Football's Magic Money Tree

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:55 pm

If I understand you correctly I would say - Not really - as we would have to use our current "dry powder" to pay off the existing contracts and our revenue would collapse to the £15-£20m mark like in Championship days. So much of our Revenue is dependant on the Money and reach of TV - that includes the sponsorships which are broadcast around the world for all to see.

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:58 pm

Yes I know but I was just thinking about all those clubs who have gone into massive debt and the fact that we haven’t.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:39 pm

There would be a reasonably large number of clubs going bankrupt fairly quickly.

It would be interesting to see.

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:49 pm

It would be like the early noughties - lots of CVA's and lots of local businesses threatened with going bump as well of lot's of people on normal incomes being out of work. The big clubs was seize the opportunity to control their overseas media rights and generate more money than ever by selling their matches to view on the web at a few quid a game. we on the other hand would be stable but around 50 ordinary people would be out of work and our funding for the academy would be seriously challenged in the medium term

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:05 pm

Following on from the FIFA proposal to limit agents share of transfers the Premier League is to vote on dual representation by agents so as to limit the outgoings to agents - this could get nasty as it would be a unilateral move by the PL

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... on-effort/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:40 pm

So limiting dual representation won't reduce the amount used will it?
Still going to need two agents and they can just get their mate involved on the other side of it.

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:50 pm

Outside the top flight we know life can be grim, and we also know what tends to happen to clubs when a football agent (or ex agent in this case) gets involved in the running or ownership of a club. So why do these people keep repeating the same mistakes? - Oldham are the latest in a litany of madcap takeovers by people who think they know better - the link is to a sorry tale of woe and utter stupidity

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... wages.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:53 pm

Hard to believe Oldham were once a PL club.

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:15 pm

That spell included good cup runs too - Joe Royal worked wonders

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:16 pm

We should be grateful for having British owners who appear intent on keeping the club on an even keel.

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:19 pm

Meanwhile Richard Scudamore thinks he has a plan to rework the distribution of overseas tv monies that will meet a consensus on Thursday as the Chairmen meet - I am not so convinced and the argument that the bottom 3 get more than the top 3 because of Parachute payments is ridiculous -those monies are available to all who go down that route - more is earned by another season in the PL and subsequent Parachute payments if that is how things go for them

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... -week.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:26 pm

Liverpool's owner is demanding more money for certain clubs, he's adamant things can't stay the same forever and it apparently isn't good for the sport.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:35 pm

'The top three clubs receive less overall TV money than the bottom three when you include parachute payments. - John Henry

That's a ludicrous claim.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:44 pm

I hope that the rest of the league have enough common sense to tell the likes of Henry to **** off. It's pure greed.
It wouldn't make them richer, because the rest of football would just charge more for their players.
It doesn't make them a stronger team, because all of their peers would have the same extra money.
It's sole purpose is to widen the gap between the top 6 and the rest, and that just leads to an even more unlevel playing field, which in the long run will kill the game as we know it.
Personally I'd rather they all ****** off and joined a European League where the greedy bastards can learn the price of shitting on the hand that feeds you.

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:54 pm

We mentioned a few times recently about Aston Villa and the turmoil they will go through in the coming weeks - It has begun the Chief Exec has been suspended and they have missed a payment to HMRC

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... -HMRC.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:12 pm

Those of us who are interested already know most of these figures - but the ever brilliant Swiss Ramble has had a good look at the 2016-17 figures for that lot down the road - it will be interesting to see if the current bounce helps them get to a more sensible and sustainable approach - Season ticket pricing suggests it might

https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/ ... 4293143552" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Goody1975 · Post by **Goody1975** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:15 pm

Chester Perry wrote:Those of us who are interested already know most of these figures - but the ever brilliant Swiss Ramble has had a good look at the 2016-17 figures for that lot down the road - it will be interesting to see if the current bounce helps them get to a more sensible and sustainable approach - Season ticket pricing suggests it might

https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/ ... 4293143552" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They must be on the verge of another transfer embargo.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:54 pm

Maybe the league should approve all transfers like they've been doing for Bolton.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:43 pm

Chester Perry wrote:We mentioned a few times recently about Aston Villa and the turmoil they will go through in the coming weeks - It has begun the Chief Exec has been suspended and they have missed a payment to HMRC

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... -HMRC.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hi CP, do we know which taxes Villa are late on? Is it PAYE related?

