Things we hear or say without actually understanding it

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:40 pm

There's quite a few common sayings in the English language that everyone has heard of, but not many seem to know why we say it. I've been reading about a few.

"Break a leg."
Having the "Upper hand"
"Close, but no cigar."
"Sleep tight"
"Brand spanking new." - is that better than new?
"With a grain of salt."
"Tied the knot."
"Jump on the bandwagon."

Any others?

LeadBelly · Post by **LeadBelly** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:48 pm

I'll go to our house.

Wexford_Claret · Post by **Wexford_Claret** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:50 pm

‘Beyond the pale’- refers to the old English territory in Ireland, the Pale

‘By hook or by crook’- there’s a theory it was first said by Cromwell in relation to Hook Head in Wexford and Crook in Waterford

‘Apple of my eye’- never got this one! Any ideas?

I always thought ‘break a leg’ was down to superstitions about saying nice things like ‘good luck’ and jinxing a performance?

English, a weird and wonderful language...

wilks_bfc · Post by **wilks_bfc** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:51 pm

The one that always winds me up is “New & improved”

If it’s new there’s nothing for it to be improved on
It can only be New or improved

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:56 pm

Cor Blimey ... a derivative of " God, blind me "...

LeadBelly · Post by **LeadBelly** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:57 pm

kick the bucket

Dazzler · Post by **Dazzler** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:00 pm

Salt Of The Earth

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:01 pm

Brexit

(Or should that be things we voted for without actually understanding it?

)

Grimsdale · Post by **Grimsdale** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:07 pm

A "near miss". Surely it should be a "near hit".

CharlieinNewMexico · Post by **CharlieinNewMexico** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:18 pm

wilks_bfc wrote:The one that always winds me up is “New & improved”

If it’s new there’s nothing for it to be improved on
It can only be New or improved

When I see this am I only one that thinks "so you've been shafting us with inferior product all this time, eh?"

Vintage Claret · Post by **Vintage Claret** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:28 pm

"You'll be laughing on the other side of your face" - How?

"Donkeys years" - how long is a donkey's year exactly?

"Selling like hot cakes" - Are hot cakes really that popular and if so why don't more people sell them?

"I don't know if I'm coming or going" -Time to quit drinking then.

"Can't do right for doing wrong" - Stop doing wrong then

bob-the-scutter · Post by **bob-the-scutter** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:28 pm

Flammable, inflammable. Meaning the same!

Bigvince · Post by **Bigvince** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:30 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:Brexit

(Or should that be things we voted for without actually understanding it? )

Why does someone always mention the B WORD on every topic

2 Bee Holed · Post by **2 Bee Holed** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:30 pm

FactualFrank wrote:There's quite a few common sayings in the English language that everyone has heard of, but not many seem to know why we say it. I've been reading about a few.

"Break a leg."
Having the "Upper hand"
"Close, but no cigar."
"Sleep tight"
"Brand spanking new." - is that better than new?
"With a grain of salt."
"Tied the knot."
"Jump on the bandwagon."

Any others?

'Sleep tight' from memory has something to do with 'mattresses' being supported on ropes.
In order to sleep well you could alter the tension of the ropes. Most people preffered them tight so you had to tighten the ropes.....hence sleep tight.

Here's one to think of;
"I'll go to foot of our stairs".

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:32 pm

Well I'll go t' foot o' stairs...

Bigvince · Post by **Bigvince** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:35 pm

Plenty that derive from military terms

Flash in the pan
Going off half cocked
Shooting your bolt
All the above about muskets

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:37 pm

It's a storm in a tea cup....much ado about nowt..your a sandwich short of a picnic..

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:40 pm

Rule of thumb referred to the thickness of a stick that you could beat the wife with.

Handball ! There's a few referees who don't understand that one.

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:45 pm

It's raining cats and dogs??? It's a pea souper..(fog)

Fez · Post by **Fez** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:49 pm

Its one of them

Or

At the end of the day, its one of them

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:02 pm

Well it is what it is isn't it?.....

Well yeah, but what you on about.

It's out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Doing all the hard yards ( don't know where it comes from )

Stepping up to the plate. Again not sure if origin, but kind of get the message.

Cirrus_Minor · Post by **Cirrus_Minor** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:07 pm

A lot comes from Naval/maritime sayings such as...

