Alastair Campbell wants May to cancel Brexit...

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:45 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... nt-be-done

Alastair's contempt for the will of the British people continues apace....

Saxoman · Post by **Saxoman** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:59 pm

Does he still pretend to support Burnley, or he at Chelsea with the rest of the toffs these days?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:05 pm

As does the brextremist contempt for our parliamentary democracy.

gandhisflipflop · Post by **gandhisflipflop** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:11 pm

Great. Another clown.

Saxoman · Post by **Saxoman** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:17 pm

I'm a remainer, but to veto brexit would set a very dangerous precedent.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:24 pm

it would, which is why it has to be done through an GE with a party promising to stop Brexit in its manifesto.

To get to such a stage requires the Conservatives actually doing something other than f**king the country over in the worst attempt at making a deal since Southampton offered us £1 million for Wayne Thomas.

Vino blanco · Post by **Vino blanco** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:27 pm

How can it be done by a General Election, hopefully we will be out by the time of the next one?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:31 pm

Because we are a parliamentary democracy, and if a party promises to stop Brexit, or rejoin, or whatever and it wins the GE, then it has a democratic mandate to do it.

Thats how democracy works.

Vino blanco · Post by **Vino blanco** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:34 pm

I repeat, how can it stop brexit if we will be out by the time the next GE comes round?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:34 pm

I wouldn't be surprised it we end up with a second referendum after negotiations have broken down, and the choice being between Brexit with no deal, or Remain.

The extremists will screech and scream like they are at any suggestion that No Deal has no mandate, and when Remain wins they'll shut up about the "will of the people" all of a sudden.
And the good thing about those two being then choices is that it'll be easy to make the vote legally binding by making the vote result trigger our exit, just like IndyRef was bound by law to trigger Scotland's exit if 'Yes' won.

We shouldn't reverse the process without a second referendum, but it must be one where we actually know what both options mean. And neither should we be held hostage by the Ringo types who think we should never be allowed to change our minds.

Vino blanco · Post by **Vino blanco** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:36 pm

Sweet dreams, Turtle.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:39 pm

Are you actually reading what I posted?

"or rejoin, or whatever"

To be honest, and I hate to say it, but the only way to sort this out (assuming that we do leave) is to have another election and see if the other lot are any better at sorting this out.

They start out with having the massive advantage of not having dogma obsessed idiots who care nothing about the country as long as they are "pure".......oh

We are ****** whatever basically. What a time to be alive.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:42 pm

Vino blanco wrote:How can it be done by a General Election, hopefully we will be out by the time of the next one?

At present I would put the odds on that at about 50 / 50.
No guarantee that May can last beyond 2019, and by no means certain that we can conclude negotiations by March 2019. (Of course no one knows just how it will pan out, but the general trend at the moment is moving towards soft brexit or no brexit, and politicians and the press tend to follow public opinion and like to be on the winning side).

Jimmymaccer · Post by **Jimmymaccer** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:45 pm

Interpret this as Campbell not being in the press for a week or two.....

I wish he’d just feroook off and take Diane Abbott with him, she’s a real weapon of mass destruction! In a chip shop!

Vino blanco · Post by **Vino blanco** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:46 pm

I was referring to your first post when you said it needed a GE to stop Brexit. I repeat, we will be out by the time of the next election. Also, I think it’s a great time to be alive: BFC doing well in the PL, the sun is shining here in Spain and I have a great life style, what’s the problem?

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:58 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Because we are a parliamentary democracy, and if a party promises to stop Brexit, or rejoin, or whatever and it wins the GE, then it has a democratic mandate to do it.

Thats how democracy works.

"if a party promises to stop Brexit, or rejoin,"

One did in June in this years Election. Tiny Tim Farrons Illiberal Antidemocrats.

They recieved around 7.5% of the vote.........

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:34 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:....a second referendum, but it must be one where we actually know what both options mean...

