Trevor Bayliss

Papabendi · Post by **Papabendi** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:58 pm

Time some serious questions are asked about this guy. England are going backwards, certainly in Test cricket...still haven't one a major 50 over tournament and we are now looking at the weakest batting line up in years.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:03 pm

Should have stuck to wind-up radios

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:34 pm

Top sport is all about players. The coach can only put the gloss on them.
Currently we are struggling for top order batsmen. Might be a blessing if that Oz strike carries on through the Winter.

Braindead · Post by **Braindead** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:43 pm

Not sure how Bayliss can be blamed for a lack of top four talented English batsmen. Jennings, Hales, Ballance, Compton, Hameed etc all tried and failed. Aside from Roots brilliant 190 in the first test, both him and Cook, the two veterans in the top four, have also failed to get runs consistently in this series.

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:45 pm

Braindead wrote:Not sure how Bayliss can be blamed for a lack of top four talented English batsmen. Jennings, Hales, Ballance, Compton, Hameed etc all tried and failed. Aside from Roots brilliant 190 in the first test, both him and Cook, the two veterans in the top four, have also failed to get runs consistently in this series.

Hameed hardly given a decent chance

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:50 pm

joey13 wrote:Hameed hardly given a decent chance

Nor did he fail.

Shame he was injured but his form for Lancs this year has not warranted a test place.

I'm sure he'll come good again.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:55 pm

Braindead wrote:Not sure how Bayliss can be blamed for a lack of top four talented English batsmen. Jennings, Hales, Ballance, Compton, Hameed etc all tried and failed. Aside from Roots brilliant 190 in the first test, both him and Cook, the two veterans in the top four, have also failed to get runs consistently in this series.

Reasonable point, but one assumes that he has a big say in selection, and there have been serious selection issues this series, (Even though we won the first test).
e.g. Jennings having a poor season in Div 2, Ballance having previously proved technically incapable of being a test No. 3 was restored to the team ahead of others who deserved a chance, Dawson selected as a 2nd spinner at Trent Bridge despite the proven frailty of our batting suggesting we could play an extra batter.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:56 pm

[quote="TheFamilyCat"

Shame he was injured but his form for Lancs this year has not warranted a test place.
.[/quote]
True but you could say the same of Jennings.

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:10 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:[quote="TheFamilyCat"

Shame he was injured but his form for Lancs this year has not warranted a test place.
.

True but you could say the same of Jennings.[/quote]

I don't keep up to date with county cricket really other than Lancs so not really in a position to comment on the merits of anyone's selection, just thought that Hameed had been judged harshly as 'tried and failed'.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:14 pm

Hameed did well for England but struggling since the injury at county level and rightly left out - but Jennings looks nowhere near good enough to me, I can't for the life of me understand why Ballance is back in and Bairstow, right now, looks a long way short of test level. His wicket this afternoon is downright shocking.

CleggHall · Post by **CleggHall** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:26 pm

Agreed selectors could be busy - replacements needed for Jennings, Ballance, Dawson and Wood.

BurnleyPaul · Post by **BurnleyPaul** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:29 pm

Balance is back because Root wants him there.... #NotWhatYouKnowButWhoYouKnow

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:32 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Hameed did well for England but struggling since the injury at county level and rightly left out - but Jennings looks nowhere near good enough to me, I can't for the life of me understand why Ballance is back in and Bairstow, right now, looks a long way short of test level. His wicket this afternoon is downright shocking.

As was Ali's

RocketLawnChair · Post by **RocketLawnChair** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:44 pm

Ballance maybe technically inept to some but on the county circuit he has blown the rest out of the water this summer with the amount of runs he has scored, At the level below the test arena he has consistently proven himself to be the best we have, unfortunately !

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:44 pm

joey13 wrote:As was Ali's

Horrendous

Papabendi · Post by **Papabendi** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:48 pm

Braindead wrote:Not sure how Bayliss can be blamed for a lack of top four talented English batsmen. Jennings, Hales, Ballance, Compton, Hameed etc all tried and failed. Aside from Roots brilliant 190 in the first test, both him and Cook, the two veterans in the top four, have also failed to get runs consistently in this series.

