More post brexit referendum good news!!!!

[Lancasterclaret]

That did make me giggle to be fair (both Ringos post and UTBs)

[RingoMcCartney]

It's a simple concept Ringo. Someone asks you a question and you're supposed to answer it, not ask the questioner to tell you what the answer is.

For the 2nd time. It's the formation of an EU army. Please do try and keep up. But thanks for being around. Your presence is always welcome for it's comedy value!

[Tall Paul]

Field Marshall! You appear to try and claim what it's NOT. But despite repeated attempts, you seem totally unable to say what it IS. Have you taken leave of your senses man!? Its a dereliction of duty soldier!!

He's already told you, you clown.

I repeat the devil is in the detail Ringo.

I know exactly what was agreed by the EU. Its not a European army.

Its the preparation work for a potential EU force at most, and a sensible funding deal for weapons specification and development

[Lancasterclaret]

I'm genuinely LOLing at the idea that an EU force would be somehow separate from NATO btw.

Can anyone name a situation where an EU army (if one ever existed) would have an issue that also would not be an NATO issue?

The only I can think of is if NATO or the EU went rogue, which is about as likely as Ringo admitting he's wrong and voting remain.

[aggi]

No lie whatsoever!!!!!!

"Remaining EU countries agree to plan to integrate their military forces after Brexit"

"http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 11311.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 11311.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Even the Remaoner bible, The Independent, agrees with my opinion that national armys are being integrated to form an EU army!!!!

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press ... -on-pesco/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's called PESCO. It's the EU army!!!! Hey Presto!!

Nope, I'm not seeing anything saying that if we stayed in the EU ... an EU army, presumably lead by Jean Claude Drunker ... has been agreed to in Brussels. In fact the links have many references to after Brexit. Come on Ringo, evidence.

From the link you provided However, participation remains voluntary and decision-making will remain in the hands of participating Member States.

https://eeas.europa.eu/sites/eeas/files ... -2017_.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RingoMcCartney]

He's already told you, you clown.

He said "Its the preparation work for a potential EU force "

Now. How is that any different to me saying it's the beginning of an EU army? You clown.

[UpTheBeehole]

'potential'

[Tall Paul]

'at most'

[RingoMcCartney]

Nope, I'm not seeing anything saying that if we stayed in the EU ... an EU army, presumably lead by Jean Claude Drunker ... has been agreed to in Brussels. In fact the links have many references to after Brexit. Come on Ringo, evidence.

I said that even people who voted Remain, would not want to be part of an EU army. You actually agreed!

PESCO which is Permanent Structured Cooperation actually leaves the door open for Britain to join.

"Non-EU states, like Britain in the future, will be able to join the programme, but only after negotiations and with agreement on providing funds"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 11311.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RingoMcCartney]

'at most'

Yes I can see you can spell.

How is it any different?

"Its the preparation work for a potential EU force, at most"

"There's going to be an EU army"

[Tall Paul]

Yes I can see you can spell.

How is it any different?

It's different because what you actually said was that the EU have agreed to form an army led by "Drunker" and what Lancaster said wasn't.

Alternative answer - it's just my opinion, so there!

[RingoMcCartney]

I'm genuinely LOLing at the idea that an EU force would be somehow separate from NATO btw.

Can anyone name a situation where an EU army (if one ever existed) would have an issue that also would not be an NATO issue?

The only I can think of is if NATO or the EU went rogue, which is about as likely as Ringo admitting he's wrong and voting remain.

When will you finally admit that you don't want to answer my question Lancaster?

Final final time. You're starting to look slightly cowardly

What is an "autonomous capacity for action" Lancs?

What does president Macron actually mean when he says, ""autonomous capacity for action" through a joint military force."?

"I know exactly what it means, because if I've got a thing (apart from football!) its military." You boasted Lancaster claret.

What is it?............

[aggi]

I said that even people who voted Remain, would not want to be part of an EU army. You actually agreed!

PESCO which is Permanent Structured Cooperation actually leaves the door open for Britain to join.

"Non-EU states, like Britain in the future, will be able to join the programme, but only after negotiations and with agreement on providing funds"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 11311.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I mean, did you even read your links:
However, participation remains voluntary and decision-making will remain in the hands of participating Member States.