Because the reach and nature of the EU is settled for all time so an elector can know what that option means. Or is that an uncertainty that doesn't matter because it's the right side regardless?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:39 am

thatdberight wrote:Because the reach and nature of the EU is settled for all time so an elector can know what that option means. Or is that an uncertainty that doesn't matter because it's the right side regardless?

The reach and nature of the EU can only change with the consent of every single member nation. Or does that not matter?

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:16 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:The reach and nature of the EU can only change with the consent of every single member nation. Or does that not matter?

If one of our reasons for staying in is to thwart the will of the other 27, then it would be better to be out. Why hang around to try and oppose the direction of the other 27? As is constantly pointed out here and elsewhere, the intentions of the most powerful country in the bloc are entirely benign. It is, as Lancaster said only a few posts ago, modern Britain, not modern Germany, which is more like Nazi Germany.
So, as the intentions of a Franco-German grouping are benign and the European dream of Juncker et al. is broadly shared by the 27, what on earth is the UK doing constantly hampering it? Only if one believes the UK should be fully on board with increasing economic, political and military convergence does it make sense to argue for remaining in.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:27 am

The Brexit debate in a nut-shell:

"We must leave because we don't have enough influence in the EU"
"But we have a veto"
"We must leave because we have too much influence in the EU"

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:38 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:The Brexit debate in a nut-shell:

"We must leave because we don't have enough influence in the EU"
"But we have a veto"
"We must leave because we have too much influence in the EU"

No. You don't listen to anything apart from your own voice, do you?
The UK can hamper the EU's progress towards super-state, not stop it. The clear direction of travel will be achieved. The veto is inconsequential. Means, whether it be a two-speed solution or further reductions on veto powers, will be implemented. It's never been my contention the UK has too much power; that's just your puerile reading of a position.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:47 am

I wasn't mocking your position. I was using it to mock the inconsistent arguments against staying in the EU. You claim that a veto we have is too powerful. Others worry that Turkey will join and that there'll be an EU army. And now you're saying our veto is inconsequential.

Over a year since the referendum and the whole anti-EU argument is still all over the place.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:57 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Because we are a parliamentary democracy, and if a party promises to stop Brexit, or rejoin, or whatever and it wins the GE, then it has a democratic mandate to do it.

Thats how democracy works.

That's how your version of democracy works.

In reality, there is nothing more democratic than a 2 way vote that everyone gets a say in.

Looking for a loophole because you didn't get your way is not democracy

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:48 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:The reach and nature of the EU can only change with the consent of every single member nation. Or does that not matter?

Utter rubbish, IT, as well you know...

Firstly, we were sold a pup on entry to the " Common Market ", and the British people were never granted a Referendum prior to entry. We were assured at the time, that entry meant " no loss of Sovereignty " which as events have proved, was a falsehood. Over the next 45 years, British Governments of all stripes, have gradually ceded Sovereignty in many areas of our lives, without once gaining permission from the electorate. It is a generally held tenet, that a British election will grant the authority to rule for the next 4/5 years, and then that power should be then returned to the electorate, in it's entirety, at the next election. In addition, you make no mention of " Qualified Majority Voting ", by which so many European decisions are enacted..

To cap it all, the EU is now demanding that the ECJ should have ultimate juristriction over any EU nationals, living in the post-Brexit UK. No Sovereign nation on Earth has this arrangement ! It should be obvious to " A blind man on a galloping horse ", that the EU are not negotiating in good faith, and the British negotiating team should be free to have all options at it's disposal. It's clear the Labour party are playing party games, for their own advantage, instead of looking at the national interest..

Aneurin Bevan, no lover of the Tories, once put aside his own views on Nuclear Weapons, when he said, " We cannot send our Foreign Secretary, whoever he is, naked into the Conference chamber when he is negotiating ". All the political parties could learn from his words...

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:14 am

Clarets4me wrote:Utter rubbish, IT, as well you know...

