How we conceded today

watsonsclarets · Post by **watsonsclarets** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:14 pm

touch tight he dived in with two players close..

then Tarks followed the ball but Bardsley get the blame for it look at the central area in out defence.

Yes united movement is great but massive hole both central defenders at fault.

Should Mee have dropped off? he was a bit rash and Tarks should have stayed centrally.

I initially though Taylor may have been at fault too but there another picture showing Arfield in field and Taylor further forward.

Poor transition this is not a criticism either just a observation.

Lindgaard movment is quality massively improved player

starting_11 · Post by **starting_11** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:15 pm

Can you show the bit where Bardsley is 2 feet away from Martial, stands still for ages and jumps out of his way to enable him to shoot?

starting_11 · Post by **starting_11** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:16 pm

Then can you show us the exact same thing against Palace.

watsonsclarets · Post by **watsonsclarets** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:19 pm

starting_11 wrote:Can you show the bit where Bardsley is 2 feet away from Martial, stands still for ages and jumps out of his way to enable him to shoot?

He tried to show him the outside issue both he and Pope did .

Could he of got out quicker to Martial?

watsonsclarets · Post by **watsonsclarets** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:21 pm

could he did he anticipate?

By the way this is not a negative I'm working on a few things within football and would enjoy other people take - football and opinions and what.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:27 pm

yeah amazing how 140 million quids worth of talent out did our team, amazed

I still think Dyche will question Lukaku throwing Mee to the ground in the build up though

watsonsclarets · Post by **watsonsclarets** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:30 pm

Vegas Claret wrote:yeah amazing how 140 million quids worth of talent out did our team, amazed

I still think Dyche will question Lukaku throwing Mee to the ground in the build up though

Not thats not my point we have what we have just like to find understanding in what i watch sorry.

Should have Defour or Cork have been screening Him should Mee have been 5 yards behind.

Football is a great game it im looking into why things happen. Our framework is excellant but i have been noting i think we slower getting into the denfensive transitions.

Sorry if i bored anybody

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:39 pm

no all good, I think the reason we conceded was because Dean didn't give a free kick.
Other than that Mee could have stood off I suppose, Bardsley could have got closer and Pope could have been another couple of yards off his line. Or, we could have kept the ball further up the field in the first place

watsonsclarets · Post by **watsonsclarets** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:39 pm

It was a top finish to be fair.

SalisburyClaret · Post by **SalisburyClaret** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:40 pm

After the initial challenge it Looked like Cork could have challenged for the ball and would have been favourite to win it- but he left it to Taylor by which time Lukaku had the ball again.

Bardsley could have got a lot closer

watsonsclarets · Post by **watsonsclarets** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:40 pm

SalisburyClaret wrote:After the initial challenge it Looked like Cork could have challenged for the ball and would have been favourite to win it- but he left it to Taylor by which time Lukaku had the ball again.

Bardsley could have got a lot closer

Thats not taylor he in the other half.

wilks_bfc · Post by **wilks_bfc** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:41 pm

Could you also show the straight arm push from Lukaku on Mee that “created” the space to run into

watsonsclarets · Post by **watsonsclarets** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:43 pm

However in Taylor defense with Arfield moving inside he was asked to get higher.

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:45 pm

Our back 4 were all over the place and they have been on too many occasions since Lowton & Ward were injured.
You know Manure want to hit you on the break so just sit 4 in a line. First half we were perfect until Ben Mee carried it out deep in added Time, they nearly pinched one then.
Second half we looked to get forward more but they have so much strength and pace you are asking for trouble. We should have played for 0-0 at 80 mins and then brought Sam on to try and win it.

watsonsclarets · Post by **watsonsclarets** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:48 pm

I only have video from the moment Mee was turned. One thing that's starting to make me think is do we need a more physical presence in midfield. I know it been mooted on here we do look lightweight. I love the tactical side of football that's all and of course the Clarets. I cant wait to see the full event again from the transition though it not everyday you see a Burnley full back in the oppositions half when the balls gone in the back of the net (well nearly)..

I love football tactical discussions.

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:00 pm

watsonsclarets wrote: I love football tactical discussions.

I'd expect them to analyse it to death on MOTD. Our CH on his arse on the halfway line, our LB in their half, two at the back. Hansen would have cried.

JohnDearyMe · Post by **JohnDearyMe** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:55 pm

Thought after Mee was pushed off the ball Tarkowski charged over slightly recklessly to try and win it back which didn't do us any favours

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:02 pm

watsonsclarets wrote: I love football tactical discussions.

There isn't one to have here though.

Mee goes to head the ball, lukaku pushes him and from then on the back foot.