If that's the case the ECB need not recruit and pay handsomely for foreign management. We have gone backwards under this chap. He's completely anonymous and it is pretty clear his spotting and selection of Test batsman and also the make up of the team (too many all rounders) leaves a lot to be desired.

LeadBelly · Post by **LeadBelly** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:53 pm

Bayliss was appointed early summer 2015 when (if Ive researched correctly) England were ranked 5th in tests; 6th ODIs; 8th T20; overall a generally low point.
England are now 4th, 4th, 2nd in the three formats.

There's evidence of a general improvement there, especially in T20. However, it could be said that England should be top3 in all formats at any point- given the resources they have.

South Africa are ranked 2nd in the test match arena so you would expect a tight series here & the ease of England's 1st test win was a bit surprising.

This 2nd test has been disappointing; we are struggling to find lower order batsmen + the established batters (Cook, Root, Bairstow) haven't hit full potential. At the same time, the bowling hasn't been at its best (Wood & Dawson have 1 wicket between them whilst going for around 3 1/2 an over).

Bayliss & Root will have to show some mettle as coach/skipper to pull things round for The Oval 3rd test. I hope they do- Ive got tickets for days 1 and 2.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:55 pm

Our top 3 is probably the weakest in test cricket at the moment. I hate to agree with Shane Warne but they don't offer anything positive. Cook plodding on is fine but not the top 3.

To win in Australia we need to be capable of scoring 500 in a first innings and we seem a long way from that.

Papabendi · Post by **Papabendi** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:06 pm

[quote="LeadBelly"]Bayliss was appointed early summer 2015 when (if Ive researched correctly) England were ranked 5th in tests; 6th ODIs; 8th T20; overall a generally low point.
England are now 4th, 4th, 2nd in the three formats.

Tallest midget stuff in a way isn't it. The one day resurgence had already started under Farbrace. We are taking some alarming hammerings in the Test arena and it is getting worse not better with a lot of the players looking ill equipped to deal with it.

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:08 pm

A big problem for Bayliss is he doesn't watch county cricket.

He has admitted to not watching Jennings or Stoneman before this series started so couldn't judge either. Just seen one comment tweeted that normally there are 90 overs in a day, we have been bowled out twice in just over 95 overs.

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:23 pm

All of the talk beforehand was of England's fine record at Trent Bridge but after an embarrassing defeat Root now says that SA adapted to the conditions better than England. Blame the pitch what a surprise!

Keaton Jennings was dropped on nought In Mumbai and went on to make a hundred. In the second innings he was out for a duck.After the Test finished he was hailed as the next coming but has now been exposed as average.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:35 pm

RocketLawnChair wrote:Ballance maybe technically inept to some but on the county circuit he has blown the rest out of the water this summer with the amount of runs he has scored, At the level below the test arena he has consistently proven himself to be the best we have, unfortunately !

Ballance is technically flawed. There have been many batters over the years who are good at bullying mediocre bowling at county level, but are not up to test level. His prolific form for Yorkshire masks the fact that his technique is poor, and - perhaps - discourages him from going back to basics and developing a technique that will allow him to go up a level. It's arguable that if he had less success at County level, then he might ultimately become a better batter.
There have been a lot of players in the Lancashire League who score runs almost for fun, but move them up to County level and they struggle. Moving from County to International level is arguably an even bigger step. There a far fewer bad balls to hit, and most likely the bowling will be consistently good all day, whereas you don't come across many Morkels, Philanders, or Rabadas at County level, and certainly not all bowling in the same side.
The players who establish themselves long term at Test level are the ones with a good technique, not the flat-track bullies who can pulverise an average county attack.

CleggHall · Post by **CleggHall** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:46 pm

Test match cricket should be a 5 day marathon contest but England attempt it with sprinters and middle-distance runners. Our test record recently has been very poor and Bayliss should seriously consider his position. Gillespie would be a much better bet.

