Cantalunya Independence Vote

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Pstotto
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Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Pstotto » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:13 pm

Looks like there's quite a huff in Spain right now about a vote for an independent Catalunya. Can you imagine their football league? No I can't either, that's why there will never be an independent Catalunya, in my opinion.

Agreed or not?

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Bin Ont Turf » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:22 pm

Never mind all that.

How much will it cost for English people to have two weeks half board in Lloret de Mar?
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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Pstotto » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:27 pm

I thought it was Costa Blanca where the prices are set to rise? Mind you, the season is shorter further up. Horrible place, out of season.

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by conyoviejo » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:35 pm

The Catalunians are very proud people and have wanted their independence for quite a long time now.. Catalunia is a rich area of Spain and provide the Spanish government with about 20% of their income so they will fight tooth and nail to keep them within Spain.. The government has sent thousands of police to stop them from voting,the Catalunians have been usuing thousands of tractors to block off the voting areas,it will be interesting to see what the outcome is tomorrow.. Just hope it doesn't turn violent.. VIVA CATALUNYA ..

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by john'sroseyspecs » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:45 pm

The last Spanish civil war was especially nasty.

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by dsr » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:50 pm

I think the Spanish authorties have ensured two things:

1. If this referendum is disrupted, they'll stick in an extra ballot paper to ask the question again next time they have a local election, which the government can't constitutionally stop;

2. Independence will win.

Imagine the result of the Scottish independence referendum if the UK government had sent in the troops to stop the Scots being allowed to vote. Or you don't even need to imagine how the Irish felt over the years when the British told them what to do. If you've got an independent race sitting there in the corner of your country, you can never make them like you by being nasty to you.

Actually, the Spanish know that anyway. Why do they think they're so unpopular in Gibraltar?

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by conyoviejo » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:02 pm

dsr wrote:I think the Spanish authorties have ensured two things:

1. If this referendum is disrupted, they'll stick in an extra ballot paper to ask the question again next time they have a local election, which the government can't constitutionally stop;

2. Independence will win.

Imagine the result of the Scottish independence referendum if the UK government had sent in the troops to stop the Scots being allowed to vote. Or you don't even need to imagine how the Irish felt over the years when the British told them what to do. If you've got an independent race sitting there in the corner of your country, you can never make them like you by being nasty to you.

Actually, the Spanish know that anyway. Why do they think they're so unpopular in Gibraltar?

Agree with all that.. It's just a question of how long it will take for the Catalunians to obtain it ,as they will never give up their quest for independence..

Homage to Catalonia by George Orwell is quite a good read

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by dsr » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:07 pm

conyoviejo wrote:It's just a question of how long it will take for the Catalunians to obtain it ,as they will never give up their quest for independence..
Any idea if French Catalonia has any similar ambitions? Or if Spanish Catalonia would want to merge?

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Sidney1st » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:17 pm

In regards to football I think they're 20 Catalan teams.

They have enough to make a league, but it would be interesting to see UEFA find a way to justify a CL spot for Barca.

If Catalan goes independent then yes Barca would be in a different country but I'd fully expect Fifa and Uefa to bend over for a solution.

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by conyoviejo » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:18 pm

dsr wrote:Any idea if French Catalonia has any similar ambitions? Or if Spanish Catalonia would want to merge?
Last edited by conyoviejo on Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by conyoviejo » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:18 pm

conyoviejo wrote:No idea DSR,all I know is what I have been taught Spanish by people's who were from Catalunya (Barcelona) and were very staunch supporters of their independence ..

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Bin Ont Turf » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:20 pm

Lancashire next, well overdue.

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by conyoviejo » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:21 pm

Sidney1st wrote:In regards to football I think they're 20 Catalan teams.

They have enough to make a league, but it would be interesting to see UEFA find a way to justify a CL spot for Barca.

If Catalan goes independent then yes Barca would be in a different country but I'd fully expect Fifa and Uefa to bend over for a solution.
In theory Sidney,Barca could end up playing in the Premier league or French ,German leagues

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Sidney1st » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:34 pm

How if they become an independent country?

People in England are split over letting Celtic or Rangers join English football and at what level.
(Personally at the very bottom of the ladder when I'm asked)

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by dsr » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:37 pm

Sidney1st wrote:How if they become an independent country?

