Centre Back Speculation

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:08 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:Of course there is, but we're a Premier League club which needs Premier League players.

The brilliant central defender we've just sold for a huge profit wasn't signed from the Championship, he was signed from one of the biggest clubs in the world. We need to stop shopping in the bargain bin in the hope of getting lucky, we need to have a look at the tens of millions profit we have in the bank and go shopping properly.

The problem with this argument is that it's arguing against the signings of Heaton, Arfield, Ward, Hendricks, Gray, Vokes, Barnes, and even Boyd.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:10 am

We signed the vast majority of those players as a Championship team. They were players for that level.

We are at Premier League level now.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:13 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:We signed the vast majority of those players as a Championship team. They were players for that level.

We are at Premier League level now.

I don't see Heaton as just a Championship level player. He may have been signed in the Championship, but even if he'd been signed just last summer, I would still have called him a good signing.

HiroshimaClaret · Post by **HiroshimaClaret** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:13 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:You are wrong. We signed him as a Premier League club

I stand corrected!

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:15 am

dsr wrote:I don't see Heaton as just a Championship level player. He may have been signed in the Championship, but even if he'd been signed just last summer, I would still have called him a good signing.

Yes, so Heaton was an excellent player playing below his level, as per my previous post. He learned his trade at, you guessed it, one of the biggest clubs in the world.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:21 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:Yes, so Heaton was an excellent player playing below his level, as per my previous post. He learned his trade at, you guessed it, one of the biggest clubs in the world.

As did Roche and Chadwick. Having been at Man United is no guarantee of success; having not been at United is no guarantee of failure.

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:23 am

dsr wrote:As did Roche and Chadwick. Having been at Man United is no guarantee of success; having not been at United is no guarantee of failure.

Don't forget Neil Wood either another with a glorious beginning.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:28 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:Better to sign excellent players playing below their true level than average players playing at their best.

But that was it, he wasn't seen as an excellent player. He was seen as just another player who United discard on a regular basis.

Can you provide evidence to show that we knew we were getting a fantastic player in the making?

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:31 am

Having been at Man United in the early 2000s isn't a guarantee of success, no. Having been there since has been a pretty good measure though: Pique, Pogba, Keane, Heaton, Rashford, Welbeck, Rossi, King, Brady, Zieler etc

Edit to add on a World Cup winning goalkeeper

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:34 am

Everton and Southampton keep getting linked with CHs around the 10-12 million mark, hopefully we are scouting the same ones.

Long Time Lurker · Post by **Long Time Lurker** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:47 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:A fit Smalling would be a step up from Keane for me.

Keane could well keep improving and go beyond Smalling but at this time I would take Smalling any day of the week.

I wouldn't be entirely happy if we signed Smalling. Not because of his playing contribution, although it can be sporadic at times, but because he could arrive with the expectation of guaranteed playing time. I don't think we want to be in a position where any of the players view a slot as being theirs because of anything other than performance.

To his greater credit Tarks has consistently shown his commitment to the club and demonstrated a very high level of professionalism in the way he has handled his time in waiting. He also happens to be a very good player with untapped potential that could be released with more playing time. Not giving him a crack at the spot would be unthinkable and it could also be bad for the morale of the team. Everyone appreciates fair play and Tarks has more than earned his shot at the CB position.

I'm not overly convinced about Smallings fighting spirit either. Leaving behind the bright lights and big city comfort of the Man Utd first team to join a committed band of take no prisoners warriors that are relishing a mid table scrap could require the need for a massive adjustment on his part. A demand that could make him or break him, providing his wage demands don't break us first.

Smalling is a very good player that could do very well for us, providing we can afford him. His success would probably hinge on how badly he wants to be that success and how ready he is to embrace the demands associated with playing for us.

I don't think we would benefit from bringing in any established high flying prima donnas who might have grandiose expectations. We need players with something to prove or players with a hunger to develop further. Players that don't exhibit a wide gulf between what we already have in our team, as it relates to their current ability and immediate wants. The type of player that will firmly grasp the opportunity to develop and improve or give everything they've got to maintain their position.

