Time to play Westwood

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:28 pm

It is possible to play Westwood and Cork together and it's time it got a try.

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:29 pm

MDWat · Post by **MDWat** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:33 pm

We had a good 10 minute spell when Westwood played against Spurs. I do like him, but not sure where he fits because that means playing Defour advanced, which doesn't work, or not playing him, which doesn't work.

bartons baggage · Post by **bartons baggage** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:36 pm

ablueclaret wrote:It is possible to play Westwood and Cork together and it's time it got a try.

He played well on Tuesday,maybe you're correct but i don't think he offers to much in the attacking sense.
His ball retention is good and does the simple things well.

Juan Tanamera · Post by **Juan Tanamera** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:51 pm

In Defour's first game against Liverpool last season, one of his forward, surging runs ended with Gray scoring our second in the 2-0 win.
I'd like to see more of this from our most creative player and I think with Westwood anchoring our midfield that could happen.
Hendrick would be the one to make way, the game completely passed him by today

BabylonClaret · Post by **BabylonClaret** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:54 pm

Yeah Jeff was poor today - surprised he came out again for the 2nd half.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:57 pm

Juan Tanamera wrote:In Defour's first game against Liverpool last season, one of his forward, surging runs ended with Gray scoring our second in the 2-0 win.
I'd like to see more of this from our most creative player and I think with Westwood anchoring our midfield that could happen.
Hendrick would be the one to make way, the game completely passed him by today

You can't take Hendrick out for Westwood, would leave the midfield without any balance.

bartons baggage · Post by **bartons baggage** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:05 pm

ClaretTony wrote:You can't take Hendrick out for Westwood, would leave the midfield without any balance.

completely different players,Westwood could never offer us the attacking flair that Hendrick does.
Westwood reminds me of David Jones,by keeping it simple and safe.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:06 pm

Westwood would offer far more than hendrick has this season.

Juan Tanamera · Post by **Juan Tanamera** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:06 pm

Hendrick really offered very little today and was a waste of a place in the team, the game completely passed him by.
Westwood is a tidy player who rarely wastes a pass and reads the game well from a defensive perspective.
Playing Westwood in front of the back four would release Defour to be influential in a more advanced position.

kaptin1 · Post by **kaptin1** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:13 pm

Juan Tanamera wrote:Hendrick really offered very little today and was a waste of a place in the team, the game completely passed him by.
Westwood is a tidy player who rarely wastes a pass and reads the game well from a defensive perspective.
Playing Westwood in front of the back four would release Defour to be influential in a more advanced position.

Isn’t that what Cork is there for?

jlup1980 · Post by **jlup1980** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:16 pm

I said this at half time. Play a 4231 with Cork and Westwood in deep and Defour advanced. I think it would work anyway!

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:18 pm

Adding another relatively lightweight, but neat and tidy footballer to a midfield already well stocked with relatively lightweight but neat and tidy footballers, strikes me as a very odd solution to a problem which is fundamentally that we lack power and more particularly in our attacking play.

If there's one player whose stock rises with every performance like today, its Wells, because he's the player we signed to inject pace to the team.

Burnleyareback2 · Post by **Burnleyareback2** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:20 pm

The 4 5 1 we play has been fantastic at times this season, we had 5mins in the first half where they didn't even get a touch.

However it went wrong today when Hendrick played as a 2nd striker for long spells, if that's what happens we may as well have a 2nd striker on the pitch

Juan Tanamera · Post by **Juan Tanamera** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:27 pm

claretspice wrote:Adding another relatively lightweight, but neat and tidy footballer to a midfield already well stocked with relatively lightweight but neat and tidy footballers, strikes me as a very odd solution to a problem which is fundamentally that we lack power and more particularly in our attacking play.

If there's one player whose stock rises with every performance like today, its Wells, because he's the player we signed to inject pace to the team.

Unfortunately, we can't do much about our lightweight midfield until January.
What we can do is add a little more imagination to our forward play.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:32 pm

bartons baggage wrote:completely different players,Westwood could never offer us the attacking flair that Hendrick does.
Westwood reminds me of David Jones,by keeping it simple and safe.