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:10 pm

Just watched it again. We are 2 on 2 at the back, both ball side. When Mee loses out and Lukaku carries the ball Tarks has to track over. This then leaves Bardsley with two, he tracks to the immediate danger, Lingard. Unfortunately for us Martial plays it perfect, staying wide in space and allowing Lukaku an easy ball to lay him in. Brilliant on their part but they do it so often. That is why I said earlier our back 4 should not be coming out against that level of opposition.

watsonsclarets · Post by **watsonsclarets** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:26 pm

Excuse my crude drawings.

For me Mee should have dropped off not often in a professional game you have one Centre Back behind the ball and the other outside the width of the box.

I still think today we tried to play a bit more open in many areas as Piston has said we tend to nearly have a back 4 in either transition it all about our rigid play, but today with Arfield moving forward we tried to counter act the fact Mata plays very narrow.

As somebody has mentioned yet United have great movement.

It goes to show goals are scored by brilliance and mistakes i think this was a mistake.

Could Tarky have stayed Central.

watsonsclarets · Post by **watsonsclarets** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:27 pm

quoonbeatz wrote:There isn't one to have here though.

Mee goes to head the ball, lukaku pushes him and from then on the back foot.

Of course thats people choice but i want to know who lost the ball what was the starting transition of our players and how did it happen could it be stopped.

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:30 pm

watsonsclarets wrote: For me Mee should have dropped off

Why would you drop off rather than win a free header?

You can't legislate for someone pushing you in the back.

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:31 pm

watsonsclarets wrote:Of course thats people choice but i want to know who lost the ball what was the starting transition of our players and how did it happen could it be stopped.

It could have been stopped if the referee had given what was a clear foul.

It's that simple.

watsonsclarets · Post by **watsonsclarets** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:33 pm

I would drop off because if it was a free header why didnt he win it. (Was not given as a foul)#

Because the player had to turn and beat Mee if he had dropped off and the 2 man midfield screen should have been tighter.

As in the first half and Manchester City Mee charges forward which is great but he got left exposed he lost Lukuku turned in a instant and left a 3-2 overload.

The reast is as people have pointed out poor allround from Tarks leaving the dimention of the box with another centre back behind the ball and 2 oppersition players within the said box.

RTo look further into context i would like to see Ben Mee aerial success rate today

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:34 pm

watsonsclarets wrote: Could Tarky have stayed Central.

If he had Lukaku had a clear run on goal. Neither off the back two are at fault. The mistake is nobody covering for Mee when he comes out. This would have still left us a man advantage and is something we are normally very efficient at. I'm not pointing fingers but as soon as Mee goes any of the MFs should have sensed danger and dropped back.

watsonsclarets · Post by **watsonsclarets** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:36 pm

piston broke wrote:If he had Lukaku had a clear run on goal. Neither off the back two are at fault. The mistake is nobody covering for Mee when he comes out. This would have still left us a man advantage and is something we are normally very efficient at. I'm not pointing fingers but as soon as Mee goes any of the MFs should have sensed danger and dropped back.

i think they tried but it left a 3 on 2. I think Tarky could have shown him the line a little longer than he did the ball going wide and he is quite a way out. Small margins hey!! Level were at i guess.

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:36 pm

watsonsclarets wrote:I would drop off because if it was a free header why didnt he win it.

Because he was pushed.

It's really simple stuff this, did you actually watch the game?

watsonsclarets · Post by **watsonsclarets** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:37 pm

quoonbeatz wrote:Because he was pushed.

It's really simple stuff this, did you actually watch the game?

yes and the push was not given!!! Did you

So in factual terms are you happy a centre back went charging into a header (I Suspect Mee won little all day in the air i could be wrong) knowing if he was beaten we where 3 on 2 on the half way line with no central defender in the width of the box. Hindsight hey.

The foul was not given was it a foul who knows.

I guess i will end it there all i wanted to do was discuss how it happened i can not wait for Match of the day but something did go wrong today.

I guess i keep my ramblings in future to myself. Would have loved a Burnley goal to look at two.

ClaretMat · Post by **ClaretMat** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:44 pm

He didn't go charging in to anything. He was in front of Lukaku it was straight on his head until he was pushed.
Taylor may have been a little far up the pitch but we should have had a free kick. You can't really legislate for a referee not giving a decision which should have been given.

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:49 pm

watsonsclarets wrote:yes and the push was not given!!! Did you

So in factual terms are you happy a centre back went charging into a header (I Suspect Mee won little all day in the air i could be wrong) knowing if he was beaten we where 3 on 2 on the half way line with no central defender in the width of the box. Hindsight hey.

He didn't go charging into the header, he was in front of lukaku who pushed him in the back.

Absolutely I want our centre halves to win headers, especially when they're not being challenged. The alternative is to let the opposition have time and space to bring the ball down unchallenged.

If you want to talk in factual terms, use actual facts.