PESCO will have a two-layer structure:

Council Level: Responsible for the overall policy direction and assessment mechanism to determine if Member States are fulfilling their commitments.
Only PESCO members are voting, decisions are taken by unanimity (except decisions regarding the suspension of membership and entry of new members which are taken by qualified majority).

Projects Level: PESCO's effectiveness will be measured by the projects it will develop. Each project will be managed by those Member States that contribute to it.

PESCO is designed to make European defence more efficient and to deliver more output by providing enhanced coordination and collaboration in the areas of investment, capability development and operational readiness. Enhanced cooperation in this domain will allow decreasing the number of different weapons' systems in Europe, and therefore strengthen operational cooperation among Member States, increase interoperability and industrial competitiveness.

Military capacities developed within PESCO remain in the hands of Member States that can also make them available in other contexts such as NATO or the UN.

And my favouriteWhilst PESCO is underpinned by the idea that sovereignty can be better exercised when working together, national sovereignty remains effectively untouched

That sounds like a rubbish EU army and there is no indication it would be lead by Juncker. It's almost as if you made up: if we stayed in the EU ... an EU army, presumably lead by Jean Claude Drunker ... has been agreed to in Brussels.

[RingoMcCartney]

It's different because what you actually said was that the EU have agreed to form an army led by "Drunker" and what Lancaster said wasn't.

Alternative answer - it's just my opinion, so there!

There is essentially zero difference.

You, just don't like to admit that the majority of Britons would shudder at the prospect of our defence forces being at the behest of the incompetent buffoon Drunker!

[RingoMcCartney]

I mean, did you even read your links:
However, participation remains voluntary and decision-making will remain in the hands of participating Member States.

PESCO will have a two-layer structure:

Council Level: Responsible for the overall policy direction and assessment mechanism to determine if Member States are fulfilling their commitments.
Only PESCO members are voting, decisions are taken by unanimity (except decisions regarding the suspension of membership and entry of new members which are taken by qualified majority).

Projects Level: PESCO's effectiveness will be measured by the projects it will develop. Each project will be managed by those Member States that contribute to it.

PESCO is designed to make European defence more efficient and to deliver more output by providing enhanced coordination and collaboration in the areas of investment, capability development and operational readiness. Enhanced cooperation in this domain will allow decreasing the number of different weapons' systems in Europe, and therefore strengthen operational cooperation among Member States, increase interoperability and industrial competitiveness.

Military capacities developed within PESCO remain in the hands of Member States that can also make them available in other contexts such as NATO or the UN.

And my favouriteWhilst PESCO is underpinned by the idea that sovereignty can be better exercised when working together, national sovereignty remains effectively untouched

That sounds like a rubbish EU army and there is no indication it would be lead by Juncker. It's almost as if you made up: if we stayed in the EU ... an EU army, presumably lead by Jean Claude Drunker ... has been agreed to in Brussels.

You like to use my quote- "if we stayed in the EU ... an EU army, presumably lead by Jean Claude Drunker .."

So I presumed it would be lead by Drunker. Perhaps my presumption was wrong. If I'm wrong , it's no biggy. But given he's the president.....
Never the less, it's been agreed. It's a done deal. Its permanent.

In a nutshell. The integration of European armies has officially happened. We can join later. The public would baulk at it.

Clegg previously described it an EU army as a "dangerous fantasy"

Was it?

Or was arch federalist Mogherini being more honest when she boasted a European Union of Security and Defence” was ”not a dream anymore, it is reality coming true”?

If genuinely like your opinion on these 2 comments.

[RingoMcCartney]

"President Drunker!!!! President Drunker!!!! Come quick!!!! Look!!! Somebody's broke into your brandy cabinet!!! We believe it's the Russians what done it!!!!!" Says Euro-underling.

"Zis iss an act of aggression!!!!!Tell my soldiers!!! Fix bayonets!!!! Zey are going In!!!!!, Drunker.

[aggi]

You like to use my quote- "if we stayed in the EU ... an EU army, presumably lead by Jean Claude Drunker .."

So I presumed it would be lead by Drunker. Perhaps my presumption was wrong. If I'm wrong , it's no biggy. But given he's the president.....
Never the less, it's been agreed. It's a done deal. Its permanent.