Those are the types of qualities that could equate to a competitive and constructive dynamic that will benefit the team. Whether the players we bring in are old or young we definitely need fighters not fairies, the solid feet on the ground over the head in the clouds types. We already have one tear stained damp patch in the parking lot from our loan intake last season and that is more than enough.

Long Time Lurker · Post by **Long Time Lurker** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:54 am

I like Dawson and I think he would make a very good addition to the squad. He is a solid option with a great deal of premiership experience. His set piece talents are a bonus. I still think Engels would be a better fit for us though. Mee showed a lot of improvement in his distribution last season, but he isn't as comfortable playing the ball as someone like Keane. He has the heart of a lion, but that do or die in your face courage can sometimes lead to him making the odd mistake. It seems to be part and parcel of the whole Mee package and I wouldn't change a thing about him. He is a great player and we should always consider ourselves very lucky to have him. We are lucky to have all of our players.

However, to partner his strengths and provide us with a cohesive back two that work effectively together I think we need a replacement more in the Keane mould. Somebody with good positional sense, a cool head and the ability to play out from the back. Someone like Engels. Having a similar type of player to Keane next to him would allow Mee to transfer a lot of his experience from that past partnership directly to a new one. I think Dawson is closer to Mee in his playing style and the qualities he would bring to the squad, a talented battler who will give his all to protect our goal no matter what the cost. Playing alongside a different type of player might make it more difficult for Mee to form a new partnership quickly and we could lose out on the complimentary synergy that made Mee and Keane so effective together.

Attracting a player like Engels in the face of possible interest from other clubs won't be easy. The recruitment team would have to play a blinder and the board would certainly have to sign off and release quite a bit of our dry powder. However, I think in his case we have a lot going for us and I don't think he is beyond the reaches of reasonably attainable.

With the opportunity to develop under the tutelage of Sean and the coaching team, signing up and establishing himself as a Premier League player at Super Burnley could be the second best thing to happen to him this year (the first being the birth of his new son Jack). With everything that we can offer it could be the perfect move for player and club. We also have the successful Vossen transfer with Club Brugge in our favour, a Belgian international already at the club in the revitalised form of Defour and Bjorn is already aware of us if the reports about his telly viewing in the Belgian HLN newspaper are accurate.

When asked by HLN what makes the Premier League so special for him, Engels explained: “Take West Brom against Burnley. The stadium is packed and it’s ‘go’ from the first to the last minute. Fantastic. The atmosphere, the interviews, analysis… I have at home a ‘box’ and can follow all channels: Sky Sports, ITV, FOX Sports.”

With their plans for a stunning new stadium and a youth academy Club Brugge is definitely a club that is looking at moving forward. In that respect they are very similar to us and strengthening our association with them in the form of another successful transfer could bode well for the future, if we where to ever consider a formal partnership with a progressive European club. You know, for better European scouting knowledge, opportunities for inter club loans and what not.

The ageism sometimes shown on the boards isn't a huge deal for me. Making a profit on the future resale value of a player like Dawson is very unlikely. However, the loss of money in association with any future resale value shouldn't be taken as a primary concern, unless we are talking about a BIG money transfer with BIG wages. It can be viewed as a business write off, an acceptable long term loss that is being made to give us the best possible chance of survival in the immediate future. The financial returns for staying up will be more than enough to cover a projected loss of that nature.

If we don't stay up (even though I firmly believe that we will) then we will dust ourselves off and set about the challenge of securing an immediate return with the benefit of a player who is less likely to leave when the drop down vultures begin to circle. On the other hand, if we could pick up someone like Engels for 10-15 mil we would have a strong player for the present and future who could easily rise in value on the back of a solid year in the premiership and command a very dramatic increase in his potential transfer value.

Looking at things from a purely financial standpoint bringing in a younger player like Engels would represent the best option, but it definitely shouldn't be viewed as the only viable option. I find it a bit difficult to understand people who can't see the value of considering the age of a player as one piece in a larger puzzle, which would allow them to focus on what we need to get the job done in terms of both our on the pitch performance and overall club progression.