Is it also connected with HMRC's winding up order re missing the 31-03-2018 filing deadline for accounts for year to 30-June-2017?

levraiclaret · Post by **levraiclaret** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:51 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Hi CP, do we know which taxes Villa are late on? Is it PAYE related?

Is it also connected with HMRC's winding up order re missing the 31-03-2018 filing deadline for accounts for year to 30-June-2017?

Crystal Palace have also missed the filing date and are in danger of being wound up.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... e-accounts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Edited to add link.

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:55 pm

Paul

most reports suggest that it is a regular payment so PAYE makes sense though it is not clear given that the size of the payment thought to be around £4.2m which to my mind would also include VAT depending on the regularity of PAYE payments. The CE was suspended because he couldn't find the funds from other cash pots.

more reports
https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... d-tony-xia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... ds-threat/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:08 pm

aggi wrote:'The top three clubs receive less overall TV money than the bottom three when you include parachute payments. - John Henry

That's a ludicrous claim.

I agree. It's inane. What he's saying is that next year Stoke will get more money than Man United from the TV deal, if you don't count Man United's income.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:04 am

Just read an article that's suggested Villa's owner has been unable to put any money into the club for the last 3 months.
Some sort of crackdown by the Chinese government on moving money out of China?

Aren't Wolves owned by a Chinese businessman?

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:01 pm

for all the money woes and gambles of Aston Villa, Sunderland and the yet to be spoken of Middlesbrough - it is not hard to understand the dream to get into and stay in the Premier League - The last season for which we have financial results saw unprecedented earnings - helped significantly by TV monies and the reach that such deals bring to "brand value" (highlighted elsewhere on this thread) and therefore other means of earnings (primarily commercial). What is less acknowledged outside the boardrooms is how the new FFP rules in Europe and the Premier League is driving a path to profitability for all participants (good news for Owners, HMRC, and many local businesses that supply them but not necessarily so for competition, the ability to sign the best talent and therefore agents)

The guardian gives an overview of the changing financial landscape

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... es-tv-deal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:03 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Just read an article that's suggested Villa's owner has been unable to put any money into the club for the last 3 months.
Some sort of crackdown by the Chinese government on moving money out of China?

Aren't Wolves owned by a Chinese businessman?

This is definitely Sidney1st's writing style

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:13 pm

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/ ... g-up-order" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:41 pm

You can see from the article here how the new allocation of money in the European competitions is loaded towards maintaining the status quo with higher shares for those with higher European co-efficients. The best way to get a higher co-efficient is to play in Europe more https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44378346" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:52 pm

your right Aggi - I was going to post it last night but it appeared on it's own thread at the same time - however for a club like ours to achieve qualification on a regular basis is beyond credulity - the competition would just break us up by poaching players and staff - this is where FFP restricts us - it is all well and good players wanting bigger wages and seeing us earn healthy profits but we cannot spend all those on wages (should we want too)as we are restrained by FFP as to how much we can increase our wage bill - that is unless we significantly increase our commercial operation - I know Mike Garlick hinted at the time last years results came out that he thought there was a lot of opportunity for us in that space.

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:06 pm

Following Villa's scramble last week to keep HMRC at bay (they took out a series of loans) - they are going o find it much more this month to pay wages and tax at the end of this month

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... -45m-bill/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I thinks they will manage it if (ordered by probability):
- they sell someone sharpish
- agree excessive interest on a loan (as the risk of non-repayment is now increasing)
- Tony Xia manages to persuade the Chinese Authorities to let him take money out of the country

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:43 pm

I have let this thread lie for a couple of months whilst we go through the usual summer transfer shenanigans - however- given I have not seen it elsewhere on the board

I can now confirm that Raheem Sterling is a serious believer in the magic money tree

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football ... r-13034011" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:30 am

Stan Kroenke, the major shareholder of Arsenal has made a formal offer to buy the rest of the shareholding and take the club back to private ownership - the other significant shareholder Usmanov (employer of Everton's major shareholder) has agreed and it is now a "fait accompli" much to the chagrin of Arsenal fans. The offer values the club at £1.8bn