In a nutshell. The integration of European armies has officially happened. We can join later. The public would baulk at it.

Clegg previously described it an EU army as a "dangerous fantasy"

Was it?

Or was arch federalist Mogherini being more honest when she boasted a European Union of Security and Defence” was ”not a dream anymore, it is reality coming true”?

If genuinely like your opinion on these 2 comments.

Clegg previously described it an EU army as a "dangerous fantasy"

Was it?

Yes, read the detail on PESCO (or even just the bits I've quoted). It's not an EU army. People like Nigel Farage may claim it is but they either haven't read the actual detail or they are just exaggerating to make a political point (or both I suspect). It's a nice catchphrase, stay in the EU and we'll have to join an EU army but it is ******** on so many levels.

Or was arch federalist Mogherini being more honest when she boasted a European Union of Security and Defence” was ”not a dream anymore, it is reality coming true”?

Have you read the full speech? It points out that any attempt to have an EU army would fail so they are not taking that path. There is large emphasis on budgetary efficiency by being able to buy jointly and co-ordinate spending.

Do you believe that NATO is a North Atlantic army?

[RingoMcCartney]

Clegg previously described it an EU army as a "dangerous fantasy"

Was it?

Yes, read the detail on PESCO (or even just the bits I've quoted). It's not an EU army. People like Nigel Farage may claim it is but they either haven't read the actual detail or they are just exaggerating to make a political point (or both I suspect). It's a nice catchphrase, stay in the EU and we'll have to join an EU army but it is ******** on so many levels.

Or was arch federalist Mogherini being more honest when she boasted a European Union of Security and Defence” was ”not a dream anymore, it is reality coming true”?

Have you read the full speech? It points out that any attempt to have an EU army would fail so they are not taking that path. There is large emphasis on budgetary efficiency by being able to buy jointly and co-ordinate spending.

Do you believe that NATO is a North Atlantic army?

It's not an EU army!?

It's an integrated military defence force made up of EU nations. You do realise that it's likely to have guns, tanks, ships and planes don't you!?

If it looks, acts and behaves like an EU army. It is for all practical purposes it's an EU army. Simply cos you refuse to see it that way, doesn't mean that the rabid euro federalists dont. And with genuine respect, their increasingly emboldened opinions are more important, and concerning, than yours.

[CrosspoolClarets]

If it comes down to it though, it has to be hard brexit, or there would be uproar. Bear on mind 65% of people either want to leave or be in a EU with reduced central powers. That ain’t going to change, and the latter ain’t going to happen. The tide in the UK is only going one way, May sees that, luckily.

Thats a hell of an assumption, and contrary to any polling.

And the dismissal of the concept of parliamentary sovereignty is a worry as well.

It is far from contrary to any polling Lancaster. The top two rows on this social attitudes survey give the 65%, row 3 is not getting what they want either if Macron gets his way. You could hypothesise that a large chunk of Remain voters would be tempted to leave in the right circumstances due to dissatisfaction with the EU's direction (obviously economics being the main circumstance). May knows this, she can't risk single market continuing, and she can't risk a hard Brexit either. It's a unique free trade deal, or resign.

Well stated, Crosspool. Can I add another, which is one of the reasons I voted 'leave'?

7. The southern European countries are in a parlous state economically, with massive debt (particularly Greece) and very high unemployment rates (over 40%), especially amongst the young. Long-term unemployment is also worryingly high in Greece and Italy. At some stage there could well be a bale-out or some other major eruption (Greece exiting the EU? Greece going back to the drachma and de-valuing?) and if/when this happens I would prefer the UK to be out rather than in. People talk about the massive risks economically in Brexiting (yes, I agree). For me there are equally high risks in remaining.

I see there has also been a bit of argy bargy about this post since I was last on.

My bedtime reading at the moment is Adults In The Room by Yanis Varoufakis, about his time as Greece Finance Minister in 2015. Yes, I'm sad like that (but it does put you to sleep). The only reason they didn't default is because their PM wobbled and Merkel conned him then stabbed him in the back (paraphrasing Varoufakis who wanted to stay firm and default). I view a default as inevitable, by one country or another, and I view a full blown Euro crisis as equally inevitable, dragging in Germany, who Varoufakis believes want to impose austerity across the Eurozone using Greece as a template.