Must add, I do think he's unfortunate not to be playing but you could only bring him in for Defour or Cork.

daveisaclaret · Post by **daveisaclaret** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:38 pm

Dyche thinks he can play Westwood off the striker and it'll work. I like the positivity behind it but it didn't work last year when the striker was Vokes so it definitely won't work now when the striker is Wood.

I reckon he could put out a winning team with any three of our midfielders, but for as long as he tries to play Hendrick that far forward we will look disjointed.

Belgianclaret · Post by **Belgianclaret** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:40 pm

Strange way to seek for changes in an area where we are at our best now, this in order to solve problems higher up the pitch: Cork and Defour should be the first two names on the team sheet based on their performances to date, and those two work wonderfully well together (even in a 4-4-2). That implies that Westwood should wait for his chance at the moment.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:42 pm

daveisaclaret wrote:Dyche thinks he can play Westwood off the striker and it'll work. I like the positivity behind it but it didn't work last year when the striker was Vokes so it definitely won't work now when the striker is Wood.

I reckon he could put out a winning team with any three of our midfielders, but for as long as he tries to play Hendrick that far forward we will look disjointed.

Agree with this.

If we're looking to play more of a 4-3-3 with Brady on one flank and someone opposite who is capable of getting beyond the striker, then playing Hendrick in the most advanced midfield role might well work - he can also fill in on the right flank when that wide player is out of the defensive shape.

But at the minute we're playing more of a 4-4-1-1 and Hendrick is not a number 10. He's an orthodox central midfielder whose greatest strength is his ability to drive forwards (with or without the ball) from deep.

Royboyclaret · Post by **Royboyclaret** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:47 pm

Any adjustment to the midfield that allows Defour to perform his heroics higher up the pitch must be considered. We were so lacking in creativity and incisiveness in the final third it was painful to watch at times.

Playing our main man in a deep midfield role is a total waste of his talent and similar to Harry Potts asking JImmy Mc to play in that role back in the day. Potts would never have done that.

We have to start to make things happen in the area of the pitch that counts the most.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:52 pm

Cork Westwood at the base Defour the attacking force Taylor and Brady playing wide.

daveisaclaret · Post by **daveisaclaret** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:53 pm

ablueclaret wrote:Cork Westwood at the base Defour the attacking force Taylor and Brady playing wide.

Never change, pal.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:55 pm

Royboyclaret wrote:Any adjustment to the midfield that allows Defour to perform his heroics higher up the pitch must be considered. We were so lacking in creativity and incisiveness in the final third it was painful to watch at times.

Playing our main man in a deep midfield role is a total waste of his talent and similar to Harry Potts asking JImmy Mc to play in that role back in the day. Potts would never have done that.

We have to start to make things happen in the area of the pitch that counts the most.

We're playing Defour in the area of the pitch where he gets the most touches and can best influence the game. I never saw McIlroy, but as I understand it he was a genuine attacking midfielder. Defour isnt, he's a box to box player and thats where he's spent his entire career - linking play through the units, but generally with the game in front of him rather than behind him.

If anything, it was he who forced himself back today because he wanted to get the ball and try and make stuff happen. He'd probably be better allowing Cork to drop deepest more often so Defour can play that bit further forwards. But that's a small tweak.

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:58 pm

I have seen the title of the thread, but not the "meat", (I choose not to see it) but because I have previously seen the utter drivel spouted by the op, on any subject you care to mention, I have to wholeheartedly disagree with the reasoning behind this statement, even if I do think Westwood has a place in the team.

Pimlico_Claret · Post by **Pimlico_Claret** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:02 pm

If Hendrick had been sent off in the first minute today, it wouldnt have made any difference to the outcome, such was his lack of presence

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:04 pm

Juan Tanamera wrote:Unfortunately, we can't do much about our lightweight midfield until January.
What we can do is add a little more imagination to our forward play.

Lightweight midfield?
We've spent a bl**dy fortune on it!

Royboyclaret · Post by **Royboyclaret** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:20 pm

It's almost like we're conditioned to play in a certain way and without an alternative.

