Alastair Campbell wants May to cancel Brexit...

[RingoMcCartney]

That's because only one of us understands you don't have to actually do something to have an informed view on what the result might be. That's an informed view, not a belief. Just another fact to help inform your view, the countries in the world with the biggest human trafficking problems are outside the EU and don't have free movement. Now that of course doesn't mean that lack of free movement equals lots of trafficking (The US for example is at the bottom end of the trafficking table). It does however add to the argument that a country having free movement or not has no impact on human trafficking and exploitation.

I've presented a number of facts that have led me to my view (not belief) on this issue, you've admitted you've got none. I'd much rather the people making the decisions on the future of our country were taking an evidence based approach to those decisions but fear that, like you, their views are based on 'belief'. It's scary!!

You're huffing n puffing Martin.

This is what you said-

"So in conclusion it’s a belief rather than anything supported by theory or evidence?"

I admitted "yes" just a belief. No evidence.

Now you have a "view"! But still no evidence.

And, it's not possible for you to have any evidence Martin.

Until we actually leave the EU and actually end free movement of people. There is none. For either side.

[Imploding Turtle]

Ringo's one of those people who think that if there's no evidence that supports their view then there's no evidence at all.

[RingoMcCartney]

I'm one of those people who believes until an event has actually happened. There can be no evidence, based on the consequences of that event, that can be produced.

It's called being logical.

As you know I don't usually engage with idiots as I find they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Move on please.

[Imploding Turtle]

Today i learned that if i was blown out of the international space station without any protection from the environment, there's literally no evidence that I would die as a consequence.

#JustRingoLogic

[Spiral]

As you know I don't usually engage with idiots as I find they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Russian A.I, everyone.

[Healeywoodclaret]

But hasn't it been pointed out many times that workers from the EU do the jobs we don't want, like cleaning toilets etc., and working in the 'black' economy, picking spuds?

Can't believe anyone is stupid enough to think that. Workers from the EU have no intention of doing the jobs we don't want to do such as cleaning toilets. Many have aspirations far far beyond that and an equal amount of other immigrants have no intention of doing any job of any description.

[martin_p]

You're huffing n puffing Martin.

This is what you said-

"So in conclusion it’s a belief rather than anything supported by theory or evidence?"

I admitted "yes" just a belief. No evidence.

Now you have a "view"! But still no evidence.

And, it's not possible for you to have any evidence Martin.

Until we actually leave the EU and actually end free movement of people. There is none. For either side.

Well I’m clearly banging my head against a brick wall here, reasoned argument being lost on you. Besides my three year old is home from nursery and I get better constructed arguments from him, so I’ll leave you to your beliefs.

[nil_desperandum]

Can't believe anyone is stupid enough to think that. Workers from the EU have no intention of doing the jobs we don't want to do such as cleaning toilets. Many have aspirations far far beyond that and an equal amount of other immigrants have no intention of doing any job of any description.

Can you provide any statistical analysis whatsover that supports your first or third points?
Your 2nd point appears to contradict 1 & 3. Of course many have high aspirations. That's why they've been coming over here for centuries - doctors, scientists, engineers, etc., and that's why there are currently such great concerns about the dramatic drop in migrants from the EU since brexit. The NHS being a prime example.
One point that you fail to mention, is that many who come over here from Eastern Europe are educated to a far higher level than that required for the job they are doing.

[Damo]

That's because only one of us understands you don't have to actually do something to have an informed view on what the result might be. That's an informed view, not a belief. Just another fact to help inform your view, the countries in the world with the biggest human trafficking problems are outside the EU and don't have free movement. Now that of course doesn't mean that lack of free movement equals lots of trafficking (The US for example is at the bottom end of the trafficking table). It does however add to the argument that a country having free movement or not has no impact on human trafficking and exploitation.

I've presented a number of facts that have led me to my view (not belief) on this issue, you've admitted you've got none. I'd much rather the people making the decisions on the future of our country were taking an evidence based approach to those decisions but fear that, like you, their views are based on 'belief'. It's scary!!

Are these other countries of a similar geographical nature to great Britain? I.e are they islands with an almost entire sea border (posting Australia and New Zealand's stats will probably shed some light as to how accurate your proof is) or are they countries with weak/not physical borders?

