But it takes time. The people responsible for Blake and his mates coming in and staying in are now gone.

IWOODLOVETT · Post by **IWOODLOVETT** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:42 am

Abc didn't you have a post deleted last week that urged Dyche to go out and spend big on ready-made players? Directly the opposite view to your latest garbage.
My answer (before it was pulled) was this.

As an allotment owner you will know that to grow things slowly and steadily will produce quality and to save money.
As a tandem bike rider you will know that a hastily bought, expensive accessory will sometimes upset the balance of a well-oiled machine.
As a sufferer from piles you will know how annoying an irritating @rsehole can be.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:13 am

I was told last week if you join a football academy you have a 17k to one chance of making it. It's obviously very tough bringing even the best kids through.

You would expect a little more success from youth players we have paid a fee for though.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:15 am

How the **** can you see anything from Wiltshire in regards to the youth set up when you've never seen the place or the young players in a match?
You're dicking about whining about a long term project ffs.

claretabroad · Post by **claretabroad** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:27 am

2-3 players a year is an unrealistic target. As has already been mentioned I doubt there are any premier league or championship teams who produce that many. I'm not denying that we don't produce enough home grown players but a more realistic target would be one a year and it is going to take some time before that goal is achievable. Our league position has outgrown our youth setup by a considerable margin and despite all the work on our youth facilities it is going to take several years before it catches up. Until then, the strategy of buying players for the development squad is probably the most effective strategy.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:29 am

You don't need to participate to see what happens. Leonardo always believed it important to consider the ideas of those who criticised his work, whether they were artist or not, he was a wise man.

The set -up we have had during the past few years has been focused on bringing success by buying ready made players in, and it has had its success. I fancy at this point we are struggling more, and that is in part because we have not adopted a policy that many on here have been crying for for years, that is a scouting network that is capable of bringing in young talent. For those few brief weeks whilst MacParland was here it looked as if we had bit the bullet but the focus since appears to have forsaken that agenda.

Those who believe we have got it right at present have a case to argue all I am saying that from my perspective we have missed an opportunity, and yes I did say go in for Robertson and Taylor because left sided young players are worth their weight in gold. Shame we aren't able to bring them on ourselves or recruit them when they are younger and less expensive.

Yes it is a criticism of the club but one I have been making for many years. I have always felt we got confused between a youth policy and a buying policy and whilst our youth set-up was so weak we had to recruit from other sides, but for us getting that young players system in place is vital particularly when we fall back which we will.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:32 am

When 2/3 players a year is mentioned its likely it will be those same 2/3 players over 2/3 years in other words we have pressing for 1st team places at least three youngsters, that must be the minimum expectation.

randomclaret2 · Post by **randomclaret2** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:41 am

Coming soon , ABC on why the poor appearance of the exterior cladding on the Bob Lord has rendered our 4 Premier League seasons irrelevent.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:20 pm

Quite the opposite Random what I am saying is those seasons and the promotion ones have meant we have been in the spotlight and if we had had the personnel in place recruitment of young talent should have been easier, sadly we haven't made the best use of our rise in status and at present don't even appear particularly interested in that agenda.

Young player recruitment (by that I mean up to 23) is in my opinion vital for our long term and not so long term progress.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:27 pm

I think hes right, the only problem is the first team success doesn't allow us to blood youngsters. Everton for example can put youngsters in because they can afford to give up points.

randomclaret2 · Post by **randomclaret2** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:06 pm

I've heard it all now...

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:15 pm

claretabroad wrote:2-3 players a year is an unrealistic target. As has already been mentioned I doubt there are any premier league or championship teams who produce that many. I'm not denying that we don't produce enough home grown players but a more realistic target would be one a year and it is going to take some time before that goal is achievable. Our league position has outgrown our youth setup by a considerable margin and despite all the work on our youth facilities it is going to take several years before it catches up. Until then, the strategy of buying players for the development squad is probably the most effective strategy.

highly unlikely to do better than one per season.
However, I think I'm right in stating that Middlesboro once fielded an entirely home-grown 11 in the PL.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:23 pm

We need competitive matches
Not played behind closed doors.
An influx of others talent.
At least two getting a chance in the 1st team squad.

If after 3 years it isn't working maybe abandon the idea.

randomclaret2 · Post by **randomclaret2** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:26 pm

They're in a League this season...haven't you heard ?