Firstly, we were sold a pup on entry to the " Common Market ", and the British people were never granted a Referendum prior to entry. We were assured at the time, that entry meant " no loss of Sovereignty " which as events have proved, was a falsehood. Over the next 45 years, British Governments of all stripes, have gradually ceded Sovereignty in many areas of our lives, without once gaining permission from the electorate. It is a generally held tenet, that a British election will grant the authority to rule for the next 4/5 years, and then that power should be then returned to the electorate, in it's entirety, at the next election. In addition, you make no mention of " Qualified Majority Voting ", by which so many European decisions are enacted..

To cap it all, the EU is now demanding that the ECJ should have ultimate juristriction over any EU nationals, living in the post-Brexit UK. No Sovereign nation on Earth has this arrangement ! It should be obvious to " A blind man on a galloping horse ", that the EU are not negotiating in good faith, and the British negotiating team should be free to have all options at it's disposal. It's clear the Labour party are playing party games, for their own advantage, instead of looking at the national interest..

Aneurin Bevan, no lover of the Tories, once put aside his own views on Nuclear Weapons, when he said, " We cannot send our Foreign Secretary, whoever he is, naked into the Conference chamber when he is negotiating ". All the political parties could learn from his words...

This guy killed it.

Herts Clarets · Post by **Herts Clarets** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:52 am

Campbell posts multiple tweets on a daily basis urging Brexit be reversed. If only the rest of the country held his views on democracy when his puppet master won the election in 97. Would have saved many of the lives lost by blindly following US foreign policy, starting futile wars based on lies and making an unstable middle east several times worse. Apart from his support for the Clarets, i can think of no other redeeming factors Campbell possesses.

He supports Yaaarkshire at cricket.
He supports Scotland at international football
He supports the terrorist sympathising Corbyn

Pretty much a full house.

Heaton's Gloves · Post by **Heaton's Gloves** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:56 am

I despise Campbell with a passion. It sucks that he has any interest at all in Burnley FC.

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:09 am

Herts Clarets wrote:Campbell posts multiple tweets on a daily basis urging Brexit be reversed. If only the rest of the country held his views on democracy when his puppet master won the election in 97. Would have saved many of the lives lost by blindly following US foreign policy, starting futile wars based on lies and making an unstable middle east several times worse. Apart from his support for the Clarets, i can think of no other redeeming factors Campbell possesses.

He supports Yaaarkshire at cricket.
He supports Scotland at international football
He supports the terrorist sympathising Corbyn

Pretty much a full house.

Truly is a terrible, terrible person.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:30 am

And yet not a single person who wants brexit can point to an EU law that affects them adversely.

taio · Post by **taio** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:42 am

Spijed wrote:And yet not a single person who wants brexit can point to an EU law that affects them adversely.

Didn't vote for Brexit but free movement of workers has been referred to over and over and over again.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:49 am

taio wrote:Didn't vote for Brexit but free movement of workers has been referred to over and over and over again.

But hasn't it been pointed out many times that workers from the EU do the jobs we don't want, like cleaning toilets etc., and working in the 'black' economy, picking spuds?

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:50 am

Clarets4me wrote:It's clear the Labour party are playing party games, for their own advantage, instead of looking at the national interest.

There are a few things I disagree with in your post, but that comment is an absolute belter.

This entire fiasco has come about because of one political party putting it's own interests ahead of the national interest, and it isn't the Labour Party.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:54 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:it would, which is why it has to be done through an GE with a party promising to stop Brexit in its manifesto.

That would usually be the case in a parliamentary democracy such as ours, but since this whole mess was started with a referendum, I think it will also have to be finished with a referendum.

taio · Post by **taio** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:55 am

Spijed wrote:But hasn't it been pointed out many times that workers from the EU do the jobs we don't want, like cleaning toilets etc., and working in the 'black' economy, picking spuds?

Yes. But it's also been pointed out many times how the law on free movement has been considered detrimental for a range of reasons. Whether you agree with them or not is incidental to your original point.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:04 am

the sun is shining here in Spain and I have a great life style, what’s the problem?