[IanMcL]

Time all this 'brexit' (ridiculous word befitting the outcome of a ridiculous referendum voted by folk with no idea about any issues) tripe was kicked into youch. People with a new vote would vote the other way, given the knowledge of just what has happened so far. We are run by idiots and need Europe to save us from ourselves and our ignrance.

[ClaretMoffitt]

I honestly don't think you could be more wrong there, ClaretMoffitt. The Leave side won the vote, but they haven't even come close to winning the argument, which is partly why we're in such a mess at the moment.

We aren't really in a mess are we? The worst that has happened so far is that food prices have gone up a little bit because the pound value dropped. We all knew from day one that leaving would result in 2 or 3 years of teething pains (nothing major, just minor issues that need to resolve and settle) the people who voted leave did so because they were primarily concerned with the long term direction of the country, not the short term economics of it.

[Sidney1st]

Food prices go up and the actual quantity you're buying shrinks a little.

[ClaretMoffitt]

Food prices go up and the actual quantity you're buying shrinks a little.

In fairness thats been happening for 25 years. Just look at the price and size of Freddos these days

[Sidney1st]

In fairness thats been happening for 25 years. Just look at the price and size of Freddos these days

Are we at the stage where we can blame Brexit for that yet?

[ClaretMoffitt]

Are we at the stage where we can blame Brexit for that yet?

Oh yeah, definitely.

[RingoMcCartney]

Well I’m clearly banging my head against a brick wall here, reasoned argument being lost on you. Besides my three year old is home from nursery and I get better constructed arguments from him, so I’ll leave you to your beliefs.

I have a little lad ( a 5 year old) too Martin. That's one thing we have in common.
We are Clarets, that's another.
We are both just left with a view each. A belief each. That's another.
And I, like you, have no evidence whether or not leaving the EU and ending free movement of people of people, will help stop exploitation and people trafficking. Till we actually do. There is none! That's another.
Like you, I'll leave you to your, evidence lacking, beliefs.

[RingoMcCartney]

Today i learned that if i was blown out of the international space station without any protection from the environment, there's literally no evidence that I would die as a consequence.

#JustRingoLogic

If Carlsberg did rocket launches........

[Imploding Turtle]

Imagine how embarrassing it would be for Ringo if in the past he tied an area of free movement with the kind of trafficking of illegal immigrants that he now claims that there is no evidence that ending free movement would help stop.

The European Union Schengen Zone- proud sponsor of the free movement of illegal immigrants. Free movement of illegal arms. Free movement of murderous blood lusting terrorists.

Merry Christmas from Mamma Merkel ......

[RingoMcCartney]

Imagine how embarrassing it would be for Ringo if in the past he tied an area of free movement with the kind of trafficking of illegal immigrants that he now claims that there is no evidence that ending free movement would help stop.

No embaresment. No evidence. Just belief it would help stop exploitation, people trafficking and terrorism. Thanks for doing the research that actually backs up my point.That shows im being consistent.

Cheers!

If your gonna crawl over posts from yonks back to claim it'll embarrass me. Do try and get something that actually could embarrass me rather than embarrassing yourself!

[CrosspoolClarets]

I’ve just returned to this thread after 24 hours, and reviewed the Marmite responses to my post yesterday, essentially inviting people to emphasise why some Brexiteers don’t enjoy many aspects of Britain today. What I’ve concluded is that Brexit has exposed a huge divide down society (no news that) between people who ordinarily would enjoy a good chat together about many topics, but tellingly, not topics covered in this thread.

Some people don’t “get it” about why society now is worse than decades ago for many people. Other’s don’t care. Other’s feel Britain can be changed for the better after Brexit. Some are just kicking the establishment in the ********. Some voted because of the impact on other people (me), others voted because of the impact on themselves and their family.

There will be no changing these views, whatever the economic debate goes like, no matter how much the EU-funded OECD publish reports urging a second referendum in effect. Politicians know this and are treading very carefully indeed. This could cause a schism in B4itish politics the likes of which we haven’t seen in our lifetimes. Not necessarily for the better. Brexit HAS to happen to avoid ripping the country apart, and the likes of Campbell and Cable are being incredibly reckless, just for a 10 year (to use Lancaster’s earlier prediction) economic gain.