The further away from that we are, the better. I think you are very wise Upanatem for adding that one.

[Bordeauxclaret]

What if this newly agreed army attacks us after Brexit?

We are going to need a hero. One man who can stand alone and save us all...

[Lancasterclaret]

Don't be embarrassed about it Crosspool, I'm about to read something by David Glantz on the Battle of Smolensk and he goes into so much detail that its almost impossible to keep up to where everybody is, but also for even a really keen student like me, a bit dull!

My only issue with what you are saying (well two actually)

Varoufakis is a remainer, he's not wanting to leave the EU so despite all that has happened he wants to stay in it. That says a hell of lot.

Single Market membership is popular, custom union membership is essential (and would be popular if everyone knew exactly what it meant)

I suspect we'd have to re-negotiate to stay in one or both of them and it wouldn't be easy, but it would certainly solve a lot of my concerns about Brexit.

Not a lot on there about a Euro default not affecting us though I see. We wouldn't have to contribute as we are not in the Euro (kinda irrelevant now as we are leaving but still!)

[aggi]

It's not an EU army!?

It's an integrated military defence force made up of EU nations. You do realise that it's likely to have guns, tanks, ships and planes don't you!?

If it looks, acts and behaves like an EU army. It is for all practical purposes it's an EU army. Simply cos you refuse to see it that way, doesn't mean that the rabid euro federalists dont. And with genuine respect, their increasingly emboldened opinions are more important, and concerning, than yours.

It's an integrated military defence force made up of EU nations. You do realise that it's likely to have guns, tanks, ships and planes don't you!?

It's not and it won't. You clearly haven't read the detail which doesn't surprise me at all. It's not my opinion, it's based on actual documentation from the EU. Show me evidence that supports your opinion.

Also, you didn't answer the question about NATO. Is that a North Atlantic Army?

[RingoMcCartney]

It's an integrated military defence force made up of EU nations. You do realise that it's likely to have guns, tanks, ships and planes don't you!?

It's not and it won't. You clearly haven't read the detail which doesn't surprise me at all. It's not my opinion, it's based on actual documentation from the EU. Show me evidence that supports your opinion.

Also, you didn't answer the question about NATO. Is that a North Atlantic Army?

NATO?

Well, let's say you were in Russia, looking at NATO manoeuvres and exercises through binoculars, on your side of the East/West European border. You could ask yourself 2 questions.

Is that a combined defence force made up from various nations?

Or

Is that a North Atlantic Army?

Either way, the potential consequences for aggression, from either side, would be the same. Regardless of what name it's given.

One man's terrorist, is another man's "freedom fighter". The result of their actions can be bloody carnage, regardless of the label.

As I said earlier the top brass have expressed concerns about anything that rivals NATO. Split loyalties, commitments and the potential to stretch already stretched finacies and manpower even thinner.

It all boils down to opinions. In my opinion anything resembling an EU army should be avoided. It's an opinion that I feel the majority of the UK population shares.

[UpTheBeehole]

Ringo only deals in soundbites. He hasn't a f*cking clue about things like 'evidence' and 'detail'

[Lancasterclaret]

I'm struggling here Ringo as you are being so vague.

I certainly wouldn't say it looks like you are winging this, but lots of people will do.

So this EU Army (which you believe exists and no one else does) is the same as NATO?

[RingoMcCartney]

Ringo only deals in soundbites. He hasn't a f*cking clue about things like 'evidence' and 'detail'

It's the foul mouthed toddler, uphisownhole!! The irrational potty mouthed child who, by the time he reaches puberty, it'll all be too late!

Is it not time for your afternoon nap little man?

Were those big bad grown ups keeping you up!?

We promise to keep the noise down. Somebody put his relaxing music on!

[RingoMcCartney]

I'm struggling here Ringo as you are being so vague.

I certainly wouldn't say it looks like you are winging this, but lots of people will do.

So this EU Army (which you believe exists and no one else does) is the same as NATO?

Not being funny here Lancs. But vague? Vague? Its you that's being vague. I'm starting to think your refusal to continually ignore my request for you to answer a very straight forward question is now taking the p***. Do you crave my attention? Is that what it Is?

"autonomous capacity for action" through a joint military force." What does it mean?