People in England are split over letting Celtic or Rangers join English football and at what level.
(Personally at the very bottom of the ladder when I'm asked)
If FIFA, the Spanish, and the Catalan authorities all agreed, they could still play in the Spanish league in the same way as, for example, Welsh clubs play in the English leagues and Liechtenstein clubs play in Swiss leagues. Or for that matter Berwick Rangers in the Scottish league, or Derry City in the Republic of Irish league.

It's a big if.

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by conyoviejo » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:40 pm

Have a read of this Sidney


http://uk.businessinsider.com/barcelona ... ?r=US&IR=T" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Clarets4me » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:43 pm

I fear alot of our younger posters will not recall that Spain was effectively ruled by an Army General, as a quasi Fascist state up until November 1975, when Franco died. Up until the mid 1970's, a women could not operate a bank account in Spain, without a father or husband countersigning their cheques..
Europe has many other examples,women didn't get the vote in Switzerland until 1971...The Greek army ran the Country from 1967-74, Portugal was run until 1974 by another semi fascist government..
Democracy, or allowing the people to decide, is a relatively new concept to some of these Countries, a delicate flower indeed !!
The European Union is effectively supporting the use of troops, to close down polling stations, as a historical people try to vote to decide on their future..

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Pstotto » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:54 pm

Barcelona in the Vanarama League, conyoviejo.

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Rowls » Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:06 am

Clarets4me wrote:I fear alot of our younger posters will not recall that Spain was effectively ruled by an Army General, as a quasi Fascist state up until November 1975, when Franco died. Up until the mid 1970's, a women could not operate a bank account in Spain, without a father or husband countersigning their cheques..
This is how we were taught to dislike the Nazis at school.

"Look how they treated women!"

"They wouldn't let them work in factories. They insisted that women should become mothers first and foremost and denied them their chance to work!"

"Isn't it appalling?"

I'm all for female emancipation, equal rights and women having the same power over their fate as men but it always struck me as half-cocked way of disparaging a regime which committed mass genocide and plunged the entire world into war.

Holocaust? Pffft. That's nothing - They didn't let women operate heavy machinery.

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Sidney1st » Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:29 am

conyoviejo wrote:Have a read of this Sidney


http://uk.businessinsider.com/barcelona ... ?r=US&IR=T" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Basically suggesting money talks.

That's fine, but if Barca would be allowed in then we'd end up with Celtic and Rangers trying it on too.

The other alternative is if Barca are without a league a European super league would be created reasonably quickly I think, it would be the ideal time to start it up.

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by ExistentialWanderer » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:41 am

I'm of the opinion that if a people wish to have their independence then they should have it. Nothing worse than an oppressed, unhappy nationality. Regards Barcelona. I just don't see why they couldn't proceed in La Liga. Monaco play in the French top level and I don't see why Barca couldn't continue. The Scottish argument holds no water whatsoever. If a club wants to join another countries league. They'd have to start at the bottom of the pyramid. If Spain's main argument is losing a football team then it's a desperate measure. I know it isn't, the fact that the region is wealthy will undoubtedly have a huge bearing on Spain wanting this referendum stopped.

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:48 am

I'm sure the wealth of Catalunya plays a part but i think a bigger impact is the precedent Catalan independence would set. There will be a worry that it would lead to the break up of the country with the Basque Country and the Galicians following suit along with any other region that decides "if they can be independent then so can we". So it's really about Spain's survival as the nation it is.

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by kicker_conspiracy » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:52 am

Sidney1st wrote:Basically suggesting money talks.

That's fine, but if Barca would be allowed in then we'd end up with Celtic and Rangers trying it on too.

The other alternative is if Barca are without a league a European super league would be created reasonably quickly I think, it would be the ideal time to start it up.
It would be Celtic and Aberdeen if anything. Rangers were liquidated in 2012 and the Sevco version is on the cusp of insolvency.

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by ExistentialWanderer » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:52 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:I'm sure the wealth of Catalunya plays a part but i think a bigger impact is the precedent Catalan independence would set. There will be a worry that it would lead to the break up of the country with the Basque Country and the Galicians following suit along with any other region that decides "if they can be independent then so can we". So it's really about Spain's survival as the nation it is.
It's interesting you mention the other regions. That was in the back of my mind. Especially the Basque region.