ClaretAL · Post by **ClaretAL** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:50 pm

I think everyone is missing the point that this came about because they countered our counter attack. Unfortunately for us Mee broke with the ball and the field opened up for him, so he pushed on, the ball came back over him and they broke at speed, the minute it got over the half way line our shape had gone and you could see us crumble, it was always going to be a goal from that point. However i do feel if it was Tarky who would have broke on the counter, and the same thing happened, Mee would have had the line organised which is testament as to why every CB pairing he has been part of has been successful. Every cloud has a Silver lining and to be fair that was the only time we lost our shape and you cant do that against teams with precision and speed of utd, but we were more than a match for them today and well proud of our lads.

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:53 pm

It ended up being a quality goal from a side who on paper should have been streets ahead of us and out of sight, but never ever were and imo didn't deserve to win. A draw would have been a fair result all day long, but how many times can I say that when we've got (narrowly) beaten?

watsonsclarets · Post by **watsonsclarets** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:28 pm

quoonbeatz wrote:He didn't go charging into the header, he was in front of lukaku who pushed him in the back.

Absolutely I want our centre halves to win headers, especially when they're not being challenged. The alternative is to let the opposition have time and space to bring the ball down unchallenged.

If you want to talk in factual terms, use actual facts.

He wasen't though was he, He was never in front of Lukuku at all side to side at best. i think yes he should have backed off there was no threat if he had won with his head.

I'm not convinced it was a foul just strength however should one of our screening players been closer and been challenging instead of Mee.

Oh well it gone now

UTC

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:44 pm

From my seat at the game behind the goals, rather than watching YouTube clips it looked like mee was in front of lukaku.

You can't see it from that camera angle but lukaku shoved mee in the back. He doesn't even go for the ball, he just pushes mee.

Look how mee jumps. Nobody jumps for a header like that.

If lukaku jumped for the ball or just stood his ground, no complaints. But he didn't. He had his arms out and pushed mee. Just as tarkowski did to smalling about 5 mins layer and was penalised for it.

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:54 pm

Good goal taken well...we need to try doing it sometime.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:27 am

beddie · Post by **beddie** » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:25 am

Say what you want about Lukaku he's one of the best at muscling out defenders.

Claretmatt4 · Post by **Claretmatt4** » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:01 am

watsonsclarets wrote:(I Suspect Mee won little all day in the air i could be wrong)

Catastrophically wrong in fact. Ben Mee, all 5ft 10 of him, won every aerial battle against Lukaku all game, to the point where Lukaku stopped jumping for it because he knew he wouldn't win the ball. The only time he didn't was when he was pushed.

But yeah just assume things it's fine.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:20 am

Lots of tactical things tgat could be said but the basic difference between the two sides I'd is that when we made a mistake and allowed them to break on us, they had the pace and power to mdke it count. When we got similar chances, we didn't.

watsonsclarets · Post by **watsonsclarets** » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:23 am

Claretmatt4 wrote:Catastrophically wrong in fact. Ben Mee, all 5ft 10 of him, won every aerial battle against Lukaku all game, to the point where Lukaku stopped jumping for it because he knew he wouldn't win the ball. The only time he didn't was when he was pushed.

But yeah just assume things it's fine.

Assuming things is fine as you say this does not back up what your saying.

Lukaku won 3 out of 5 vs Tarkowski and Mee.

Whats more worrying is the stats the other way how many United Defenders won vs our forward line.

Yes of course stats do not tell the whole story it a bit like pass completion stats can be misleading until you see direction and potency.

Hipper · Post by **Hipper** » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:34 pm

Good subject Watsonsclaret. Don't be disheartened by any negativity or bluntness on here!

Agree it was likely a foul on Mee but it wasn't given and Mee recovered to get goalside of Lukaku. Play starts from there.

Mee then dives in. That I think was the key mistake. It's all very well committing yourself when surrounded by fellow defenders but that wasn't the case here. He should have held off and made Lukaku work to get passed him (after that Mee recoverd well again to get into the area to cover Lingard but the damage was done).

Once Martial received the ball he had two choices (as Mee had covered a pass to Lingard) - shoot to the near or the far post. Martial likes to shoot with his right foot and he'd already shot to the far post earlier in the game. Both Bardsley and Pope tried to cover the far post but unfortunately Bardsley offered too much space for the near post shot and Martial too his opportunity expertly. Bardsley can be held slightly to blame but it was a difficult situation.

Could Mee have fouled Lukaku so prevented the attack? Was he on a yellow card at that time?

Burnley Ace · Post by **Burnley Ace** » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:43 pm

Mee on a yellow, Bardsley didn’t quite cover enough of the near post (2ft out!) Defour tried to trip Lukaku and perhaps didn’t run back fast enough to cover the pass to Martial,