Silkyskills1 · Post by **Silkyskills1** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:21 pm

Only thinking yesterday there can't be many times that a side has declared their second innings before the end of the 3rd day. Strange series so far with monumental collapses from both teams.

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:25 pm

Too many players obsessed with trying to smash every out of the ground. You'd think with the clue in the title of 'test cricket' they'd think of different ways of trying to bat.

Test match special mentioned how rare it has been recently for England to draw a test.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:30 pm

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote:Too many players obsessed with trying to smash every out of the ground. You'd think with the clue in the title of 'test cricket' they'd think of different ways of trying to bat.

Test match special mentioned how rare it has been recently for England to draw a test.

I was in Ireland during our first innings and saw nothing of it but I was keeping an eye on the score. I was amazed that, after falling to 3/2, we scored so quickly after that. Ballance 27 from 37 balls, Root 78 from 76 and Bairstow 45 from 81 when you'd expect us to get our heads down and consolidate.

RocketLawnChair · Post by **RocketLawnChair** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:42 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Ballance is technically flawed. There have been many batters over the years who are good at bullying mediocre bowling at county level, but are not up to test level. His prolific form for Yorkshire masks the fact that his technique is poor, and - perhaps - discourages him from going back to basics and developing a technique that will allow him to go up a level. It's arguable that if he had less success at County level, then he might ultimately become a better batter.
There have been a lot of players in the Lancashire League who score runs almost for fun, but move them up to County level and they struggle. Moving from County to International level is arguably an even bigger step. There a far fewer bad balls to hit, and most likely the bowling will be consistently good all day, whereas you don't come across many Morkels, Philanders, or Rabadas at County level, and certainly not all bowling in the same side.
The players who establish themselves long term at Test level are the ones with a good technique, not the flat-track bullies who can pulverise an average county attack.

The point is correct nil but name the batsmen ?, they just aren't there. If they were they would be in. The structure in place is to reward the top county performers and Balance is some way ahead unfortunately as I said.

We have too many average county teams a regionalised tournament of 6 teams feeding the England squad would be far better. We have 18 teams full of bang average players many of them journeymen cricketers of which many of them don't even qualify to play for England. McLaren and Vilas at Lancs are prime examples waste of a wage and a place.

Braindead · Post by **Braindead** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:43 pm

ClaretTony wrote:I was in Ireland during our first innings and saw nothing of it but I was keeping an eye on the score. I was amazed that, after falling to 3/2, we scored so quickly after that. Ballance 27 from 37 balls, Root 78 from 76 and Bairstow 45 from 81 when you'd expect us to get our heads down and consolidate.

Therein lies the problem, there is no steady accumulation of runs anymore, you know that if you tie the top/middle order down for a few overs that eventually they will lose the plot and try and take the bowlers on. Look at Bairstow today, second over after lunch, four wickets down for 80 odd and what does he do? Waltzes down the track to the spinner and lofts it straight to mid on.
I am all for attractive shot making and aggressive run scoring, but not when we are stuck needing to save the game.
Too little emphasis is placed on the steady, watchful accumulation of runs nowadays, which is why test match cricket is a dying art.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:51 pm

RocketLawnChair wrote:The point is correct nil but name the batsmen ?, they just aren't there. If they were they would be in. The structure in place is to reward the top county performers and Balance is some way ahead unfortunately as I said.

We have too many average county teams a regionalised tournament of 6 teams feeding the England squad would be far better. We have 18 teams full of bang average players many of them journeymen cricketers of which many of them don't even qualify to play for England. McLaren and Vilas at Lancs are prime examples waste of a wage and a place.

I don't disagree with that, but my point would be that we would be better off trying someone like Borthwick or Stoneman (just to mention 2), and see how they adapt, rather than bringing someone back who has already been discarded more than once because of his failings. IMO it's better that a young or new player comes in and struggles but learns, rather than keep going back to someone like Ballance.

ashtonlongsider · Post by **ashtonlongsider** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:15 pm

Very embarrassing batting collapse (again). Can see Jennings and Balance (how many more chances) being replaced before the Oval test. I'd like to see Moeen Ali open with Cook but James Vince could be an alternative. I'd also like to see Ian Bell brought back. One of the few class batsmen we have.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:23 pm

He's a bit unorthodox, but Hales seemed to be improving at Test level before he opted out of the tour. He's been in decent form, and should come into contention. Ali has already been tried as opener and looked ill- suited to the role.