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Sidney1st » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:48 am

kicker_conspiracy wrote:It would be Celtic and Aberdeen if anything. Rangers were liquidated in 2012 and the Sevco version is on the cusp of insolvency.
Usually the best way to set off a Rangers fan is to poke them about the lack of history their club has.

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by bfcjg » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:53 am

The EU will see it as another crack in the foundation.

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by ExistentialWanderer » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:57 am

Sidney1st wrote:Usually the best way to set off a Rangers fan is to poke them about the lack of history their club has.
I have a Scottish mate who supports Chelsea and Rangers. You can imagine the fun I have with that... :D
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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by JohnMcGreal » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:22 am

bfcjg wrote:The EU will see it as another crack in the foundation.
Will it though? I'm presuming that an independent Catalunya will still be seeking full EU membership, in the same way that an independent Scotland was.

Countries have broken up in the EU before and new independent states have joined again on their own. I don't think it will be a big problem for them.

Spain on the other hand...

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by IndigoLake » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:43 am

I'm outside a school which is a poll station with my wife and her family. We feel we have a right to vote and will do our best to deny Spanish police from entering. Spain has refused that right and has been uncompromising when it comes to negotiations with Catalonia. People are trying to be peaceful but riot police are hitting men and women of all ages in the faces with the batons. They're at a school nearby now and then they'll be here I imagine.

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by conyoviejo » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:48 am

The Catalans were banned from speaking their own language under the rule of Franco and suffered severe hardships and brutality under his rule.. They have never forgotten this and will not let their crusade for independence drop.. The Spanish gobierno won't allow this to happen as like somebody else said the Basques and Galliceans will be up for their own independence..Interesting times ahead in Spain

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Mattster » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:43 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:Will it though? I'm presuming that an independent Catalunya will still be seeking full EU membership, in the same way that an independent Scotland was.

Countries have broken up in the EU before and new independent states have joined again on their own. I don't think it will be a big problem for them.

Spain on the other hand...
I'd imagine Spain would veto/block Catlunya's membership to the EU for as long as possible as they threatened with Scotland.

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Winstonswhite » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:48 am

IndigoLake wrote:I'm outside a school which is a poll station with my wife and her family. We feel we have a right to vote and will do our best to deny Spanish police from entering. Spain has refused that right and has been uncompromising when it comes to negotiations with Catalonia. People are trying to be peaceful but riot police are hitting men and women of all ages in the faces with the batons. They're at a school nearby now and then they'll be here I imagine.
Whereabouts in Spain (Catalonia) are you Indigo?!

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by conyoviejo » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:30 am

IndigoLake wrote:I'm outside a school which is a poll station with my wife and her family. We feel we have a right to vote and will do our best to deny Spanish police from entering. Spain has refused that right and has been uncompromising when it comes to negotiations with Catalonia. People are trying to be peaceful but riot police are hitting men and women of all ages in the faces with the batons. They're at a school nearby now and then they'll be here I imagine.
Wish you all the best mate.. Stay safe and I hope you get to vote

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Cirrus_Minor » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:38 am

My dad said when he was 16 he wanted to join up with the international Brigade to fight Franco. My grandfather stopped him and told him you will have bigger fish to fry with what was going on in Germany.

But since he put his name forward in 1936 he would never go to Spain as long as he lived scared he would be arrested.

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by conyoviejo » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:49 am

Loads of arrests and the police are using batons willy nilly on the Catalan folks ..Suppresion at its worst from the Spanish authorities.. Hope the Catalunians get enough people voting..

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by IndigoLake » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:58 am

Winstonswhite wrote:Whereabouts in Spain (Catalonia) are you Indigo?!
I'm in Barcelona! Have been for 7 years now. Things are still fairly calm in our location. Most schools have not been successfully closed which is good news.
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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by IndigoLake » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:59 am

conyoviejo wrote:Wish you all the best mate.. Stay safe and I hope you get to vote
Thanks, appreciate that. Things are going okay so far but I've seen some horrific police brutality from other locations in Barcelona. There's no going back for Spain now.

