I Back Dyche To The Hilt, But He Got It Wrong Today

Bin Ont Turf · Post by **Bin Ont Turf** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:58 pm

The thing that got me most of all was that we continued to lump it with Wells on for Vokes.

BurnleyFC · Post by **BurnleyFC** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:00 pm

Seeing as the other thread has been deleted...

I was talking to a mate about this today. My little lad has just started playing football and although do able, it’s sometimes a struggle to take him to footy and get on the Turf.

I’m really not that bothered at the minute, even though we have a season ticket each, as we’ve been awful to watch recently, regardless of where we are in the league.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:00 pm

Come on gents, we'd have all took this position in August.

A win and a draw and we're reight!

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:06 pm

BurnleyFC wrote:Seeing as the other thread has been deleted...

I was talking to a mate about this today. My little lad has just started playing football and although do able, it’s sometimes a struggle to take him to footy and get on the Turf.

I’m really not that bothered at the minute, even though we have a season ticket each, as we’ve been awful to watch recently, regardless of where we are in the league.

You sound like one of those strange people who would prefer it if we were in the Championship.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:08 pm

Carvahal: “We tool controlled risks and put all the meat on the fire, on the barbecue, to win”

He's not wrong while Dyche was busy trying to put the barbecue out with petrol.

BurnleyFC · Post by **BurnleyFC** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:10 pm

fidelcastro wrote:You sound like one of those strange people who would prefer it if we were in the Championship.

Not strange, really.

I’d just like us to have a go from time to time.

walter the softy · Post by **walter the softy** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:10 pm

BOYSIE31 wrote:His limitations full stop but for some on here he is untouchable

Like they say only as good as your last game

As far as I am concerned, he is untouchable because we are seventh place in the top league with a team full of limited triers earning a fraction of what the players in sixth place earn. Perhaps you should try to get your head around that instead of spouting meaningless cliches.

UTC!

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:13 pm

BurnleyFC wrote:Not strange, really.

I’d just like us to have a go from time to time.

So, did we not have a go in the last home game?

You know? The one against the team that will win the Premier League this season?

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:14 pm

walter the softy wrote:As far as I am concerned, he is untouchable because we are seventh place in the top league with a team full of limited triers earning a fraction of what the players in sixth place earn. Perhaps you should try to get your head around that instead of spouting meaningless cliches.

UTC!

We do have our heads round that, I'm sure, Walter.
However, he's not immune from being queried about his approach
and tactics when he plainly gets them wrong.

Which he patently did today.

Walnutwillie · Post by **Walnutwillie** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:20 pm

Not bothered we lost today
It is the way we lost .
Couldn’t put more than a couple of passes together going forward . We played so negatively for 82 min
Injuries aside we still should be able to pass a ball forward surely

Walnutwillie · Post by **Walnutwillie** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:21 pm

Not bothered we lost today
It is the way we lost .
Couldn’t put more than a couple of passes together going forward . We played so negatively for 82 min
Injuries aside we still should be able to pass a ball forward surely

AlargeClaret · Post by **AlargeClaret** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:23 pm

We’re doing ok with the players we have .Lets not forget the likes of Barnes Arfield and Vokes are barely champ level and we’re missing really key men like Defour and Wood to make us more productive .
Bit puzzled about the lack of use of GNK but we played for a draw so can argue with SA coming on.
Ultimately we JUST got mugged away from home against a very in form side.
2 home games after the break I think we’lol soon find where we’re at and I feel we’ll hold our ground well

walter the softy · Post by **walter the softy** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:26 pm

ElectroClaret wrote:We do have our heads round that, I'm sure, Walter.
However, he's not immune from being queried about his approach
and tactics when he plainly gets them wrong.

Which he patently did today.

EC, I thought your original post/thread was fair enough. We probably have the same opinion. What I can not stand are comments like "you are only as good as your last game" or whatever. It's an empty phrase and also a bit disrespectful when you consider what Sean Dyche has done at Burnley.

