Wingers
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Re: Wingers
I'll let you into a little secret,we don,t play with wingers.
We play with wide midfielders,who sometimes get out wide and put a cross in.
We play with wide midfielders,who sometimes get out wide and put a cross in.
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Re: Wingers
Well Lennon certainly played as a left winger today
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Re: Wingers
Nearly all the teams in the league play with inverted wingers.
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Re: Wingers
I once had an ingrowing toe nail - no good.
Re: Wingers
They're not wingers, they're secondary fullbacks.
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Re: Wingers
lennon is wasted on the wrong side, he looks hesitant and wrong footed, too clumsy there to be effective
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Re: Wingers
And put a cross in that led to our goal.....Roosterbooster wrote:Well Lennon certainly played as a left winger today
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Re: Wingers
Lennon has turned into a dyche winger. A hardworker. Who tracks back. Cuts inside and occasionally looks dangerous.
Should be bombing down the right side - his right side!
Should be bombing down the right side - his right side!
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Re: Wingers
There are No Wingers on this board
Yes I left out the H deliberately.
Yes I left out the H deliberately.
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Re: Wingers
I said on another thread, they switched yesterday but it didn't result in a miraculous increase of quality crosses into the box.
Re: Wingers
Did you go on the Man City game?JohnMac wrote:I said on another thread, they switched yesterday but it didn't result in a miraculous increase of quality crosses into the box.
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Re: Wingers
Yes and it worked that day but not at Swansea and not yesterday.3putt wrote:Did you go on the Man City game?
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Re: Wingers
I like JBG on the right. No point in fielding two right wingers. Get GKN out there on the left, please, let's see what he can do.
Re: Wingers
JBG first half checked back looking for Lowton what seemed like every time, although our best 2 headers of the football were on the bench, so no surprise we wasn't whipping balls in the box at every opportunity.
Re: Wingers
JBG on the right and give Nkoudou a full game on the left. Play Barnes and Wood as twin centre forwards. Lennon and Hendrick on the bench.
............................Pope
.....Lowton....Tarks....Mee....Ward
JBG.....Westwood......Cork......Nkoudou
...............Barnes.........Wood
............................Pope
.....Lowton....Tarks....Mee....Ward
JBG.....Westwood......Cork......Nkoudou
...............Barnes.........Wood
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Re: Wingers
Mala591 is a bit of a tactical genius. He starts a thread every week outlining where we’ve gone wrong if we don’t get a good result.
This week’s is a good one though. We’ve been playing this way right through Laws, Howe & now Dyche.
This week’s is a good one though. We’ve been playing this way right through Laws, Howe & now Dyche.
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Re: Wingers
I completely get the logic of inverted wingers and I'd argue it has worked very well for us under successive managers. You could even point to the fact that our goal came from a cross from one inverted winger being knocked back across by the opposite inverted winger to support the argument it worked on Saturday.
I'm not absolutely sure it did, though. I think one slight issue we have that the moment is that both our available wide players prefer the right flank - JBG does, despite being left footed, and Lennon clearly does. He's reached the age of 30 playing almost exclusively on the right and he looked a fish out of water on the left for long periods on Saturday (as he did against City too, albeit against tougher opposition).
Even if Dyche likes JBG on the right too, I'd have expected a lot more interchanging than we saw on Saturday. Perhaps Dyche wanted Lennon to attack Cedric rather than Betrand (who is quick), but even if that's right, the consequence was that whenever either player got the ball, their first reaction was to check rather than go at pace, and it slowed our build up. Having signed Lennon to give us the pacey, direct threat we've lacked at times, it feels a bit odd that we aren't using him in the position in which he's made his career exploiting it.
I'm not convinced that Barnes is the best person to create the sort of space Lennon thrives in attacking (behind/down the side of the left centre half), and I think Vokes would be a better foil, but that's a secondary point.