[UpTheBeehole]

Why don't you actually answer Lancasterclaret for a change instead Ringo.

[RingoMcCartney]

Why don't you actually answer Lancasterclaret for a change instead Ringo.

Shhhh

[aggi]

NATO?

Is that a combined defence force made up from various nations?

Or

Is that a North Atlantic Army?

That's kind of the question I was asking. So do you want us to leave NATO? If you asked the man on the street if they wanted our armed forces to defend this island or be part of a North Atlantic Army lead by Donald Trump what would they answer?

Your view seems to be that you don't really understand what this "EU Army" actually consists of (despite very definite assertions at the start) so it's a bad idea and a reason to leave the EU. It's not the most convincing argument

[Lancasterclaret]

You bought it up Ringo. Why don't you tell me what it means?

The more you post about this EU army though is kinda telling me all I need to know.

[Cryssys]

In my opinion anything resembling an EU army should be avoided. It's an opinion that I feel the majority of the UK population shares.

And it's my opinion that the majority of the UK population doesn't share your opinion. Unless you have evidence to the contrary?

Come on man, facts! Where's your evidence?

[RingoMcCartney]

And it's my opinion that the majority of the UK population doesn't share your opinion. Unless you have evidence to the contrary?

Come on man, facts! Where's your evidence?

I don't have any facts to back my opinion up that, the majority of people in the UK would want the British army to be consumed by an EU army. It's just my opinion. A feeling if you like.

Do YOU have any facts to say it would? Do YOU have any evidence to counter my opinion. Or like me, are you just left with an opinion?

[RingoMcCartney]

You bought it up Ringo. Why don't you tell me what it means?

The more you post about this EU army though is kinda telling me all I need to know.

"autonomous capacity for action" through a joint military force." Macron.

Ringo says it's an army.

Ringo then repeatedly asks Lancaster claret what

"autonomous capacity for action" through a joint military force." Means


Lancaster refuses to answer, despite claiming to, and I quote'
" I know exactly what it means, because if I've got a thing (apart from football!) its military"



FINAL SCORE

RINGO MCCARTNEY 1. LANCASTER CLARET 0

[RingoMcCartney]

If you asked the man on the street if they wanted our armed forces to defend this island or be part of a North Atlantic Army lead by Donald Trump what would they answer?

He'd say, and he'd be correct in doing so, both are currently happening simultaneously.

[Lancasterclaret]

You've managed in two pages of non-answers to answer the question to my satisfaction to be fair Ringo.

And you really love the football score analogy don't you?

I think this is much fairer

Ringo A - A Lancaster Claret

Game abandoned as Ringo fielded 11 ineligible players who'd never seen a football before.

Here is the NATO strategic review for 2017 for you to have a look at. Fill your boots

https://www.nato.int/docu/review/2017/A ... medium=smc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[aggi]

Well this has been an entertaining few pages of Ringo rowing back from facts to opinions, refusing to answer questions and not providing evidence (apart from the link he provided which disproved a lot of the stuff he was claiming).

[RingoMcCartney]

You've managed in two pages of non-answers to answer the question to my satisfaction to be fair Ringo.mc

There's a real arrogance that statement. You suffer from it regularly.

When you say I'm not answering to your "satisfaction". What you really mean is I'm not agreeing with you.!!!

I've given you probably (I'm not counting) 10 opportunities to answer a question-

When Macron says when he wants ""autonomous capacity for action" through a joint military force." What does he mean?

I've repeatedly answered the same question- it's an EU army. That's my answer my opinion.

Now you may disagree with my answer and opinion. But to arrogantly say im not answering is simply a bare faced lie.

So when it comes to answering a question, despite a couple of minutes of Lancsy Time at the very end of the 90.

The final score finishes

RINGO MCCARTNEY 1 LANCASTER CLARET 0

[BigChaCha]

I am a great believer in ''Life is what you make it''

Forget Brexit ....... forget who's in government ...... because it means jack sh1t on how successful you are in life!

Time to stop making excuses and get on with it!

If you dropped me in any decade over the last 40 years I would still make plenty of money ...

... There is no excuse for your child struggling either. While many people are wasting away coin on fags, drugs, booze, sovereign rings, gold chains and Bull Terriers, me and the wife used it for our children's futures. My 11 year old son already has enough money for a deposit for a large house!