BFC are not in it for the short term and neither is Sean Dyche. It has been a brilliant five years and one game does not change anything. Yes, he probably got it wrong today. It happens.

UTC!

Jakubs Tash · Post by **Jakubs Tash** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:35 pm

claretspice wrote:Anyone bothered to consider whether there might have been a positive reason for bringing Arfield on?

Like, for example, he's the best player in the club at making third man runs into goal scoring positions?

I always try and second guess substitutions or work out why the manager is bringing on a particular player and how that player is going to change games. So, yes, I bothered to consider it.

Everyone has opinions and they’re all absolutely entitled to them. I must admit that you tend to speak quite well and I often find myself agreeing with you a lot of the time. However, sometimes, your defence of certain players, tactics and substitutions can be as baffling as some of your epic ‘War and Peace’ stylee posts. You are allowed to change your mind and/or admit when things don’t quite go to plan for the players/management that you staunchly seem to back.

Arfield didn’t affect the game at all today. And Dyche got his decisions and tactics wrong.

Slurpy · Post by **Slurpy** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:55 pm

Barnes should've gone off not Vokes

SkiptonClaret · Post by **SkiptonClaret** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:57 pm

People expecting Nkoudou to get a chance, seriously ? Knew after about a minute of seeing him that he’s never a Dyche player in a million years. He’ll go the same way as the majority of the recent loan players. Absolute waste of time and made even more bizarre with the signing of Messi, sorry I meant Aaron Lennon, in the same rather underwhelming transfer window.
Youth, pace, creavity - we have none I’m afraid.

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:04 pm

SkiptonClaret wrote:People expecting Nkoudou to get a chance, seriously ? Knew after about a minute of seeing him that he’s never a Dyche player in a million years. He’ll go the same way as the majority of the recent loan players. Absolute waste of time and made even more bizarre with the signing of Messi, sorry I meant Aaron Lennon, in the same rather underwhelming transfer window.
Youth, pace, creavity - we have none I’m afraid.

What a load of crap!

Who on here compared Lennon to Messi?

And if Nkoudou isn't a Dyche player, why did he sign him?

I wouldn't have said the window was underwhelming at all. Yes I would've liked another striker and some CH cover, but it was far from what you describe, when we sign an England International and a player whom Spurs paid a lot of money for.

The cynicism on here is breathtaking at times. How do you function day to day?

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:07 pm

Jakubs Tash wrote:I always try and second guess substitutions or work out why the manager is bringing on a particular player and how that player is going to change games. So, yes, I bothered to consider it.

Everyone has opinions and they’re all absolutely entitled to them. I must admit that you tend to speak quite well and I often find myself agreeing with you a lot of the time. However, sometimes, your defence of certain players, tactics and substitutions can be as baffling as some of your epic ‘War and Peace’ stylee posts. You are allowed to change your mind and/or admit when things don’t quite go to plan for the players/management that you staunchly seem to back.

Arfield didn’t affect the game at all today. And Dyche got his decisions and tactics wrong.

I haven't backed a single player today, nor the manager, and nor have I contradicted your view that that particular change didn't work. So I'm really not sure what you're ranting about.

My only point was to challenge the assumption it was a negative change. There's a positive logic to putting on arguably our best finisher, and the automatic assumption that Nkoudou - who is quick and can beat a man but hasn't shown lots of end product yet - is a more positive option nonsense.

ClaretAL · Post by **ClaretAL** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:08 pm

agreed. January transfer window is a bad time to buy to the expect a player to slot in seamlessly, even Messi lol. take Brady for example, people were calling for his head like Hendrick is now, but 1 pre season later and he is arguably the best player we have. so dont judge on January window

Murger · Post by **Murger** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:12 pm

claretspice wrote:I haven't backed a single player today, nor the manager, and nor have I contradicted your view that that particular change didn't work. So I'm really not sure what you're ranting about.

