Rochdale v Spurs

[yTib]

6s and half dozens is a new one on me x

[Stayingup]

Will Ali get a BAFTA tonight?

[gsyclaret]

Txtd a mate there today this would happen when I saw him come on. And viola
Can't believe it was given.
Tbh dale should have had a pen in the first half when the defender cradled the ball on the floor..

Why wasn't it given ?

[dsr]

The most amazing thing is how refs continue to get fooled! Everyone said Alli was going to go down for a pen and he did and he still got fooled.

refs like Madley and Mason keep their jobs by not upsetting the big clubs. They can't be trusted to do the cup finals and top derbies, but as long as they don't give controversial decisions against the big six, they get to keep their jobs.

[k90bfc]

To rub salt in the wounds,when the penalty is given,Alli smirks,and almost says,THANK YOU,AGAIN!

[yTib]

refs like Madley and Mason keep their jobs by not upsetting the big clubs. They can't be trusted to do the cup finals and top derbies, but as long as they don't give controversial decisions against the big six, they get to keep their jobs.

i'd love to buy in to that conspiracy theory but i really think it's more a case of those individuals being as thick as pig shyt.

there are often tens of thousands of people watching as well as millions on the telly. just how ambitious do you have to be to just lie in front of such an audience?

no, it is sheer incompetence.

[Erasmus]

There needs to be some clear definition of what constitutes a trip. In this case, and the one against us, a leg was stuck out in front of him and he deliberately ran into it to get a penalty. He could have avoided it by changing his course. When this happens is it a trip? You could say that the defender has a right to put his leg in a vacant piece of pitch and occupy the ground. It was also disappointing that the TV men said nothing about the exaggeration, almost taking it for granted that this is what players do.

[yTib]

almost taking it for granted that this is what players do.

i wish it was almost erasmus.

it is part and parcel. i'm sure that the powers that be want to keep it that way as it stimulates debate and therefore interest in the game.

money is the bottom line. it is profitable to cheat.

[CharlieinNewMexico]

Didn't the word "intentional" used to be in the laws? You used to have to be intentionally tripping / handling, etc. Then it became seeking to gain an advantage. Now it's just if anyone makes contact with you.

[Rileybobs]

After this game I switched over to the Leeds match and there was a very similar incident just inside the 18 yard box. A Leeds player cut inside the box and a Bristol City player stuck a leg out, there was a bit of ‘contact’ but the Leeds player stayed on his feet and nothing was made of the incident.

The difference is the quality of gamesmanship, the players at the top Premier League sides are excellent at deception. The refs unfortunately fall for it and this season the pundits have started to fall for it. It’s not an exaggeration for me to say that this is ruining the game. I have no affiliation with Rochdale in the slightest and I actually like Spurs, but that incident made me angry. So predictable.

[Ashingtonclaret46]

I have watched two and a half games on TV today plus one local game live this morning.
One of those games was played between two teams who made no attempt to cheat or con the referee and it was a pleasure to watch and a very competitive match where the teams and their management showed respect to the match official.
The other games were full of players diving or going down holding their face after any slight contact was made and trying to get away with any method of conning the officials.
I leave you to guess which was which.

[BertFreemansShirt]

Well done Rochdale! I only watched the first half as I knew Kane and Alli would come on in the 2nd and I refuse to watch cheats.

[Greeny]

Delle up to his usual tricks.

Never a penalty in a month of Sunday’s. He threw himself in anticipation of “contact”.

A lot of these Premier League players must really struggle to walk round their local supermarkets at busier times. Following the pundits (+ a few on here) sticking to the “there was contact” view, if any of these players happen to brush past Auntie Doris on Aisle 3, they will immediately be on the floor under a pile of baked bean tins.

Rose did the same to win a free kick in the 2nd half. He knew he would get the decision - ridiculous.

Spuds obviously have a set of crash mats at training to rehearse their match day tumbling routines.