Nothing wrong with that at all, but it does sound a bit selfish don't you think?

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:06 am

Spijed wrote:And yet not a single person who wants brexit can point to an EU law that affects them adversely.

I think importing the EU's unemployment problem affects every one of us- one can even get the Big issue from East European migrants

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:10 am

Trying to remain relevant like his chum Blair. I think the public have had enough of the pair of them. It's almost an embarrassment that he supports Burnley.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:22 am

Firstly, we were sold a pup on entry to the " Common Market ", and the British people were never granted a Referendum prior to entry. We were assured at the time, that entry meant " no loss of Sovereignty " which as events have proved, was a falsehood

Someone forgot there was a referendum, and it was overwhelming (thats a proper "overwhelming" as well)

Utter rubbish, IT, as well you know...

It isn't though, because of the "veto". Saying what Nigel Farage says doesn't make it true, no matter how many times he says it. Its simple points like that which derail any argument that goes down that route.

To cap it all, the EU is now demanding that the ECJ should have ultimate juristriction over any EU nationals

Again, think this is a bit of a red herring. The EU are trying to maximise the protection of the 3 million citizens they have in the UK, and I suspect that they know that they might well have to cede this one, but they won't cede this while our govt continues to use them as a negotiating tool (for something that the govt has basically said they will only do as a last resort, they do bring this up far too often for the EU to believe that is their actual position).

It should be obvious to " A blind man on a galloping horse ", that the EU are not negotiating in good faith,

Right back at you with that one. It looks to me like the UK have no real interest in getting a deal, for exactly the same reasons you have highlighted.

He supports Yaaarkshire at cricket.
He supports Scotland at international football
He supports the terrorist sympathising Corbyn

Anyone who thinks he supports Corbyn is forgetting that he's his biggest critic. A bit like me, he thinks Corbyn is better than May, but only because its Hobsons choice. Supporting Yorkshire and Scotland though......

It's clear the Labour party are playing party games, for their own advantage, instead of looking at the national interest..

As has already been said, how the hell did you type that with a straight face?

If one of our reasons for staying in is to thwart the will of the other 27, then it would be better to be out. Why hang around to try and oppose the direction of the other 27? As is constantly pointed out here and elsewhere, the intentions of the most powerful country in the bloc are entirely benign. It is, as Lancaster said only a few posts ago, modern Britain, not modern Germany, which is more like Nazi Germany.
So, as the intentions of a Franco-German grouping are benign and the European dream of Juncker et al. is broadly shared by the 27, what on earth is the UK doing constantly hampering it? Only if one believes the UK should be fully on board with increasing economic, political and military convergence does it make sense to argue for remaining in.

Different argument tried, but essentially you are taking posts out of context to build a case which is a bit more complicated than that. I've no idea just how much more the EU can unify, or expand. It can't expand into Turkey, it can't expand into Ukraine so that is probably it. I cannot see with the historical context that any of the new nations that have only recently become free from Russian domination suddenly being happy as larry in accepting the German/French alternative. I mean, you only have to read a tiny bit of history to understand that these countries should be UK allies in the EU. We are enriched by EU membership, and so are they, if only because we are a pretty big counter weight to any ideas of more integration (which I think is a red herring, but I do take your point that there is a danger that without us the federalists in the EU will be more energised)

Hard work that over my cornflakes, so hope it was worth it!

gtclaret · Post by **gtclaret** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:05 am

The problem with leaving the EU is that we are not prepared for it. David Cameron called the referendum on the certainty that we would remain. This would have been the end of the perceived UKIP threat, and would stop the problem within his own party. He wrongly thought that by using fear tactics people would keep the status quo. His government who promised this referendum for six years made no preparation for a leave vote
He misunderstood the depth of concern regarding open door immigration, which if he had dealt with, remain would have won comfortably.
We are now in a big mess, created by the most neglectful, dishonest prime minister we have ever had

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:10 am

You lost me at A...