(P.s. I’ve just been out for dinner here in Jersey where I am working this week, and chatted to a Jerseyite (outside the EU but piggyback into it), a Portugese, Spaniard, Latvian and Dane. Three of the five were delighted we are Brexiting and all expressed very different opinions for why they want to stay in the EU if they are in it already. For example the Spaniard doesn’t want Franco Mark 2. These countries are very different to us in their rationale, and have much bigger reasons for wanting it, we just want a few more quid and free movement. A fun evening.)

[Bordeauxclaret]

Ashamed thaf this tUrd is a Burnley fan. Horrible character.

You’ll really have to let people know who you are referring to here. Just by reading this thread it could be Campbell or about ten others!

[Imploding Turtle]

Ringo, you used to claim that the Schengen Zone promoted the free movement of illegal immigrants. Now you're arguing that there's no evidence that it promotes the free movement of illegal immigrants.

So are you saying you were just making it up when you said it the first time, or are you saying you're making it up now when you say there's no evidence?

[RingoMcCartney]

Ringo, you used to claim that the Schengen Zone promoted the free movement of illegal immigrants. Now you're arguing that there's no evidence that it promotes the free movement of illegal immigrants.

So are you saying you were just making it up when you said it the first time, or are you saying you're making it up now when you say there's no evidence?

Enjoy that particular rabbit hole.

[bennitor]

I was going to watch a film tonight and this thread just lured me in. Dammit!

I just wanted to add a Brexit perspective that is hard to appreciate unless you've experienced it, and in a small way I've been lucky enough to. I'll hold my hands up now and confess that I was, and still am, a huge remainer. Seeing our country being torn apart from within is one of the saddest things I've ever experienced - especially considering that the "will of the people" was arrived at through a misguided referendum held by David Cameron to feather his own nest.

I've been fortunate enough to work in Brussels. I've sat around the negotiating table behind the UK flag and been genuinely proud to sit and represent our country, predominantly prior to the vote but for a short spell afterwards too. And the saddest thing about it all for me, is how well respected we were within the EU community and how valued our contribution was to all the other member states. We were seen as leaders, innovators and progressives - which is hard to believe now!!! Colleagues from across the EU would seek the UK's counsel in the margins, would take the lead from us and would defer to our experience and knowledge. When I spoke, I knew people wanted to hear the UK viewpoint and valued what we brought to the table.

I was in Europe the day before and the day after the vote. Walking back into the meeting room the morning after, I was met with a wave of sadness from colleagues I knew and from those that I didn't. It wasn't sadness that the EU would be our losing money or sadness about the divorce process that was to come, it was genuine and heartfelt upset because they knew the UK made the EU a better place - together, and that our contributions would be missed.

My work was particularly focused on law enforcement and all I would say to anybody who thinks Brexit will make us a better and safer country is this. Prior to Brexit, our borders were at the far reaches of the EU and the Schengen zone because of the very fact that we were in the EU and had those countries as a buffer. We shared intelligence with them and as soon as they were aware of threats to us or the wider EU we would know about them. As soon as we leave the EU - especially if that is with no deal, those borders will shrink away and the threats we face will move from the eastern edges of Romania and Poland and Greece and Bulgaria to be right on our doorstep. And if we lose access to the European intelligence networks we are currently part of, then there is the potential that we will be sat here knowing nothing about those threats. Everything that is good about our safety and security comes from sharing information, intelligence and from cooperation and liasion with our EU counterparts. And that is what we stand to lose. Is it any wonder that Theresa May has already rowed back on her earlier stance, to say that our desire for security cooperation with the EU is now unconditional?

The "our farmers will just grow more food" school of thought is one of the scariest I've heard, yet that is what is being peddled by the people who are negotiating our exit. Sure the EU has its problems. It can be unwieldy and overly-bureaucratic - but it's much better being in that club trying to improve it from within when you have a valued say on things, than looking in from the outside through the window with absolutely nothing you can do.