My only point was to challenge the assumption it was a negative change. There's a positive logic to putting on arguably our best finisher, and the automatic assumption that Nkoudou - who is quick and can beat a man but hasn't shown lots of end product yet - is a more positive option nonsense.

So he's quick and can beat a man, yet can't get on ahead of someone who offers zero. Makes sense.

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:16 pm

claretspice wrote:....but hasn't shown lots of end product yet ....

For Christ's sake, when has he had the bloody chance?

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:25 pm

Murger wrote:So he's quick and can beat a man, yet can't get on ahead of someone who offers zero. Makes sense.

He doesn't offer zero, for one. He's probably the most reliable finisher in the club. This tendency to be utterly disrespectful about good players who have given the best years of their careers to getting us where we are is the most regrettable aspect of our recent success.

Pace is great. So is being able to beat a man. But both are a means to an end - i.e. creating a chance or scoring a chance. There are other means to get to that end, and if you're already getting into positions to create or score chances and its end product that is lacking then i can see a very good argument that Arfield is a better bet than Nkoudou. I wasn't there today so I'm not saying this necessarily applies today, but it's sound logic generally.

Dyche signed Nkoudou because he's a good option to have. But let's not build him up to be something he's really not.

BabylonClaret · Post by **BabylonClaret** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:27 pm

I agree with spice re Nkoudou. I dont think he'll make it at Spurs or here.

Its early doors I guess but after a decwnt showing at Palace he has failed to make any impact at all in any of his appearances. Its difficult for sure only getting ten minutes but not once has he looked like opening up the oppo

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:28 pm

ElectroClaret wrote:For Christ's sake, when has he had the bloody chance?

He's had a few cameos. But more particularly he's had a month in training watched by the manager and coaching staff every day. The very fact he's had so little game time for all of us to judge him is precisely why we should trust the manager's judgement on this one. To effectively makeit a reason to question him is ludicrous.

Murger · Post by **Murger** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:29 pm

BabylonClaret wrote:I agree with spice re Nkoudou. I dont think he'll make it at Spurs or here.

Its early doors I guess but after a decwnt showing at Palace he has failed to make any impact at all in any of his appearances. Its difficult for sure only getting ten minutes but not once has he looked like opening up the oppo

He did against United.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:30 pm

I wouldn't be trusting the manager Spice. He clearly doesn't have a clue about his squad. I for one always trust whichever bloke shouts the loudest in the JHU on tactics and team selection. It just doesn't make any sense to trust an expert on stuff like this.

bartons baggage · Post by **bartons baggage** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:31 pm

ElectroClaret wrote:Poor, poor tactics. Arfield on, for what?
Nkoudou gets a few minutes.

Not great.

And by dyche,s own admission he's still learning, but still a cool opinion bro.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:35 pm

Murger wrote:He did against United.

He did ok again at United. We needed a player to force United to play deeper and to draw them out of the centre of thr pitch. To some extent he did that, but this biggest contribution was in truth to win a few free kicks. His end product wasn't as impressive as the promise he showed on the ball.

I don't know if that was the problem we faced today so I don't know if Nkoudou was the answer to the question. But I do know it is not a given.

Jakubs Tash · Post by **Jakubs Tash** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:36 pm

claretspice wrote:I haven't backed a single player today, nor the manager, and nor have I contradicted your view that that particular change didn't work. So I'm really not sure what you're ranting about.

My only point was to challenge the assumption it was a negative change. There's a positive logic to putting on arguably our best finisher, and the automatic assumption that Nkoudou - who is quick and can beat a man but hasn't shown lots of end product yet - is a more positive option nonsense.

First of all your initial post suggested you thought the decision to bring Arfield on was a positive one? Maybe I was wrong to read between the lines with your comments....

Also, on that, I really can’t remember Arfield making any great 3rd man runs that he supposedly the best at the club at - particularly not in the Premier League. Perhaps you could give some examples?