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:12 am

Certainly a lot more clarity before the referendum was required. But we got a lot of hyperbole, and anyone who said anything remotely sensible was drowned out by the extremists on both sides.

One thing that is really clear. You can't do this is in two years.

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:13 am

gtclaret wrote:The problem with leaving the EU is that we are not prepared for it. David Cameron called the referendum on the certainty that we would remain. This would have been the end of the perceived UKIP threat, and would stop the problem within his own party. He wrongly thought that by using fear tactics people would keep the status quo. His government who promised this referendum for six years made no preparation for a leave vote
He misunderstood the depth of concern regarding open door immigration, which if he had dealt with, remain would have won comfortably.
We are now in a big mess, created by the most neglectful, dishonest prime minister we have ever had

You mean Blair, right?

I get ur point ref Cameron. But Blair is the biggest liar and fraud in western world politics since Nixon. Surely there is no argument against that???

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:17 am

That's how your version of democracy works.

Nope, thats how parliamentary democracy works, and do you know what makes you saying that worse?

You know enough about this is know that, but you don't care. Thats what Brexit does to people.

In reality, there is nothing more democratic than a 2 way vote that everyone gets a say in.

Everyone? Yup, in that case lets make sure that is the case, make people vote so its truly representative, oh, and maybe the 3 million citizens who are directly affected by it might get a chance to have a vote as well?

Looking for a loophole because you didn't get your way is not democracy

Er, its not a "loophole", its called democracy. See my above post again.

Missed this doozy when doing the other long post so apologies!

Guich · Post by **Guich** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:18 am

Alastair Cameron has never had any respect for the electorate, and never will.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:20 am

Vino blanco wrote:I was referring to your first post when you said it needed a GE to stop Brexit. I repeat, we will be out by the time of the next election.?

How can you repeat that claim with any certainty? The Tories are masters of putting their interests before all else and surviving at all costs, but to claim with any degree of certainty that a minority govt. will run for a full 5 years is at best wildly optimistic. Especially as they are propped up by a fringe party who disagree with them on many issues and have set a hard border as a red line in Ireland.
No deal = hard border, so if we reach a point where a no deal outcome is imminent, then the govt. majority could soon be wiped out.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:23 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Someone forgot there was a referendum, and it was overwhelming (thats a proper "overwhelming" as well)

The EEC referendum was after we had entered, not before.

RocketLawnChair · Post by **RocketLawnChair** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:25 am

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Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:27 am

Or we could just have an informed discussion about it before we vote.

One thing is for sure, we all know a lot more about the EU than we did two years ago!

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:28 am

"Right back at you with that one. It looks to me like the UK have no real interest in getting a deal, for exactly the same reasons you have highlighted"

Unbelieveable comment. Are you getting desperate? The EU has hardly budged on anything. Of course we want a deal. Davies is correctly playing the same game as the EU because the EU won't budge on anything yet. They will and we will get a decent deal if we keep our nerve. They need our money. People need to stop undermining our chances of getting a decent deal.

Why do so many remoaners think it is ok for the EU to have red lines, but not for us to. For example, no UK government could ever agree to the ECJ having control over anyone living here once we leave, although I'd concede it in a short transition period if that is what it takes to get a deal. The EU citzens thing ccould have been sorted a year ago if the EU had wanted it to.

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:31 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:it would, which is why it has to be done through an GE with a party promising to stop Brexit in its manifesto.

To get to such a stage requires the Conservatives actually doing something other than f**king the country over in the worst attempt at making a deal since Southampton offered us £1 million for Wayne Thomas.

Pretty much nail on the head.

Perhaps we should offer our negotiating team as we seem to be very frugal and skilled at ripping the other side off. That Wayne Thomas deal was class.

Iv no idea what game the tories are playing, but they are certainly causing all the issues with their complete lack of direction. It's like they are going to an interview without being interested in the job.

The remain side might like the idea of a GE but I'd expect UKIP to come back with avengence with many sitting Tory MPs defecting.