Imagine a blank canvas and Cork threading a through ball to Defour on the edge of the box. Defour drops a shoulder, takes two defenders out of the game and creates a yard of space for Wood to receive a pass, who then tests the keeper with an attempt on goal.

I know it's a long way from what we're seeing right now but trust me that's the way that Jimmy Mc used to operate and we scored lots of goals as a result. Utilise Defour's talent in an area of the pitch where he can be most effective.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:24 pm

Royboyclaret wrote:It's almost like we're conditioned to play in a certain way and without an alternative.

Imagine a blank canvas and Cork threading a through ball to Defour on the edge of the box. Defour drops a shoulder, takes two defenders out of the game and creates a yard of space for Wood to receive a pass, who then tests the keeper with an attempt on goal.

I know it's a long way from what we're seeing right now but trust me that's the way that Jimmy Mc used to operate and we scored lots of goals as a result. Utilise Defour's talent in an area of the pitch where he can be most effective.

Hard to imagine because ive never seen Defour play in that position effectively. Ive seen lots of quality from him, but neither the ability to find the space to receive that pass from Cork, nor the strength to receive it with a centre back in close attendance, are amongst them.

Juan Tanamera · Post by **Juan Tanamera** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:25 pm

boatshed bill wrote:Lightweight midfield?
We've spent a bl**dy fortune on it!

Claretspice's description, not mine.

Juan Tanamera · Post by **Juan Tanamera** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:34 pm

claretspice wrote:Hard to imagine because ive never seen Defour play in that position effectively. Ive seen lots of quality from him, but neither the ability to find the space to receive that pass from Cork, nor the strength to receive it with a centre back in close attendance, are amongst them.

I've already mentioned the second goal he set up for Gray in the 2-0 over Liverpool last season.
I'm sure someone can upload the video.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:36 pm

Juan Tanamera wrote:I've already mentioned the second goal he set up for Gray in the 2-0 over Liverpool last season.
I'm sure someone can upload the video.

The one he set up playing as an orthodox midfielder, picking the ball up 40 yards from our own goal?

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:36 pm

Juan Tanamera wrote:Claretspice's description, not mine.

Yes, sorry about that, don't know how I managed it

Juan Tanamera · Post by **Juan Tanamera** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:24 pm

claretspice wrote:The one he set up playing as an orthodox midfielder, picking the ball up 40 yards from our own goal?

Yes!
How many times did he do anything remotely like that today.
Defour's outstanding talents are being restricted.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:28 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Must add, I do think he's unfortunate not to be playing but you could only bring him in for Defour or Cork.

No you couldnt. There are 8 other players he could be brought in for

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:48 am

ablueclaret wrote:Cork Westwood at the base Defour the attacking force Taylor and Brady playing wide.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:06 am

Pre-season threads from OP all posted within 5 days of each other

- Will we have a new manger next season?
- Should we sign anyone next season?
- Where this season may go wrong.
- The Oliver Cromwell of British Football.

Attention seeking prat.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:43 am

SD doesn't think outside the box and many on here love that, his realistic pragmatism has been pretty successful but he often hasn't seen opportunities to improve the side.

Failed to play 4-5-1 away from home last year when it cried out for it.
Never tried three at the back when we had the ideal candidates.
Couldn't see Mee was a centre-back.
Couldn't get Defour into his side to add creativity.

He's a defensive thinker steeped in the philosophy that players are pretty dim and need a framework in which to operate or anarchy reigns, and to a great extent he's right but to become a great manager he needs to be more adaptive, give certain players their head, buy quality, and just occasionally think outside the box, ie play Taylor and Brady as wide men, one acting as an orthodox winger the other as a modern one, with Vokes playing up front.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:01 am

SD is now a two trick pony, he needs to make use of our ability to move between 4-4-2 and 4-5-1 seamlessly. Does one start with two up front or move to it as the game progresses that is the fundamental question at present. Walters is of course the obvious solution to this problem but it rather feels as if age has caught up with him as many feared.

bartons baggage · Post by **bartons baggage** » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:24 am

ablueclaret wrote:SD doesn't think outside the box and many on here love that, his realistic pragmatism has been pretty successful but he often hasn't seen opportunities to improve the side.