[Rileybobs]

I'm one of those people who believes until an event has actually happened. There can be no evidence, based on the consequences of that event, that can be produced.

Planes will fly after Brexit.

[Imploding Turtle]

Planes will fly after Brexit.

No evidence for such a belief. We have to wait till Brexit happens to know.

[martin_p]

I was going to watch a film tonight and this thread just lured me in. Dammit!

I just wanted to add a Brexit perspective that is hard to appreciate unless you've experienced it, and in a small way I've been lucky enough to. I'll hold my hands up now and confess that I was, and still am, a huge remainer. Seeing our country being torn apart from within is one of the saddest things I've ever experienced - especially considering that the "will of the people" was arrived at through a misguided referendum held by David Cameron to feather his own nest.

I've been fortunate enough to work in Brussels. I've sat around the negotiating table behind the UK flag and been genuinely proud to sit and represent our country, predominantly prior to the vote but for a short spell afterwards too. And the saddest thing about it all for me, is how well respected we were within the EU community and how valued our contribution was to all the other member states. We were seen as leaders, innovators and progressives - which is hard to believe now!!! Colleagues from across the EU would seek the UK's counsel in the margins, would take the lead from us and would defer to our experience and knowledge. When I spoke, I knew people wanted to hear the UK viewpoint and valued what we brought to the table.

I was in Europe the day before and the day after the vote. Walking back into the meeting room the morning after, I was met with a wave of sadness from colleagues I knew and from those that I didn't. It wasn't sadness that the EU would be our losing money or sadness about the divorce process that was to come, it was genuine and heartfelt upset because they knew the UK made the EU a better place - together, and that our contributions would be missed.

My work was particularly focused on law enforcement and all I would say to anybody who thinks Brexit will make us a better and safer country is this. Prior to Brexit, our borders were at the far reaches of the EU and the Schengen zone because of the very fact that we were in the EU and had those countries as a buffer. We shared intelligence with them and as soon as they were aware of threats to us or the wider EU we would know about them. As soon as we leave the EU - especially if that is with no deal, those borders will shrink away and the threats we face will move from the eastern edges of Romania and Poland and Greece and Bulgaria to be right on our doorstep. And if we lose access to the European intelligence networks we are currently part of, then there is the potential that we will be sat here knowing nothing about those threats. Everything that is good about our safety and security comes from sharing information, intelligence and from cooperation and liasion with our EU counterparts. And that is what we stand to lose. Is it any wonder that Theresa May has already rowed back on her earlier stance, to say that our desire for security cooperation with the EU is now unconditional?

The "our farmers will just grow more food" school of thought is one of the scariest I've heard, yet that is what is being peddled by the people who are negotiating our exit. Sure the EU has its problems. It can be unwieldy and overly-bureaucratic - but it's much better being in that club trying to improve it from within when you have a valued say on things, than looking in from the outside through the window with absolutely nothing you can do.

Well this certainly seems to be the most informed view on here. Unfortunately for many belief trumps informed view, Brexit for many has become a religion!

And the loss of shared intelligence won’t worry people who believe there can’t be evidence for a thing until it’s actually happened.

[Damo]

When i voted leave, i never thought about the poor little EU employees that might be upset about the result.

I feel a little guilty now if I'm honest

[dsr]

My work was particularly focused on law enforcement and all I would say to anybody who thinks Brexit will make us a better and safer country is this. Prior to Brexit, our borders were at the far reaches of the EU and the Schengen zone because of the very fact that we were in the EU and had those countries as a buffer. We shared intelligence with them and as soon as they were aware of threats to us or the wider EU we would know about them. As soon as we leave the EU - especially if that is with no deal, those borders will shrink away and the threats we face will move from the eastern edges of Romania and Poland and Greece and Bulgaria to be right on our doorstep. And if we lose access to the European intelligence networks we are currently part of, then there is the potential that we will be sat here knowing nothing about those threats. Everything that is good about our safety and security comes from sharing information, intelligence and from cooperation and liasion with our EU counterparts. And that is what we stand to lose. Is it any wonder that Theresa May has already rowed back on her earlier stance, to say that our desire for security cooperation with the EU is now unconditional?