As others have pointed out, N’Koudou would have been a much bolder change and he has been given little opportunity to show what he can do. Against a team that are clearly down near the bottom for a reason, I think we should have been more pro-active in trying to win the game.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:39 pm

Jakubs Tash wrote:I really can’t remember Arfield making any great 3rd man runs that he supposedly the best at the club at - particularly not in the Premier League. Perhaps you could give some examples

Sure. Liverpool away when he scored with a lovely finish after anticipating a knock down and the next passage of play. As good an example as you'll see.

Top Claret · Post by **Top Claret** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:45 pm

BurnleyFC wrote:Seeing as the other thread has been deleted...

I was talking to a mate about this today. My little lad has just started playing football and although do able, it’s sometimes a struggle to take him to footy and get on the Turf.

I’m really not that bothered at the minute, even though we have a season ticket each, as we’ve been awful to watch recently, regardless of where we are in the league.

Best way to describe you would be fickle

jojomk1 · Post by **jojomk1** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:46 pm

The fact that neither N'Koudou or Wells get more than a 10 min cameo role shows the manager does not rate them as high as the likes of Vokes, Barnes and Arfield
Not the best of deals then ?

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:49 pm

jojomk1 wrote:The fact that neither N'Koudou or Wells get more than a 10 min cameo role shows the manager does not rate them as high as the likes of Vokes, Barnes and Arfield
Not the best of deals then ?

It doesn't necessarily show that at all.

Reecey1987 · Post by **Reecey1987** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:50 pm

Dyche fetched arfield on today because lennon was struggling when it come to tracking back and arfield works his backside off .

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:51 pm

His assist for Barnes goal v Stoke is another one btw

Jakubs Tash · Post by **Jakubs Tash** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:52 pm

claretspice wrote:Sure. Liverpool away when he scored with a lovely finish after anticipating a knock down and the next passage of play. As good an example as you'll see.

Hmmmm, not my idea of a third man run....

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:54 pm

Jakubs Tash wrote:Hmmmm, not my idea of a third man run....

Why not?

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:58 pm

I don’t want to fall foul of the forum police who insist Dyche is uncriticisable, nor do I want to be mocked as a happy clapper who will merrily back their team no matter what dross is served up (this thread seems to be posts of one type or the other).

It seems to me to be somewhere in the middle.

Dyche, as we know, is a pragmatist to the hilt. He knows these two sides were two of the lowest for goals scored, so he knows it will be tight. He therefore, considering our injuries, probably would have been content with a draw, knowing Leicester were away at City. When he is torn, he often errs on the side of caution.

When Swansea brought Ayew on for a defender on the hour, he went into his cautious, pragmatist mode and brought on Arfield to batten down the hatches. To be fair to him, it has worked many times. The problem is, he went with last year’s away tactics (a defensive style 4-4-2) instead of a more offensive version of it. We thus ended up with last year’s typical result. I suspect he didn’t have the faith in his own reserves, and maybe in feeling that he is right. The likes of Long and Taylor look shaky when opponents swarm around them with their tails up. Arfield was probably chosen to help.

Dyche has earned the right to make errors if errors they were, which none of us know for sure. Now we have 2 weeks to get our players fit again. I’d like to see our first choice back four for Southampton and get winning again.

Silkyskills1 · Post by **Silkyskills1** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:59 pm

Can't really blame Scott Arfield. He does what he's told. The manager, however, is totally to blame. Playing against a team, despite their recent upsurge, who are constantly looking over their shoulder currently was a great opportunity to be pro-active,certainly in the latter stages of the game. He didn't take up that chance and reverted to type and got stung. We all know that injuries have had a major impact on the team but as those hardy souls who paid good money to travel today probably find themselves somewhere around a motorway junction currently it will be of little solace to them.

Jakubs Tash · Post by **Jakubs Tash** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:03 pm

claretspice wrote:Why not?