3 square meals a day

Money for old rope

3 sheets to the wind

Swinging the lead

And many more

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:10 pm

Bigvince wrote:Plenty that derive from military terms

Flash in the pan
Going off half cocked
Shooting your bolt
All the above about muskets

Bloody millions from the forces:
Brass Monkey - The wrack were primed cannon balls were kept, when the brass parts retracted in extreme cold it would cause all the cannon balls to roll off...."freeze the balls of a brass monkey"
Lock, stock and barrel - the parts of a flintlock.
Flash in the pan - the pan being the little plate where you placed the flint/match to the gun powder
forlorn hope - Early English Light troops were often sent open order way in advance of the main force - they had no chance of winning if they spotted by the enemy.
room to swing a cat - often thought to be cat o nine tails, but is now thought it refers to a coiled up rope. Definitely a naval term though.
With his salt - Roman's often paid each other with salt, though despite the myth it was never given as pay to soldiers.

Just the ones that spring to mind.

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:24 pm

"Faster than Ronaldo"

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:26 pm

Cross the Rubicon - is common for no going back, pretty much what it meant from day one - Julius Caesar's crossing the Rubicon signaled the start Roman Civil War.
Side Burns - A joke made about General Burnside's outrageous moss-chops in the American CW "don't know about Burnside... he's more like Side-burn with those
Sent to Coventry - There was a huge PoW camp in Coventry, for Loyalist prisoners captured by the Parliamentarians.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:31 pm

"Blood is thicker than water"

We take it to mean that family is more important than friendships, etc. But that's the opposite of what the full saying means, which says that the relationships we choose are more valuable than the relationships we're born into.

"The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb".

Bigvince · Post by **Bigvince** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:38 pm

Damp squib = squib is a small explosive, if damp just fizzles out
Swinging the lead = easy job on sailing ship checking depth of water with rope and lead weight

bfcmik · Post by **bfcmik** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:44 pm

"Tie the knot" refers to the ancient custom of symbolically tying a couples hands together by the priest whilst stating, "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.” (Matthew 19:6) during a marriage service.

"Living o'er t'brush" refers to the custom, common amongst Navvies and working class people who couldn't a church wedding, during the 18th and 19th centuries where a couple intending to live as man and wife would gather some witnesses and step over a broom together. They should then have notified the local registrar of their new status but most did not because that cost a half-sovereign in the mid 1700s.

"Jump on the bandwagon" refers to the parade that a circus would give before a performance. The band would ride on a wagon and, if they were good or popular, then citizens wcould climb aboard to be transported to the Big Top. Politicians seized on this idea after the franchise had been given to all men over the age of 25 as a means to get people to their meetings or the voting booth (the idea was that you would vote for the guy who transported you there and is still, except they use cars nowadays, used by the political parties in marginal seats.)

Silkyskills1 · Post by **Silkyskills1** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:44 pm

'Offside'!

Vino blanco · Post by **Vino blanco** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:54 pm

Swinging the lead' wasn't an easy job on board ship, it was cheating on the job. The sailor was supposed to lower a rope with a lead weight on it into the water to check the depth. Instead of letting the weight sink to the bottom, he would dangle the weighted rope over the side of the ship and swing it so he didn't have to lift it back from the bottom of the sea . Hence, swinging the lead.

Sleep tight. As stated above, early beds had mattresses or pal liaises supported by straps or ropes, which would work loose during the night, hence sleep tight.

Donkeys years. This is a corruption of donkeys ears, ie as long as donkeys ears.

Vino blanco · Post by **Vino blanco** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:05 pm

Apple of my eye. This goes back to biblical writings, the Apple being the pupil of the eye. Hence, the first thing seen through eye.

Lord Beamish · Post by **Lord Beamish** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:10 pm

Two expressions I only ever heard Grandma Beamish use were, 'I'll put salt on your/their tail', and 'Foot, Horse, and Guns'.
The first was an admonition if she was going to scold or punish you/someone. Ironically, she was inveterately kind and never raised her voice, let alone her hand to any child.
The second would be used like others would use 'lock, stock, and barrel', or 'the whole nine yards'.

I have a different explanation for 'beyond the pale' to Wexford's above. The pale mentioned refers to stakes or pales(from where we derive the word impale) used to make fences and palisades. Anything that was unacceptable or forbidden was outside the bounds of said fences and was said to be 'beyond the pale'.