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45094538" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:12 pm

Some background on that Arsenal takeover deal

- the privacy it creates plays very much into Kroenke's favour
- Stan got a good price given recent trading values
- Deutsche Bank have got some solid collateral on the loan and an interesting default clause - they believe in the value of Premier League football it seems

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... r-the-club" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:19 pm

I have posted previously about how the ownership of clubs in multiple territories is unfair and can lead to (at best) immoral practises in player trading/hoarding - here is another example from the owners of Leicester who now have a 2nd division Belgian side that is picking up young players for a snip in the hope of developing them for Leicester. The son of a Sheffield Wednesday Legend and a huge academy prospect for them being an example of how they operate

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... -leicester" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:30 pm

Sad as it is for Sheffield Wed, it was the next progression from clubs having links/loan agreements with foreign clubs.
Man Utd used Antwerp for years didn't they to blood players in?

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:58 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Sad as it is for Sheffield Wed, it was the next progression from clubs having links/loan agreements with foreign clubs.
Man Utd used Antwerp for years didn't they to blood players in?

they did but the caveat being that utd have never owned another club or bought players on the cheap through a foreign club after the pursuit by the parent club

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:21 pm

Chester Perry wrote:they did but the caveat being that utd have never owned another club or bought players on the cheap through a foreign club after the pursuit by the parent club

Yeah I know that, but it probably won't be long before it happens.
City have a number of them, same as Watford's owners.

It's a trend that will increase overtime.
Personally I don't like it, but it appears to be unstoppable.

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:26 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:It's a trend that will increase overtime.
Personally I don't like it, but it appears to be unstoppable.

It can be stopped by a simple rule change - Uefa would I think, but it really requires a FIFA rule change - Man City are farming on an industrial scale - Watford are doing something slightly different

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:36 am

An article that states the bleeding obvious - many premier league clubs make profits when discounting ticket revenue

it then goes onto say that the clubs are nothing without the fans (yes more statements of the bleeding obvious - though Thursday's opponents may contradict that)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44850888" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

all in all it just demonstrates the delicate balance between the commercial revenue and the need to keep grounds full - what happens when you drop out of the money league though - our friends down the road know all about that trap and we just about escaped turmoil twice - first with Susan and the great gamble, then with SD's first promotion as the parachute money ended

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:37 pm

It seems that this summer's International Champions Cop (you know the won that gets the big European Clubs salivating at the prospect of a closed shop Champions League) has suddenly found itself not as popular as before with attendances significantly down on previous years.

Is this down to:
- too much football
- costs being too high
- lack of intensity of competition
- lack of big names after the world cup
- over familiarity with clubs going back to the same places each year and more games being put on

what do you think?

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... ttendances" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Royboyclaret · Post by **Royboyclaret** » Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:55 pm

Chester Perry wrote:An article that states the bleeding obvious - many premier league clubs make profits when discounting ticket revenue

it then goes onto say that the clubs are nothing without the fans (yes more statements of the bleeding obvious - though Thursday's opponents may contradict that)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44850888" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

all in all it just demonstrates the delicate balance between the commercial revenue and the need to keep grounds full - what happens when you drop out of the money league though - our friends down the road know all about that trap and we just about escaped turmoil twice - first with Susan and the great gamble, then with SD's first promotion as the parachute money ended

Conversely none of the Premier League's top five money makers - City, United, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal - would have made a profit without matchday Incomes being included, emphasising the effect of massive Wage bills.

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:46 pm

And more to the point Roy each of those has match day revenues a min of 9 times more than us and some much more - Utd and Arse took more in match day revenues that season than we took from TV (add in Champs League and their TV revenues were more than 1.7 times ours)

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:44 pm

Chester Perry wrote:It seems that this summer's International Champions Cop (you know the won that gets the big European Clubs salivating at the prospect of a closed shop Champions League) has suddenly found itself not as popular as before with attendances significantly down on previous years.

Is this down to:
- too much football
- costs being too high
- lack of intensity of competition
- lack of big names after the world cup
- over familiarity with clubs going back to the same places each year and more games being put on

what do you think?

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... ttendances" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's a World Cup year so that would be a factor,less big names to attract casual fans.

Effectively this is a glorified pre-season event so not a full-blooded match.