Stevie2112 · Post by **Stevie2112** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:23 pm

Doubt Vince would be up to it either,although I was surprised when Stoneman didn't get a call up.

CleggHall · Post by **CleggHall** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:37 pm

I've watched Stoneman and Jennings at Durham for 4/5 years, Rocky Stoneman a far better player, Jennings has had 2 good seasons, 2 very poor ones, whilst Stoneman has continued to improve at Surrey. In their cases the statistics don't lie.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:19 pm

Braindead wrote:Therein lies the problem, there is no steady accumulation of runs anymore, you know that if you tie the top/middle order down for a few overs that eventually they will lose the plot and try and take the bowlers on. Look at Bairstow today, second over after lunch, four wickets down for 80 odd and what does he do? Waltzes down the track to the spinner and lofts it straight to mid on.
I am all for attractive shot making and aggressive run scoring, but not when we are stuck needing to save the game.
Too little emphasis is placed on the steady, watchful accumulation of runs nowadays, which is why test match cricket is a dying art.

If Root and Cook don't score big England have no-one else capable of batting for a full day of test cricket shot-making is great but occupying the crease wearing down the bowlers is a major art in test matches.Perfect example in the 1st innings England going fairly well at 140-3 Morkel probably in the last over off his spell instead of using their his experience and playing the over out Root attacks and gives his wicket away and this changes the dynamic of the test,English batsman don't trust themshelves to bat for long periods whether this is a technical issue or a psychological one i don't know but it needs addressing quickly,the warning signs were there in the 1st test but for a poor review and a couple of dropped catches and sloppy no-balls from South Africa England could have been skittled for around 200 then.

Cheshireclaret · Post by **Cheshireclaret** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:43 pm

I think it was Aggers who said on TMS this evening that time was, if you were 292/4 at the end of day one, you'd be really pleased with that, but those days seem long gone, especially as far as England are concerned as we attempt to race to an enormous score as quickly as possible and invariably end up with a score that wouldn't befit a T20 innings.

Only one word to describe today - shambolic.

RocketLawnChair · Post by **RocketLawnChair** » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:20 am

All the expert pundits have now been asked their expert opinion. Everyone of them as told us whose not good enough not much coming the other way though. The one name constantly mentioned though is Stoneman, IMO Another good county cricketer but trust me he's no better than what's already in there.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:02 pm

ClaretTony wrote:I was in Ireland during our first innings and saw nothing of it but I was keeping an eye on the score. I was amazed that, after falling to 3/2, we scored so quickly after that. Ballance 27 from 37 balls, Root 78 from 76 and Bairstow 45 from 81 when you'd expect us to get our heads down and consolidate.

I was at the test match on Saturday and despite Roots fast scoring rate he wasn't over aggressive, he just has the natural talent of being a busy player. A joy to watch.
Despite being on the wrong end result wise, it was a fascinating days play with the bowlers way on top. We were right behind the bowlers arm and it was hooping about.
Certainly got our moneys worth with Jimmy picking 5 wickets up in the day and Root scoring his 78.

Trent Bridge is a lovely Test Ground.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:00 pm

Squad named for the Oval

Squad: Joe Root (Yorkshire, capt), Moeen Ali (Worcestershire), James Anderson (Lancashire), Jonathan Bairstow (Yorkshire), Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire), Alastair Cook (Essex), Liam Dawson (Hampshire), Keaton Jennings (Durham), Dawid Malan (Middlesex), Toby Roland-Jones (Middlesex), Ben Stokes (Durham), Tom Westley (Essex), Mark Wood (Durham)

Melbourneclaret · Post by **Melbourneclaret** » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:22 pm

Stoneman should be in. Consistently playing well for his county

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:50 pm

No Rashid again bonkers, good to see the Middlesex boys called up but will they make the 11.