When all is said and done if we bring in a player that can challenge for a first team spot, and they are prepared to knuckle down and put in a shift, I couldn't give a flying fig how old they are. I don't want a young team and I don't want an old team I want a good team that will do us proud.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:55 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:Having been at Man United in the early 2000s isn't a guarantee of success, no. Having been there since has been a pretty good measure though: Pique, Pogba, Keane, Heaton, Rashford, Welbeck, Rossi, King, Brady, Zieler etc

Edit to add on a World Cup winning goalkeeper

I suspect those aren't the only players that have been released. If you look back from 2010-2015 at players released unwanted, or sold cheap, by United - how many of them have reached Keane's and Heaton's level?

You're right that we want to sign players who are better than the level they are at. Where you're wrong is assuming that only Premier League reserves meet the criterion - there are certainly players in the Championship who are Premier league standard.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:56 am

dsr wrote:there are certainly players in the Championship who are Premier league standard.

Name them.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:00 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:Name them.

Why?

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:02 pm

Because you've made a pretty bold statement. Back it up.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:04 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:Name them.

Alfie Mawson was playing for Barnsley before going to Swansea.

Steve Cook, for example played for Bournemouth in the lower leagues before becoming a regular at PL level.

Long Time Lurker · Post by **Long Time Lurker** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:07 pm

Ryan Fredericks, but we are sorted at right back.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:08 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:Because you've made a pretty bold statement. Back it up.

A bold statement?

I don't know who the Championship's best players are. But I will confidently predict, with absolute certainty, that if you take a look two years into the future and look at all the players who played in the Premier League 2017-18 and 2018-19, that we will find players who are currently in the Championship.

If you doubt it, look back at summer 2015 - have any players who were in the Championship then made a career in the Premier?

I don't think it's a bold statement at all.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:25 pm

dsr wrote: If you doubt it, look back at summer 2015 - have any players who were in the Championship then made a career in the Premier?

Top scorers in the Championship 15/16 were:

Gray (arguable that he's been a PL success)
McCormack (30 now, never played in the PL)
Abel Hernandez (no)
Jonathan Kodjia (perhaps, but never made it above mid-table Championship)
Nahki Wells (promoted as a bit -part player)
Tomer Hemed (Promoted, scoring a few goals. Not good enough for us)
Jordan Rhodes (flat-track bully in championship, not good enough for PL)

Most clean sheets - Konstantopoulos, not good enough for PL

Player of the month recipients:

Kazenga Lua Lua. Not good enough
Rhodes, discussed above
Judge. Not proven himself after a bright season, due to injury
Daryl Murphy. Just no.
Adam Clayton. Proven not to be good enough in PL.
Abel Hernandez. Not good enough at PL.
Aden Flint - big lummox
Sam Vokes - many Burnley fans prefer Barnes
Knockaert - now's his chance to show that he's not a flat track bully.

Non Burnley in Team of the year

Friend (not good enough)
Ayala (not good enough)
Michael Dawson (ancient)
Bruno (about to get his chance)
Bannan (No)
Judge (unproven)
Clayton (failed)
McCormack (not good enough)

So, come on then, who am I looking for???

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:26 pm

Cairney Mooy Assombolonga

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:32 pm

Would Cairney and Mooy get in ahead of Cork, Defour, Hendrick etc?

Assombalonga is clearly happy being a Championship player hitting an about-average number of goals per season.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:38 pm

We should be operating on a completely different plane than signing the 'cream' of the Championship crop. We'd be paying top dollar for unproven players no better than we already have.

We have to keep evolving, we have to keep improving. We are a Premier League club, with Premier League income. Let's start acting like it.

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:42 pm

By signing the likes of Defour and Cork who you have just said are better then the cream of the championship ?

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:45 pm

Yes, signing proven performers at a top level.

Apply the same to central defence, not pick up a 'promising' 4th choice from Burton Albion or someone

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:53 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:Yes, signing proven performers at a top level.