I'm not absolutely sure it did, though. I think one slight issue we have that the moment is that both our available wide players prefer the right flank - JBG does, despite being left footed, and Lennon clearly does. He's reached the age of 30 playing almost exclusively on the right and he looked a fish out of water on the left for long periods on Saturday (as he did against City too, albeit against tougher opposition).
Even if Dyche likes JBG on the right too, I'd have expected a lot more interchanging than we saw on Saturday. Perhaps Dyche wanted Lennon to attack Cedric rather than Betrand (who is quick), but even if that's right, the consequence was that whenever either player got the ball, their first reaction was to check rather than go at pace, and it slowed our build up. Having signed Lennon to give us the pacey, direct threat we've lacked at times, it feels a bit odd that we aren't using him in the position in which he's made his career exploiting it.
I'm not convinced that Barnes is the best person to create the sort of space Lennon thrives in attacking (behind/down the side of the left centre half), and I think Vokes would be a better foil, but that's a secondary point.
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Re: Wingers
Always very hard to `argue` with you, Claretspice. You always put your points across in a very clear, logical way.claretspice wrote:I completely get the logic of inverted wingers and I'd argue it has worked very well for us under successive managers. You could even point to the fact that our goal came from a cross from one inverted winger being knocked back across by the opposite inverted winger to support the argument it worked on Saturday.
I'm not absolutely sure it did, though. I think one slight issue we have that the moment is that both our available wide players prefer the right flank - JBG does, despite being left footed, and Lennon clearly does. He's reached the age of 30 playing almost exclusively on the right and he looked a fish out of water on the left for long periods on Saturday (as he did against City too, albeit against tougher opposition).
Even if Dyche likes JBG on the right too, I'd have expected a lot more interchanging than we saw on Saturday. Perhaps Dyche wanted Lennon to attack Cedric rather than Betrand (who is quick), but even if that's right, the consequence was that whenever either player got the ball, their first reaction was to check rather than go at pace, and it slowed our build up. Having signed Lennon to give us the pacey, direct threat we've lacked at times, it feels a bit odd that we aren't using him in the position in which he's made his career exploiting it.
I'm not convinced that Barnes is the best person to create the sort of space Lennon thrives in attacking (behind/down the side of the left centre half), and I think Vokes would be a better foil, but that's a secondary point.
Re: Wingers
claretspice wrote:I completely get the logic of inverted wingers and I'd argue it has worked very well for us under successive managers. You could even point to the fact that our goal came from a cross from one inverted winger being knocked back across by the opposite inverted winger to support the argument it worked on Saturday.
I'm not absolutely sure it did, though. I think one slight issue we have that the moment is that both our available wide players prefer the right flank - JBG does, despite being left footed, and Lennon clearly does. He's reached the age of 30 playing almost exclusively on the right and he looked a fish out of water on the left for long periods on Saturday (as he did against City too, albeit against tougher opposition).
Even if Dyche likes JBG on the right too, I'd have expected a lot more interchanging than we saw on Saturday. Perhaps Dyche wanted Lennon to attack Cedric rather than Betrand (who is quick), but even if that's right, the consequence was that whenever either player got the ball, their first reaction was to check rather than go at pace, and it slowed our build up. Having signed Lennon to give us the pacey, direct threat we've lacked at times, it feels a bit odd that we aren't using him in the position in which he's made his career exploiting it.
I'm not convinced that Barnes is the best person to create the sort of space Lennon thrives in attacking (behind/down the side of the left centre half), and I think Vokes would be a better foil, but that's a secondary point.
Don't always agree with your points, but I think this in nail on the head. Lennon could and should be a great asset for us, but he is wasted on the left. I watched him closely on Saturday and he really did look uncomfortable (other than the one cross for the goal). I really hope that Dyche recognises this and starts playing him in his natural position.