[randomclaret2]

Self praise is no praise

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

Wow would you look at that, a perfect example of the tolerant left. I take it you didn't like PE, never had many friends and were always last picked for any team event?

As much as we can see you are enjoying gloating. Enjoy the moment because like anything in life you never know what's round the corner. What happens if the govt. collapses and your beloved tolerant ( clearly an oxymoron )left fail to control the next govt. ( very real possibility )

We could get crash out of the clutches of the EU with no deal. Nada. Will you start crying again and and claim your gender nuetral feelings have been hurt?

My government? Again, I live in Spain, not the UK. I have dual citizenship, you can soft, hard or no Brexit, it makes no difference to me at all. Crying? Gender nuetral? What on earth are you spluttering on about?

[Bertiebeehead]

I am a great believer in ''Life is what you make it''

Forget Brexit ....... forget who's in government ...... because it means jack sh1t on how successful you are in life!

Time to stop making excuses and get on with it!

If you dropped me in any decade over the last 40 years I would still make plenty of money ...

... There is no excuse for your child struggling either. While many people are wasting away coin on fags, drugs, booze, sovereign rings, gold chains and Bull Terriers, me and the wife used it for our children's futures. My 11 year old son already has enough money for a deposit for a large house!

Mind you don’t trip over your wallet and damage your 3k watch.

[UpTheBeehole]

I am a great believer in ''Life is what you make it''

Forget Brexit ....... forget who's in government ...... because it means jack sh1t on how successful you are in life!

Time to stop making excuses and get on with it!

If you dropped me in any decade over the last 40 years I would still make plenty of money ...

... There is no excuse for your child struggling either. While many people are wasting away coin on fags, drugs, booze, sovereign rings, gold chains and Bull Terriers, me and the wife used it for our children's futures. My 11 year old son already has enough money for a deposit for a large house!

Or a good fortnight in Ibiza once he turns 18

[RingoMcCartney]

Well this has been an entertaining few pages of Ringo rowing back from facts to opinions, refusing to answer questions and not providing evidence (apart from the link he provided which disproved a lot of the stuff he was claiming).

Well you can try and dismiss Macron ""autonomous capacity for action" through a joint military force."? - An EU army.

You can try and dismiss Arch euro federalist Mogherini boasting, European Union of Security and Defence” was ”not a dream anymore, it is reality coming true”. An EU army.

And you can try and dismiss Remaining EU countries agree to plan to integrate their military forces after Brexit as not being an EU army.

You can ignore the Permanent Structured Cooperation (Pesco) is an eu army in all but name.

And you can hope and pray that the alcoholic clown Drunker, isn't left in charge of it!!!!!!

But as I said this morning. Walk onto any steet of any town in the United kingdom and ask they'd want their defence force to defend these islands or be consumed by an EU army. The majority of the people would choose the former, not the latter.

And the fact that you, and the usual gaggle of Remoaners know that to be the case. And it would be massively unpopular and a great reason to stay out of the EU. Is why you've spent all afternoon trying to deny it's even true!

So absolutely no rowing back from me. None what so ever.

The EU is suffering from worryingly large scale mission creep.

A "trading bloc" with an army!? A f****** army!

[Tall Paul]

It has all been dismissed Ringo.

[UpTheBeehole]

Ringo still doesn't get it.

Thick as f*ck

[RingoMcCartney]

Or a good fortnight in Ibiza once he turns 18

Something you'll never experience, eh uphisownhole!!!!!?

[UpTheBeehole]

Something you'll never experience, eh uphisownhole!!!!!?

Been there, done that, on many occasions.

You'll be afraid to leave the country won't you?

[RingoMcCartney]

It has all been dismissed Ringo.

You may well believe that's the case. You'd think if you read this thread that 99.9% want to remain in the EU. But out in the real world more people agree with me. And as was witnessed on Question Time last night. You Remoaners came face to face with Real People. The majority. And your boys took one hell of a beating!!!

I almost felt embarrassed for the Remoaners, Nicky "why did leave my cosseted metropolitan bubble?" Morgan and Lord "these oiks are calling for me and my chums to be abolished" Winston! Almost!!!

God bless the Real People of Burnsley!!!

[Tall Paul]

Trying to have a messageboard discussion with Ringo