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:05 pm

conyoviejo wrote:Loads of arrests and the police are using batons willy nilly on the Catalan folks ..Suppresion at its worst from the Spanish authorities.. Hope the Catalunians get enough people voting..

They're doing a good job of making the rest of the world want independence for Catalunya.
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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:08 pm

It's really nonsensical too. By violently suppressing the vote the Spanish authorities ensure that only the most commited of voters take the risk to vote, and they're overwhelmingly going to be pro-independence voters. So even if the turnout is low the movement is going to score a huge win when they're able to say that~80% of people who voted chose independence. And on top of that they create a ton of converts to the seccessionist movement.

So it's only a matter of time until either Catalunya secceeds, violently or otherwise, and the Spanish government will only have itself to blame.
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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Right_winger » Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:06 pm

What about the rule of law. Does that it matter anymore? The Spanish government has not allowed this vote to go ahead and it has the say. Those who are kicking up about it are effective declaring war. The Spanish have every right to go in hard.

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Sidney1st » Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:07 pm

Today's Barca game cancelled due to violence happening during voting.

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:13 pm

Right_winger wrote:What about the rule of law. Does that it matter anymore? The Spanish government has not allowed this vote to go ahead and it has the say. Those who are kicking up about it are effective declaring war. The Spanish have every right to go in hard.

So you think it's OK to make criminals out of people who are attempting to peacefully cast a ballot? What an attitude to have.

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Sidney1st » Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:15 pm

If it's an illegal ballot then the Spanish are allowed to prevent it happening.

There shouldn't be violence though for no reason

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Sidney1st » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:08 pm

Change of plan, game going ahead behind closed doors.

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:29 pm

Sidney1st wrote:If it's an illegal ballot then the Spanish are allowed to prevent it happening.

There shouldn't be violence though for no reason

What kind of freedom loving country physically prevents people from visiting a voting booth and casting a vote? What kind of free and democratic country makes that a criminal act?

Even Iraq managed it better. You don't get violent in order to prevent people from voting, you just don't recognise the vote.

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Right_winger » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:29 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:So you think it's OK to make criminals out of people who are attempting to peacefully cast a ballot? What an attitude to have.
When it's against the law yes these people are criminals. Blocking the police from their duties albeit peacefully is also illegal. There has to be a respect for the rule of law otherwise the world might as well be a free for all where it really is dog eat dog and natural selection prevails it that what you want IT?

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Right_winger » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:30 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:What kind of freedom loving country physically prevents people from visiting a voting booth and casting a vote? What kind of free and democratic country makes that a criminal act?

Even Iraq managed it better. You don't get violent in order to prevent people from voting, you just don't recognise the vote.
Nice twist, you are forgetting this vote is an illegal one.

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by mikeS » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:37 pm

An illegal vote only because the central government feared that a large proportion of the Catalans would vote yes for independence. There are some awful scenes on the news media sites showing Catalans being clubbed and battered by the police and paramilitaries.

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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:41 pm

Right_winger wrote:When it's against the law yes these people are criminals. Blocking the police from their duties albeit peacefully is also illegal. There has to be a respect for the rule of law otherwise the world might as well be a free for all where it really is dog eat dog and natural selection prevails it that what you want IT?

I want a world where thinking like yours is roundly ridiculed as fascistic nonsense. Explain to me why it should be a crime for me to attend a voting booth and cast a ballot just because the government at the time don't like the idea that i'm voting on the issue?

Imagine there wasn't the decision to have the EU referendum and UKIP/Farage decided to hold an unnoficial vote instead. How comfortable would you be with the government acting like the Gestapo to prevent you from casting your unnofficial ballot? You'd probably be a little bit delightedover such a propoganda coup, but you know as well as i do that your argument would be about how anti-democratic the government was acting.
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Re: Cantalunya Independence Vote

Post by Sidney1st » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:41 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:What kind of freedom loving country physically prevents people from visiting a voting booth and casting a vote? What kind of free and democratic country makes that a criminal act?

Even Iraq managed it better. You don't get violent in order to prevent people from voting, you just don't recognise the vote.
If its an illegal vote, why would a country allow it to happen?
If they rolled over then as someone else mentioned, the Basques could do the same etc.

Violence shouldn't be happening, just to clear that up, but if the vote is illegal the ruling government has every right to stop it happening.
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