Apply the same to central defence, not pick up a 'promising' 4th choice from Burton Albion or someone

So Swansea signing a promising centre half from Barnsley doesn't count then?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37201308" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:54 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:Top scorers in the Championship 15/16 were:

Gray (arguable that he's been a PL success)
McCormack (30 now, never played in the PL)
Abel Hernandez (no)
Jonathan Kodjia (perhaps, but never made it above mid-table Championship)
Nahki Wells (promoted as a bit -part player)
Tomer Hemed (Promoted, scoring a few goals. Not good enough for us)
Jordan Rhodes (flat-track bully in championship, not good enough for PL)

Most clean sheets - Konstantopoulos, not good enough for PL

Player of the month recipients:

Kazenga Lua Lua. Not good enough
Rhodes, discussed above
Judge. Not proven himself after a bright season, due to injury
Daryl Murphy. Just no.
Adam Clayton. Proven not to be good enough in PL.
Abel Hernandez. Not good enough at PL.
Aden Flint - big lummox
Sam Vokes - many Burnley fans prefer Barnes
Knockaert - now's his chance to show that he's not a flat track bully.

Non Burnley in Team of the year

Friend (not good enough)
Ayala (not good enough)
Michael Dawson (ancient)
Bruno (about to get his chance)
Bannan (No)
Judge (unproven)
Clayton (failed)
McCormack (not good enough)

So, come on then, who am I looking for???

I think you have been very harsh on the Boro players. It was their attacking play that let them down but being relegated as a team doesn't automatically mean the player failed.

You would be hard pressed to find a Burnley fan who thought Barnes was better than Vokes or at least a sane one.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:54 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:Top scorers in the Championship 15/16 were:

So, come on then, who am I looking for???

Heaton, Hendricks, Gray (if you think he's a failure you set your standards too high), Vokes, Mee, Ward, Marney, Arfield, Boyd. That do for starters?

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:57 pm

Yeah, let's go and sign all those players then, that'd improve us

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:08 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:Yeah, let's go and sign all those players then, that'd improve us

So we should be looking to improve on the likes of Hendrick and Brady?

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:10 pm

So glad we didn't pay 5m for a league 1 player, where is Dele Ali these days ? Probably non league

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:10 pm

We should be looking to improve on Tarkowski and Kevin Long. That's what this thread is all about. Jesus Christ it's like pulling teeth.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:11 pm

claretdom wrote:So glad we didn't pay 5m for a league 1 player, where is Dele Ali these days ? Probably non league

Keep coming with the once-in-a-lifetime examples

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:14 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:Keep coming with the once-in-a-lifetime examples

But there are plenty out there. Where do you think Fulham got Chris Smalling from before selling him to Man U?

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:25 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:Keep coming with the once-in-a-lifetime examples

As oppose to talking down almost every player to suit an agenda ?

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:26 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:Robertson : Liverpool or Burnley ? Mmmmm, tough choice, that.

He didn't have the choice to make, Liverpool hadn't moved for him when we were talking with Hull. We faffed over the fee, he went to Liverpool 6 weeks later.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:32 pm

claretdom wrote:As oppose to talking down almost every player to suit an agenda ?

Well you're the ultimate contrarian, so you know where you're coming from, that's for sure.

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:34 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:Well you're the ultimate contrarian, so you know where you're coming from, that's for sure.

Lets change it around then, which players make your list of targets we could get.

timshorts · Post by **timshorts** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:36 pm

Spijed wrote:But there are plenty out there. Where do you think Fulham got Chris Smalling from before selling him to Man U?

Maidstone. Like David Sadler who played the same position and also went on to play for England.

Oh, and then there was Warren Barton, Butler, Gall, Beeney, all of whom played in the 1988/9 Conference promotion team at Maidstone and went on to play in the Premier League.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:40 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:Top scorers in the Championship 15/16 were:

Gray (arguable that he's been a PL success)
McCormack (30 now, never played in the PL)
Abel Hernandez (no)
Jonathan Kodjia (perhaps, but never made it above mid-table Championship)
Nahki Wells (promoted as a bit -part player)
Tomer Hemed (Promoted, scoring a few goals. Not good enough for us)
Jordan Rhodes (flat-track bully in championship, not good enough for PL)

Most clean sheets - Konstantopoulos, not good enough for PL

Player of the month recipients:

Kazenga Lua Lua. Not good enough
Rhodes, discussed above
Judge. Not proven himself after a bright season, due to injury
Daryl Murphy. Just no.
Adam Clayton. Proven not to be good enough in PL.
Abel Hernandez. Not good enough at PL.
Aden Flint - big lummox
Sam Vokes - many Burnley fans prefer Barnes
Knockaert - now's his chance to show that he's not a flat track bully.