[addisclaret]

i'd love to buy in to that conspiracy theory but i really think it's more a case of those individuals being as thick as pig shyt.

there are often tens of thousands of people watching as well as millions on the telly. just how ambitious do you have to be to just lie in front of such an audience?

no, it is sheer incompetence.

Bit harsh on pig shyt that

[boatshed bill]

Its just cheating isn't it. They try to make it look real, but it's cheating.

Getting properly tired of it to be honest.

Dele Alli is the worst of them. He goes down in the box when looked at, but just look at his face and you know he wouldn't go down like that in a scrap, and you KNOW he would happily break someones leg on purpose in a `tackle`. For all his ability, i'd be happy if he never played for England again, and neither would I be happy if he ended up here.

Totally agree with this:
Horrible little sh!t.

[IanMcL]

Thought it was a penalty and also thought Rochdale could have had a penalty. There was enough "contact " , a coming together according to Danny Murphy. More genuine contact than the Ramsey pen perhaps going down naturally or he plays for Rochdale means it's a coming together.

You have it there.
Had the Rochdale incident been reversed, All or Kane would have been stabbed in the back and collapsed. Refs whistle would have been squeaking before they hit the ground. Never entered the Rochdale man's head. On the Spurs penalty, All does every movement himself. Retro ban including prison would not be enough.

[Burtonwoodclaret]

I was sickened by Deli Ali’s acrobatics and even more sickened by Rose’s childish face in the TV camera. These so called superstars behave more like spoilt children than mature adults.

[duncandisorderly]

Txtd a mate there today this would happen when I saw him come on. And viola

Prophecy. That's another string to your bow.

[KateR]

for what it's worth I thought:
it was a super game of football to watch, nearly did not as I thought it would be just a question of how many Spurs would score

How can Rochdale be where they are on that showing is beyond me

I thought it was a penalty, Ali was ahead and bursting through, defender puts a leg in his way and over he goes, would expect him to do it for England. If it happened to a BFC player would be howling if not given

Hope the replay is as good, and well done Rochdale as there players will get to grace Wembley, great achievement for them, well done.

[THEWELLERNUT70]

Players like Alli and pundits fawning over him and justifying his antics are reasons why I will eventually give up watching football. They are all complicit in the gradual erosion of integrity in the game

[dsr]

I thought it was a penalty, Ali was ahead and bursting through, defender puts a leg in his way and over he goes, would expect him to do it for England. If it happened to a BFC player would be howling if not given

That's one of the points. The defender's leg wasn't in his way.

And the other point is, what constitutes a trip. I know there';s a large school of thought, yourself presumably among them, that believes if you can get close enough to a defender that you can touch him and you throw yourself on the floor, then that means the defender has tripped you and it's a penalty. I don't think in any sensible definition of the wor that the defender has committed an offence when that happens. If they want to change the definition of a foul to "falling on the floor after two players touch", thebn they ought to go ahead and change it. We'll then have a competition to see who can throw themselves down the faster - a competition which Alli is clearly going to win. It will be fine entertainment for people who like watching players roll on the grass, but it's a bit hard on people who like football and are losing the chance.

[Bullabill]

cockneyclaret wrote:
Txtd a mate there today this would happen when I saw him come on. And viola

Does this mean that it was a fiddle?

[KateR]

That's one of the points. The defender's leg wasn't in his way.

And the other point is, what constitutes a trip. I know there';s a large school of thought, yourself presumably among them, that believes if you can get close enough to a defender that you can touch him and you throw yourself on the floor, then that means the defender has tripped you and it's a penalty. I don't think in any sensible definition of the wor that the defender has committed an offence when that happens. If they want to change the definition of a foul to "falling on the floor after two players touch", thebn they ought to go ahead and change it. We'll then have a competition to see who can throw themselves down the faster - a competition which Alli is clearly going to win. It will be fine entertainment for people who like watching players roll on the grass, but it's a bit hard on people who like football and are losing the chance.

Obviously we agree to differ, but nice of you to put in that last part of the sentence, clearly indicating I am obviously someone who does not like football, unlike yourself who is clearly an expert on things I can have no understanding about, glad that it is all cleared up.