I agree that security ought to be one of the first things talked about, especially as it isn't an EU-centred subject anyway. I'm sure that the likes of Switzerland and Norway are kept in the loop and share their information too; it's not an economic thing at all.

Unfortunately all the EU wants to talk about is how much money they can get from us, how far to restrict reciprocal EU/UK citizens' rights, and how exactly the Irish border will be managed after the split. They won't talk about other relevant stuff - not even security - until they reckon significant progress has been made on the first three. There's a lot to discuss, and too much isn't being discussed.

[bennitor]

They weren't EU employees. They were all from law enforcement in their relevant countries.

It's interesting that your comeback (and I'm not saying my viewpoint is right - it's my own, formed from my own experience, you're entitled to your own...) ignores the rest of the post.

It's a little like the head in the sand attitude of those in-charge of exiting the Union. They hear and see what they want to hear - forget about all the other inconveniences.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Maybe if the EU hadn’t valued our input so much it shouldn’t have taken our net £12bn p.a. or whatever it is and circulated it to countries to spend on empty airports and motorways (every penny spent on the UK is of course from our own coffers, even if it has the EU flag on the notice).

I am sure we are valued for our expertise in some EU circles, but they have, frankly, taken that for granted. The EU bans so many ways of prioritising one’s own country, no wonder nationalism (note, not extreme nationalism which would always be there anyway) springs up.

Security is obviously a factor as the above poster references, which I respect, but things that affect our lives every day dwarf things that may, if we are unlucky, affect our lives once a year.

[RingoMcCartney]

Planes will fly after Brexit.

I agree with that. There can't be any evidence, as it hasn't happened yet. But it doesn't stop me believing it.

Just like my argument with Martin p. He asked me did any evidence that ending free movement of people would help stop exploitation and people trafficking? I said no. Neither could did he. We are both left with simply holding views or beliefs.

Like Martin you cannot provide evidence that planes WONT fly after Brexit. It hasn't happened.

[nil_desperandum]

When i voted leave, i never thought about the poor little EU employees that might be upset about the result.

I feel a little guilty now if I'm honest

Obviously a reference to post 374, but how do you know from that that he is "an employee" of the EU? He could be a part of the British security or intelligence service working on your behalf with European partners. One would hope that this will continue, for all the reasons he stated.
Edit: Bennitor already confirmed this whilst I was typing.

[bennitor]

I agree that security ought to be one of the first things talked about, especially as it isn't an EU-centred subject anyway. I'm sure that the likes of Switzerland and Norway are kept in the loop and share their information too; it's not an economic thing at all.

They do in a sense, yes but as third party members (Europol for example) which means they are bound by organisational rules and regulations in which they have no say.

Neither Norway or Switzerland have the European Arrest Warrant. In 2015/16 the UK extradited more than 2000 wanted European criminals on EAWs. If we leave the EU then we lose that tool as well in all likelihood.

Insular, inwards-looking politics is all well and good when we are curled up in the foetal position - until we start to realise what leaving actually entails.

[Damo]

They weren't EU employees. They were all from law enforcement in their relevant countries.

It's interesting that your comeback (and I'm not saying my viewpoint is right - it's my own, formed from my own experience, you're entitled to your own...) ignores the rest of the post.

It's a little like the head in the sand attitude of those in-charge of exiting the Union. They hear and see what they want to hear - forget about all the other inconveniences.

If you search through my comments you will probably find my opinion on most things you covered.
I can't really be arsed going over them again

[nil_desperandum]

If you search through my comments you will probably find my opinion on most things you covered.
I can't really be arsed going over them again

So , no acknowledgement then that you were totally wrong about the nature of bennitor's work - on your behalf - in Brussels?
I assumed from his post that he might be part of a British team working on our behalf. You jumped to the conclusion that he was on the EU gravy train.Funny how people read a post and reach totally opposite conclusions.

[bennitor]

Damo, I've read your opinion and taken it on board - I like to know why people voted leave as much as I like to champion the remain cause.

The interesting thing is, there are three camps in all of this. Two camps - one for remain and one for leave - both of which contain people like you and like me - i.e. people who have done their own research, made up their own minds and who will stay in their own camp no matter what the other side says. The immovable ones. I will never be a leaver and you will never be a remainer. Fair enough.