Because, to me, that was more Arfield just joining up with a forward move and getting on the end of a knock down/lay off. In my opinion, a third man run is when you are involved in the initial part of the move and carry on your run (usually running beyond the front man) to be slipped in by another player.

duncandisorderly · Post by **duncandisorderly** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:08 pm

I haven't seen highlights yet, but I have seen plenty of Arfield, enough at least to know the game was going a certain way when he was brought on. If you want a knock down and bang then arfield is your man, as evidenced at liverpool, brentford, blackburn - much better than any other midfielder or winger (appen Boyd was also good at that) we currently have.

But on the broader picture, Dyche isn't infallible and those bending backwards need to acknowledge room for improvement. Likewise those trying to find fault need to acknowledge this is the best we've been in a long long time. We used to get beat at Swansea in the 4th division.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:09 pm

Jakubs Tash wrote:Because, to me, that was more Arfield just joining up with a forward move and getting on the end of a knock down/lay off. In my opinion, a third man run is when you are involved in the initial part of the move and carry on your run (usually running beyond the front man) to be slipped in by another player.

I don't think you are right, and even if you were you'd be splitting hairs. The point of a third man run is that it's a run by a third attacker to exploit space when two attackers have engaged the two defenders. And my point is about the quality of the runs Arfield makes from deep into the box and his ability to anticipate the bounce of the ball. Whether he's played a 5 yard pass at the beginning of the move or not is really besides the point.

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:13 pm

"Swansea have took 6 points off us for a team that's been in the bottom half all season is certainly not good enough "

I think that someone needs to check their facts. It is still only 3 points for a win ---isn't it?

Silkyskills1 · Post by **Silkyskills1** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:32 pm

claretspice wrote:I don't think you are right, and even if you were you'd be splitting hairs. The point of a third man run is that it's a run by a third attacker to exploit space when two attackers have engaged the two defenders. And my point is about the quality of the runs Arfield makes from deep into the box and his ability to anticipate the bounce of the ball. Whether he's played a 5 yard pass at the beginning of the move or not is really besides the point.

And I don't think that you are right. This 'third man run' you refer to is the sort of goal we used to see in the past from the likes of Bryan Robson, Martin Peters,our own Peter Noble and currently,like him or loathe him, Dele Alli. Goals were scored by players,not necessarily starting a move but by finishing it with a run from a deep position that wasn't picked up by the opposition. For all that Scotty has offered us I've not really seen that as part of his game

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:39 pm

Stop posting examples Spice.

Just start shouting louder.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:43 pm

Silkyskills1 wrote:And I don't think that you are right. This 'third man run' you refer to is the sort of goal we used to see in the past from the likes of Bryan Robson, Martin Peters,our own Peter Noble and currently,like him or loathe him, Dele Alli. Goals were scored by players,not necessarily starting a move but by finishing it with a run from a deep position that wasn't picked up by the opposition. For all that Scotty has offered us I've not really seen that as part of his game

You've been given excellent examples of him doing exactly this on this thread.

dougcollins · Post by **dougcollins** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Continuously repeating the same actions with the same result.

That was today.

And very wet.

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:06 pm

Where's our record signing striker? Goals change games..goals win games!

Nonayforever · Post by **Nonayforever** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:34 pm

I will probably get slated by saying this, but I actually believe that Dyche doesn't want to win many games.

The reason I say this is down to the fact that if we were to win a few games and end the season in 7th position, Dyche would be doomed next season as no team has much hope of breaking into the top six.

We ( Burnley ) have moulded ourselves on the WBA & Stoke model of being financially stable and achieving mid table stability but this season has shown the vulnerability of that model.

Dyche has seen that and decided that to finish around 14th or 15th will be perceived to be a successful season.That will give him a sounding platform for next season to do better and therefore remain in a very lucrative job.

No team can go from putting together 30 passes to score a goal in one game to blind hoofing in another.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:55 pm

How would he be doomed?

Even the most smacked of his tits, I wouldn't want him in the trenches with me, negative, miserable people that inhabit this forum after a defeat would never ever want Dyche sacked.

Well, apart from KRBFC but in the nicest possible way, he's got his own views that are not shared by anybody else.