Like yourself (I am assuming here) you watched on TV saw numerous angles, none of which the ref saw as far as I can make out. To me Ali was driving on goal and the defender put part of his body in the way of where he was going at speed and therefore he went down, it was not a trip, don't think I ever said it was however if I did then I was wrong. He impeded and put him off and blocked where he was going physically, I might be old but I can still run and feel if someone did that to me running at my slow speed I would be knocked of course and might fall, not definitely, but in his case it was moving him away from goal and a goal scoring opportunity.

Just for clarity though I would like to add a rider stating that I like football a lot, I hate diving and clear cheating which I do not believe this was. Unfortunately for Ali I have seen him do the dives and have totally disliked it and can not condone, it is I think in some cases a clear case of give a dog a bad name and any chance I get to berate him I will, as do many others.

I also like to think I am fair in assessments and always look at these as to what would I think if that was a BFC player, am convinced I would still believe it was a foul and a penalty, however as always that is IMO and I value yours, read it and try to think what are they saying. In this case you are over reacting and I believe you to be totally wrong, exactly as I expect you to believe I am also.

[yTib]

you accuse dsr of being patronising which (for once) he wasn't being and then this:

Unfortunately for Ali I have seen him do the dives and have totally disliked it and can not condone, it is I think in some cases a clear case of give a dog a bad name and any chance I get to berate him I will, as do many others

of course, my opinion on that blatant dive was influenced on his reputation and not at all based on my actual judgement.

arrogant beyond belief.

[dsr]

Obviously we agree to differ, but nice of you to put in that last part of the sentence, clearly indicating I am obviously someone who does not like football, unlike yourself who is clearly an expert on things I can have no understanding about, glad that it is all cleared up.

Like yourself (I am assuming here) you watched on TV saw numerous angles, none of which the ref saw as far as I can make out. To me Ali was driving on goal and the defender put part of his body in the way of where he was going at speed and therefore he went down, it was not a trip, don't think I ever said it was however if I did then I was wrong. He impeded and put him off and blocked where he was going physically, I might be old but I can still run and feel if someone did that to me running at my slow speed I would be knocked of course and might fall, not definitely, but in his case it was moving him away from goal and a goal scoring opportunity.

Just for clarity though I would like to add a rider stating that I like football a lot, I hate diving and clear cheating which I do not believe this was. Unfortunately for Ali I have seen him do the dives and have totally disliked it and can not condone, it is I think in some cases a clear case of give a dog a bad name and any chance I get to berate him I will, as do many others.

I also like to think I am fair in assessments and always look at these as to what would I think if that was a BFC player, am convinced I would still believe it was a foul and a penalty, however as always that is IMO and I value yours, read it and try to think what are they saying. In this case you are over reacting and I believe you to be totally wrong, exactly as I expect you to believe I am also.

By the time of the last sentence, I'd long since gone away from talking about you personally and was on to a general rant about the way the game is going. Sorry to give the wrong impression.

As for the penalty, there are ten offences for which a penalty can be given

"A direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any
of the following seven offences in a manner considered by the referee to be
careless, reckless or using excessive force:

• kicks or attempts to kick an opponent
• trips or attempts to trip an opponent
• jumps at an opponent
• charges an opponent
• strikes or attempts to strike an opponent
• pushes an opponent
• tackles an opponent

A direct free kick is also awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any
of the following three offences:
• holds an opponent
• spits at an opponent
• handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own
penalty area)"

We both agree that what the Rochdale man did wasn't a trip. But there's nothing else on that list that could constitute a penalty - what you describe would be an indirect free kick.