The third camp though is the one that matters. The flexible camp. The ones whose vote wasn't decided on knowledge or experience or research. The ones who voted without knowing what it really meant. And the saddest part is that they voted based on what they read in the papers and what they saw on TV. They followed the big personalities (Farage and Boris) and they swallowed the big soundbites - ask anyone what is the one promise they remember from the debates and I can guarantee it will be £350 million - all of which will go back to the NHS. The same promise Farage reneged on, the day after the result. Theirs was a protest vote against years of Tory austerity. Or the "my life is **** anyway, so I may as well vote to leave - what is there to lose" school of thought.

I wasn't lied to because I understand (most) of the issues. The cruel thing is that the people who will lose out when inflation rises and the cost of food and general living increases, will most likely be those 'flexible voters' who craved some sort of change to their crap lives anyway.

[dsr]

Neither Norway or Switzerland have the European Arrest Warrant. In 2015/16 the UK extradited more than 2000 wanted European criminals on EAWs. If we leave the EU then we lose that tool as well in all likelihood.

That's a good thing IMO. If we don't have enough evidence to get an extradition in the usual way, that's obviously a disadvantage, but the big advantage is that foreign countries that want to extradite UK citizens without proper evidence won't be able to. As a UK citizen, I can't be arrested and kept in jail indefinitely without being charged - except of course I can, if France thinks I might have done something. The abolition of the EAW is IMO one of the advantages of leaving the EU.

[RingoMcCartney]

Well this certainly seems to be the most informed view on here. Unfortunately for many belief trumps informed view, Brexit for many has become a religion!

And the loss of shared intelligence won’t worry people who believe there can’t be evidence for a thing until it’s actually happened.

Martin. Please produce a document or an attachment or something that can be seen on this thread thats titled -

"The effects of people trafficking and modern day slavery, SINCE the the UK left the EU and ended free movement of people rules"

I'm gonna be fair. Given we don't leave the EU till 2019, and there could be a transition of say 2 years, where we still have free movement of people rules.

Plus, there needs to time to gather and process the information required, once we end free movement.

I'll give you time to get back to me the details of the actual evidence on the UK.

5 years should do it. Cos till then there cannot be any evidence that would be specific to that title.

See you then!!!!

[bennitor]

That's a good thing IMO. If we don't have enough evidence to get an extradition in the usual way, that's obviously a disadvantage, but the big advantage is that foreign countries that want to extradite UK citizens without proper evidence won't be able to. As a UK citizen, I can't be arrested and kept in jail indefinitely without being charged - except of course I can, if France thinks I might have done something. The abolition of the EAW is IMO one of the advantages of leaving the EU.

This is the argument that is peddled by Dominic Raab and a handful of other MPs - but it doesn't hold water I'm afraid. I don't have exact numbers to hand but the extradition from the UK to other EU countries of UK nationals is just less than 4% - meaning 96% of extraditions are of other EU nationals. Every extradition from the UK goes through a UK court to ensure that the request from a foreign jurisdiction is proportionate - and warrants will be discharged and rendered unenforceable if they aren't. There are rules in place to stop other countries from adding extra charges after extradition as well. Trust me - we do pretty well out of the EAW. I'd prefer to have the ability to get rid of a murderer/rapist (from an undefined EU member state) out of my local community, rather than worrying about a foreign country extraditing me without 'proper evidence'...

[Imploding Turtle]

That's a good thing IMO. If we don't have enough evidence to get an extradition in the usual way, that's obviously a disadvantage, but the big advantage is that foreign countries that want to extradite UK citizens without proper evidence won't be able to. As a UK citizen, I can't be arrested and kept in jail indefinitely without being charged - except of course I can, if France thinks I might have done something. The abolition of the EAW is IMO one of the advantages of leaving the EU.

What on earth makes you think the EAW isn't issued without "proper evidence"? And the EAW isn't an extradition order. You still have to be extradited after you've been arrested.

Edit: nvm. You've already been informed. Not that it'll matter with you, of course.

[If it be your will]

.