The same teams year after year takes away the novelty,this applies to the Champions League to some extent,but at least that is meaningful football.

The article suggested prices are double a normal MLS game,for a 'friendly' that's extortionate.

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:14 am

Following on from yesterdays report about the fact PL clubs can make profits without selling a ticket - A report on the financial chasm between the Premier League and the football League - no surprise to learn that the gap has grown significantly under the current TV deal - but an interesting trend on the scale and duration of the gamble now being undertaken by the Championship clubs looking for the rewards facilitated by a revised FFP post QPR Leicester and Bournemouth - though if you don't manage it in two seasons you are in for some serious cuts in year 3

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44981103" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the increase disparity between the new PL TV deal and the previous one can be seen if this report is compared to a similar one at the beginning of last season

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40717176" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:30 am

If there's no such thing as a Money Tree, then why do banks have branches?

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:59 pm

Chester Perry wrote:Following on from yesterdays report about the fact PL clubs can make profits without selling a ticket - A report on the financial chasm between the Premier League and the football League - no surprise to learn that the gap has grown significantly under the current TV deal - but an interesting trend on the scale and duration of the gamble now being undertaken by the Championship clubs looking for the rewards facilitated by a revised FFP post QPR Leicester and Bournemouth - though if you don't manage it in two seasons you are in for some serious cuts in year 3

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44981103" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the increase disparity between the new PL TV deal and the previous one can be seen if this report is compared to a similar one at the beginning of last season

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40717176" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Shows why Premier League status is vital to Burnley FC,if we maintain top-flight football there will be potential to snap up some of the top talent from the Championship,ala Gibson and Vydra,equally we are able to keep our star men and not have to flog the family silver.

Royboyclaret · Post by **Royboyclaret** » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:07 pm

Chester Perry wrote:Following on from yesterdays report about the fact PL clubs can make profits without selling a ticket - A report on the financial chasm between the Premier League and the football League - no surprise to learn that the gap has grown significantly under the current TV deal - but an interesting trend on the scale and duration of the gamble now being undertaken by the Championship clubs looking for the rewards facilitated by a revised FFP post QPR Leicester and Bournemouth - though if you don't manage it in two seasons you are in for some serious cuts in year 3

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44981103" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the increase disparity between the new PL TV deal and the previous one can be seen if this report is compared to a similar one at the beginning of last season

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40717176" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Remarkable is the only way to describe the lengths that many Championship clubs are now prepared to go to reach the promised land, and look which club are top of the pile in terms of Wage bill to Turnover ratio. Yes, it's Blackburn Rovers, weighing in at a whopping 150% and yet some of their numpty supporters still support the move to remove their owners whilst a minority understand the level of debt of gratitude they owe the Venky's. Without them the club would long ago have been filing for insolvency.

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:27 pm

Interesting article in the Guardian about fans chasing the funds of Usmanov for their club - comes with a proper warning that he sees it as an investment that he expects to make money from probably in a way he has seen the Glazers do at Man Utd

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... gow-united" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:29 pm

Royboyclaret wrote:Remarkable is the only way to describe the lengths that many Championship clubs are now prepared to go to reach the promised land, and look which club are top of the pile in terms of Wage bill to Turnover ratio. Yes, it's Blackburn Rovers, weighing in at a whopping 150% and yet some of their numpty supporters still support the move to remove their owners whilst a minority understand the level of debt of gratitude they owe the Venky's. Without them the club would long ago have been filing for insolvency.

it is amazing how fans believe that their club deserves more money put ito it that is only visible to them in headline transfer fees - we seem to have it more than ever

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:32 pm

Looks like the EFL are pushing through on tougher punishments for breaches of FFP (for those that aren.t promoted to the Prem) - Birmingham City are to be the first to feel the pain

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... aking-efl/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:59 pm

Chester Perry wrote:Looks like the EFL are pushing through on tougher punishments for breaches of FFP (for those that aren.t promoted to the Prem) - Birmingham City are to be the first to feel the pain

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... aking-efl/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just reading the article their misdemeanour isn't FFP breaches as such,but spending well under a transfer embargo,we'll see if the EFL sticks to their guns over this case,that much of a points deduction makes relegation to League 1 very likely.