"An indirect free kick is also awarded to the opposing team if, in the opinion of
the referee, a player:
• plays in a dangerous manner
• impedes the progress of an opponent
• prevents the goalkeeper from releasing the ball from his hands
• commits any other offence, not previously mentioned in Law 12, for which
play is stopped to caution or send off a player"

[KateR]

sorry, and thank you for pointing out my mistake it should have read:

Unfortunately for Ali I have seen him do the dives and have totally disliked it and can not condone, it is I think in some cases a clear case of give a dog a bad name and any chance you/people get to berate him they will, as do many others

[Tall Paul]

A direct free kick is also awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any
of the following three offences:
• holds an opponent
• spits at an opponent
• handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own
penalty area)"

There's one offence missing from this list, which is what this penalty was probably given for:

• impedes an opponent with contact

You're also missing part of the list of indirect free kick offences:

"An indirect free kick is also awarded to the opposing team if, in the opinion of
the referee, a player:
• plays in a dangerous manner
• impedes the progress of an opponent without any contact being made
• prevents the goalkeeper from releasing the ball from his hands
• commits any other offence, not previously mentioned in Law 12, for which
play is stopped to caution or send off a player"

[KateR]

DSR, from your list of the first set of bullet points are you telling me if any of those occur in the opposing teams penalty area it should be a direct free kick and do you believe the ref should have awarded a direct free kick from where the incident with Ali happened? I can't believe you are, but as you have taken the trouble to provide this information can I please ask your opinion, what would have happened if the alleged offense had taken place outside the area, foul or not?

I certainly do believe myself the offense falls in to the last set of bullet point points:
"Impedes the progress of an opponent"

Therefore if there is a clear case of this happening inside the penalty area, is it any different in terms of it being a foul that that the referee should do something about?

[KateR]

ahhh see the change in red

well anticipated lol

[dsr]

There's one offence missing from this list, which is what this penalty was probably given for:

• impedes an opponent with contact

You're also missing part of the list of indirect free kick offences:

Thanks, I didn't know they'd changed the laws to cover Alli's sort of diving. My quote was from the 2016/17 laws.

[dsr]

DSR, from your list of the first set of bullet points are you telling me if any of those occur in the opposing teams penalty area it should be a direct free kick and do you believe the ref should have awarded a direct free kick from where the incident with Ali happened? I can't believe you are, but as you have taken the trouble to provide this information can I please ask your opinion, what would have happened if the alleged offense had taken place outside the area, foul or not?

I certainly do believe myself the offense falls in to the last set of bullet point points:
"Impedes the progress of an opponent"

Therefore if there is a clear case of this happening inside the penalty area, is it any different in terms of it being a foul that that the referee should do something about?

But having said that, all it means is that far more free kicks and penalties should be given. If the law says that a defender being somewhere where a forward wants to be is a foul, then all a forward has to do is run towards a defender, touch him, and fall down - like I said earlier. Which at least explains why Alli gets so many penalties and never gets done for diving. The whole thing stinks.

Under the old obstruction rule, a defender had to move into the path of a forward for it to be a foul. Now, he doesn't - he just has to be in the way.

(Should I ignore your point about direct free kicks in the penalty area? A direct free kick offence committed in your own penalty area is a penalty. That's made clear in the next bit of the FIFA laws which Ididn't quote because I assumed we all knew that.) My opinion of free kicks is that there are either far too many or far too few - they give free kicks for the slightest contact if the player falls down. Either they should stop giving free kicks for the slightest contact, or else they should give them for all slight contacts whether the player falls down or not. Whatever disagreements we might have over Alli's penalty, I'm sure we can both all agree that in accordance with the laws, a penalty depends on what the defender does - not what the attacker does.

[KateR]

totally agree with your last part of the sentence at the very end.

I still also do get confused with, is it obstruction or not and why some players are not penalized when it is done yet some seem to but not sure why since as you state I know obstruction is not an offense anymore.

I would like to see less diving, less fouls for minimal contact that does not really impede or trip a player, like it when ref's let the game flow, plus really like when some ref's could blow but think there may be an advantage and allow play to go on, but bring it back when there is not. But that's a whole different discussion

[Tall Paul]

Thanks, I didn't know they'd changed the laws to cover Alli's sort of diving. My quote was from the 2016/17 laws.

You're welcome.

The missing parts were in the 16/17 laws as well though.

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