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:11 pm

I love you.

Vino blanco · Post by **Vino blanco** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:17 pm

Not certain but I think 'beyond the pale' comes from the Irish connection of land beyond British control in Ireland, but the Pale itself is based on Beamish's explanation of anything beyond the pale or fence.

atlantalad · Post by **atlantalad** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:25 pm

Interesting thread. I started to list down expressions I have heard so that I ponder over there meaning and origin. Two "spring to mind"
Cut to the chase.
Crying over spilt milk.

- and , may be
dog tired.

Vino blanco · Post by **Vino blanco** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:30 pm

Cut to the chase. This comes from early silent movies, where if the plot was dragging, they would simply cut to the chase scene to liven it up. Crying over spilt milk is self evident.

atlantalad · Post by **atlantalad** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:35 pm

Never cried over spilling milk .... beer maybe, whiskey for sure if its a large one.

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:45 pm

Grimsdale wrote:A "near miss". Surely it should be a "near hit".

In the yuppified days of the 1980's some of the young Royal Artillery Officers tried calling our Air Defence weapons Hitiles instead of Missiles.

Thankfully, it didn't last long!

Wexford_Claret · Post by **Wexford_Claret** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:52 pm

Lord Beamish wrote: I have a different explanation for 'beyond the pale' to Wexford's above. The pale mentioned refers to stakes or pales (from where we derive the word impale) used to make fences and palisades. Anything that was unacceptable or forbidden was outside the bounds of said fences and was said to be 'beyond the pale'.

Interesting, I just Googled it and the answer I got was that no one’s sure! Thinking about it your explanation seems to make much more sense, though I suppose we can never be sure with the madness that is language and etymology...

Hipper · Post by **Hipper** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:51 pm

Back to back. As in 'back to back wins'. It means one after the other but I don't understand why.

Come on, get off! As in a bus that had one too many passengers on board and the conductor said to the last one 'come on, get off'.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:21 am

We're doing well here. There's also the Peter Kay one about Larry.

I'm as happy as Larry.

Lord Beamish · Post by **Lord Beamish** » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:43 am

As Happy as a Clam doesn't make too much sense until you realise that it is a truncated form of the phrase 'as happy as a clam at high tide'. Clams exposed by low tide can easily be picked by land and air predators, whereas they are safe when the tide is in.

Foulthrow · Post by **Foulthrow** » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:14 pm

The one I don't understand is when - in anecdotes about what people did - they often become gates.

"He were a gate..... and then she were a gate"

I think they mean - "he was saying.... and then she was saying"

Herts Clarets · Post by **Herts Clarets** » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:20 pm

He's entitled to go down.....

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:23 pm

This thread is USELESS without etymology

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:24 pm

Falcon wrote:This thread is USELESS without etymology

I may write a few articles and post them up.

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:26 pm

wilks_bfc wrote:The one that always winds me up is “New & improved”

If it’s new there’s nothing for it to be improved on
It can only be New or improved

Usually said about an 'upgrade', which is then acceptable. As in a 'new model that is better than the previous one'.

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:32 pm

elwaclaret wrote:Cross the Rubicon - is common for no going back, pretty much what it meant from day one - Julius Caesar's crossing the Rubicon signaled the start Roman Civil War.
Side Burns - A joke made about General Burnside's outrageous moss-chops in the American CW "don't know about Burnside... he's more like Side-burn with those
Sent to Coventry - There was a huge PoW camp in Coventry, for Loyalist prisoners captured by the Parliamentarians.

Cross the Rubicon refers to the Greek myth that when you die you cross the river Rubicon into the underworld, a place of no return. Thus meaning 'no going back'.

LoveCurryPies · Post by **LoveCurryPies** » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:56 pm

You won't be surprised to find out "Break a leg" is nothing to do with breaking your leg.

I've worked with several major theatre companies for over 25 years and here is the correct reason...

It is simply a way of wishing an actor a good performance and one that will the audience will appreciate, hence you will be required to bend your leg your bow when accepting their applause.

Foshiznik · Post by **Foshiznik** » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:02 pm

Err on the side of caution
He got great purchase on the shot
Too well hit
play it by ear.