Non Burnley in Team of the year

Friend (not good enough)
Ayala (not good enough)
Michael Dawson (ancient)
Bruno (about to get his chance)
Bannan (No)
Judge (unproven)
Clayton (failed)
McCormack (not good enough)

So, come on then, who am I looking for???

McCormack at his peak was good enough for the PL all day long. You're saying these players aren't good enough because they haven't been given a chance, pretty stupid way to look at it.

Ayala, Clayton, Friend how are they failures? Middlesbrough had an excellent defensive record yet you said they're failures because the TEAM was relegated. Strange.

Nahki Wells promoted as a bit part player?

Id also take Abel Hernandez here, sharp, quick and is proven at PL level.

Judging 1 players ability on how his current team does is probably the worst way to judge.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:47 pm

claretdom wrote:Lets change it around then, which players make your list of targets we could get.

We've missed out on a few already:

Zouma
Riedewald
Sule
Ake

Those kinds of players. Young players with scope to improve even further when given first team football, attainable within our budgets if we've got any kind of ambition to get a true replacement for Keane in.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:48 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:We should be looking to improve on Tarkowski and Kevin Long. That's what this thread is all about. Jesus Christ it's like pulling teeth.

But how come you are so absolutely sure, contrary to everything Dyche has said AND contrary to what he appears to believe by his actions, that Tarkowski is no good? I mean, Dyche has seen him play and train far more than you have. Obviously we should be looking to improve on all our players including Heaton. But if the chances of finding an upgrade at a sensible price are next to nil, then they aren't going to spend a fortune just so they can say "look, we spent a fortune".

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:49 pm

Now it all makes sense.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:51 pm

IF Dyche thought Tarkowski was as good as Keane, he'd have dropped Mee to play them together. After all, why not play your best two defenders?

Tarkowski isn't as good as Keane, he isn't as good as Mee. We are a top quality defender down, we need to replace him properly. That doesn't mean relying on your third choice.

Bacchus · Post by **Bacchus** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:59 pm

I'm all for signing up & coming players but I'd argue that we need a proven, steady head at centre half. Someone who you could trust to defend one on one, ideally someone with a bit of pace (or at least the ability to stay a step ahead in their reading of the game.) Someone like Jagielka would be perfect (albeit unlikely.)

Last season we plainly lacked the ability to attack teams in sufficient numbers, particularly away from home. If we have to retreat even further into a 'framework' to protect whatever combination of Long / Mee / Tarkowski we put out then I think we could be in for a long, hard slog. Strengthening our defence is not just about keeping the goals against column respectable, it should also impact our potential at the other end of the pitch.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:04 pm

Bacchus wrote: Strengthening our defence is not just about keeping the goals against column respectable, it should also impact our potential at the other end of the pitch.

Swansea conceded 70 goals last season so your point is a bit irrelevant.

Bacchus · Post by **Bacchus** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:13 pm

Spijed wrote:Swansea conceded 70 goals last season so your point is a bit irrelevant.

Not sure I understand what you mean by that.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:20 pm

Bacchus wrote:Not sure I understand what you mean by that.

You said "it should also impact our potential at the other end of the pitch" , but in their case it didn't. Having a poor defence didn't seem to affect the goals they scored to win matches, and eventually finish above us.

Estonhills · Post by **Estonhills** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:11 pm

Spijed wrote:But there are plenty out there. Where do you think Fulham got Chris Smalling from before selling him to Man U?

Middlesbrough actually. He signed a 2 year deal MAy 2008.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:17 pm

Estonhills wrote:Middlesbrough actually. He signed a 2 year deal MAy 2008.

Hardly, signed in May and left in June due to homesickness (soft lad) with contract cancelled. So Fulham signed him from nobody