[martin_p]

Martin. Please produce a document or an attachment or something that can be seen on this thread thats titled -

"The effects of people trafficking and modern day slavery, SINCE the the UK left the EU and ended free movement of people rules"

I'm gonna be fair. Given we don't leave the EU till 2019, and there could be a transition of say 2 years, where we still have free movement of people rules.

Plus, there needs to time to gather and process the information required, once we end free movement.

I'll give you time to get back to me the details of the actual evidence on the UK.

5 years should do it. Cos till then there cannot be any evidence that would be specific to that title.

See you then!!!!

There’s really no point in debating with you Ringo as you don’t seem to know what the word evidence means. You only see it as something that can apply to things that have happened (which is indeed one use). To help you out here is an example of a use of the word from the online ne Cambridge Dictionary - ‘All the evidence points to a substantial rise in traffic over the next few years’.

So you see we can use things that have happened or are happening to predict the future. So the facts I gave you showing there’s no correlation between free movement and trafficking does in fact qualify as evidence that ending free movement in the UK is unlikely to have an impact on trafficking here.

[Bin Ont Turf]

So the facts I gave you showing there’s no correlation between free movement and trafficking does in fact qualify as evidence that ending free movement in the UK is unlikely to have an impact on trafficking here.

[bennitor]

I do take slight issue that among all the positives of the EU, there was only one negative: Sure the EU has its problems. It can be unwieldy and overly-bureaucratic

And a good post in return. I should clarify - the unwieldy and overly-bureaucratic nature was a reflection of my own personal experiences of it, rather than the only negative in existence.

This does highlight for me, one of the key problems with putting the referendum to the British public in the first place. The vote itself turned into a question of "Is the EU perfect or not?" rather than "Is leaving the EU actually going to be good the future of our country" - and the former is what a lot of people considered when they voted.

No the EU is far from perfect - from the issue you raise to numerous others. But does the EU provide us with peace, security, free movement and trade. Yes it does. Hence my own belief that you work from inside to improve and develop something, than sitting outside of that and losing the benefits it brings.

[martin_p]

Come on have a go at a reasoned response!

Unfortunately your response is typical of the Brexit crew, no attempt at discourse when the argument isn’t going their way, just reverting to childish LOLs and ‘you lost get over it’ type quotes. It doesn’t do you any favours.

[RingoMcCartney]

There’s really no point in debating with you Ringo as you don’t seem to know what the word evidence means. You only see it as something that can apply to things that have happened (which is indeed one use). To help you out here is an example of a use of the word from the online ne Cambridge Dictionary - ‘All the evidence points to a substantial rise in traffic over the next few years’.

Do you see we can use things that have happened or are happening to predict the future. So the facts I gave you showing there’s no correlation between free movement and trafficking does in fact qualify as evidence that ending free movement in the UK is unlikely to have an impact on trafficking here.

"you see we can use things that HAVE happened or ARE happening to predict the future.

Your words Martin, your words.

Has brexit HAPPENED? No.

Is the ending of free movement of people into the UK HAPPENING? No.

Therefore to use your own words. "we can use things that have happened or are happening to predict the future."

Only when it actually HAPPENS or is HAPPENING will you be able to predict the future.

""The effects of people trafficking and modern day slavery, SINCE the the UK left the EU and ended free movement of people rules" The key word is SINCE.

See you in 5 years Martin!

[Imploding Turtle]

Giving BoT the benefit of the doubt, i think he might find it funny that you had to explain that to Ringo.

[martin_p]

"you see we can use things that HAVE happened or ARE happening to predict the future.

Your words Martin, your words.

Has brexit HAPPENED? No.

Has the ending of free movement of people into the UK HAPPENED? No.

Therefore to use your own words. "we can use things that have happened or are happening to predict the future."

Only when it actually HAPPENS or is HAPPENING will you be able to predict the future.

See you in 5 years Martin!

Jesus you’re seriously hard work. The point I was making is that lots of parts of the world already don’t have free movement and some do better than the UK on traffickers and lots do worse.

[martin_p]

Giving BoT the benefit of the doubt, i think he might find it funny that you had to explain that to Ringo.

If so I apologise.