Failed to play 4-5-1 away from home last year when it cried out for it.
Never tried three at the back when we had the ideal candidates.
Couldn't see Mee was a centre-back.
Couldn't get Defour into his side to add creativity.

He's a defensive thinker steeped in the philosophy that players are pretty dim and need a framework in which to operate or anarchy reigns, and to a great extent he's right but to become a great manager he needs to be more adaptive, give certain players their head, buy quality, and just occasionally think outside the box, ie play Taylor and Brady as wide men, one acting as an orthodox winger the other as a modern one, with Vokes playing up front.

I thought your op was sensible,then you follow it up with crap.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:41 am

The other way around for me. Don't agree with the OP, but the last one actually, for once, has some decent suggestions, especially getting Taylor in the team.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:48 pm

Wards been quality for us and im one of his biggest fans. But I think Taylor will come in soon and make the shirt his own. A la lowton.

BleedingClaret · Post by **BleedingClaret** » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:19 pm

Juan Tanamera wrote:Hendrick really offered very little today and was a waste of a place in the team, the game completely passed him by.
Westwood is a tidy player who rarely wastes a pass and reads the game well from a defensive perspective.
Playing Westwood in front of the back four would release Defour to be influential in a more advanced position.

I said he was a waste of a shirt too.
Reminded me of only having 10 turn up for a Sunday League game and persuading your non football playing mate who just comes to watch and only has a pair of boots cos he helps puts up the net in the muddy penalty area.
10 minutes in you remember why he doesn't play and half an hour in you wish you'd played with 10 cos you keep forgetting and passing to him

Flat Stanley · Post by **Flat Stanley** » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:20 pm

Hendrix out for Westwood with Defour playing the advanced role for me too. Think that would work nicely and would be a well balanced midfield.

Really not sure how Hendrix and Arfield kept their places after the Leeds game ahead of JGB.

Iloveyoubrady · Post by **Iloveyoubrady** » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:24 pm

Yes we should play defour in the advanced role. We should also play more of a 4 -5 -1 than a 4-4-1-1 because the defensive stability of the 3 central midfielders means the wide men can be much more effective.

BleedingClaret · Post by **BleedingClaret** » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:29 pm

Juan Tanamera wrote:Hendrick really offered very little today and was a waste of a place in the team, the game completely passed him by.
Westwood is a tidy player who rarely wastes a pass and reads the game well from a defensive perspective.
Playing Westwood in front of the back four would release Defour to be influential in a more advanced position.

Whilst Hendrick is away in La La land (I wondered if he and Ward had been on the ****)
I think we need Defour behind the striker in a 451 and Westwood imo opinion, if Defour hasn't' an equally gifted twin brother, is the only player with the agility to do what Defour did yesterday

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:47 pm

Nothing wrong with Hendrick in his proper position. We have the strongest central midfield options we have had for 40 years. The problem is to the side and in front. I will be furious if Gray is not replaced properly in EARLY JANUARY. DITTO BOYD AND both with pace. In the meantime I still think that Brady should be tried as a nr 10. We cant carry on beung so predictable at home.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:52 pm

summitclaret wrote:Nothing wrong with Hendrick in his proper position. We have the strongest central midfield options we have had for 40 years. The problem is to the side and in front. I will be furious if Gray is not replaced properly in EARLY JANUARY. DITTO BOYD AND both with pace. In the meantime I still think that Brady should be tried as a nr 10. We cant carry on beung so predictable at home.

Dyche already thinks we've replaced Boyd at least otherwise he wouldn't have let him go would he?

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:54 pm

So which winger have we signed and don't say wells as he is a striker.?

He will have know months ago that boyd was going or would have offered him a better deal.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:56 pm

summitclaret wrote:So which winger have we signed and don't say wells as he is a striker.?

We've got JBG and Brady.

Top Claret · Post by **Top Claret** » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:59 pm

He should have stuck to the same side that started at Liverpool. Hendrick was poor against Leeds and Arfield has had some good games in CM. Wood was totally isolated up top due to the lack of service from our midfield and wing backs