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Re: Wingers
In fairness, I think we have to give the team and Lennon time to adapt to one another. We're not used to having wingers whose first thought is to run beyond the striker - its not something we've ever had under Dyche. We've generally had wingers whose job has been to drop inside and look to dink balls into the strikers, back up the second ball and/or make space for the full back on the outside.
Lennon gives us something different - he gives us the option of a winger who wants to spring the space beyond the striker. Part of Dyche's thinking may be that at the moment, the other players aren't quite seeing that pass because they aren't used to it. We saw it once on Saturday when Ben Mee of all people sprung Lennon (and McCarthy handled outside the box). It may well be that once Dyche begins to see those combinations in training he's more inclined to use Lennon on the right, even at the expense of getting the best out of JBG.
Lennon gives us something different - he gives us the option of a winger who wants to spring the space beyond the striker. Part of Dyche's thinking may be that at the moment, the other players aren't quite seeing that pass because they aren't used to it. We saw it once on Saturday when Ben Mee of all people sprung Lennon (and McCarthy handled outside the box). It may well be that once Dyche begins to see those combinations in training he's more inclined to use Lennon on the right, even at the expense of getting the best out of JBG.
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Re: Wingers
Lennon should be on the right running directly and at pace. Its second nature to him. One of the games i always remember lennon is when he did just that as a 16 or 17 year old for leeds against us. he was fantastic.
Jbg is clearly more adaptable. He can still cut inside from the left too. And he can clearly cross with his left or he wouldnt be on corners.
Jbg is clearly more adaptable. He can still cut inside from the left too. And he can clearly cross with his left or he wouldnt be on corners.
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Re: Wingers
Dyche likes players who fit the system. Look at Boyd for example. Perfect player to play number 10. Excellent record playing there at Peterborough and we play him on the wing using his graft rather than skill.
Then we have Lennon who has pace and is capable of getting to the byline and whipping/cutting back a pass and we try playing him on the left.
I know the tactics are to favour the full backs and to turn defenders on the wrong side but if Lennon isn't an all out traditional winger if there ever was one then I don't know who is.
And of course we play a player who has the vision of a bat in attacking midfield.
But it's all about the system and we generally do that well.
Then we have Lennon who has pace and is capable of getting to the byline and whipping/cutting back a pass and we try playing him on the left.
I know the tactics are to favour the full backs and to turn defenders on the wrong side but if Lennon isn't an all out traditional winger if there ever was one then I don't know who is.
And of course we play a player who has the vision of a bat in attacking midfield.
But it's all about the system and we generally do that well.
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Re: Wingers
So it doesnt work with Aaron on the left?The goal on Saturday came from a left wing Aaron cross.Helped acoss to Hendrick by JBG also on the"wrong"wing
Re: Wingers
It should be blindingly obvious to any football fan that 30 year old Lennon is a right winger. It should be equally obvious to any fan that he is far less effective and comfortable on the left. He struggled to beat his man and get crosses in on Saturday, fortunately on one of the very few occasions he did manage it to get a cross in it lead to our goal. That doesn't mean playing him out position works.Woodleyclaret wrote:So it doesnt work with Aaron on the left?The goal on Saturday came from a left wing Aaron cross.Helped acoss to Hendrick by JBG also on the"wrong"wing
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Re: Wingers
In fairness I dont think you'll get any more crosses from Lennon on the right. That's not his game and never been. He's actually probably better at swinging a cross in from the left checking back than on the run on the right (easier to wrap his foot around it).
Lennon's game has always been about getting down the sides and behind the left centre back/ left back and looking for pull backs or square passes from inside the box, or indeed shooting. But that does take a bit of getting used to for teammates.
Lennon's game has always been about getting down the sides and behind the left centre back/ left back and looking for pull backs or square passes from inside the box, or indeed shooting. But that does take a bit of getting used to for teammates.
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Re: Wingers
Lennon's worst performance for us so far was when he was on the right at Swansea and JBG was poor on the left. So not surprised to see us go back to the other way round last Saturday.
Re: Wingers
We have four players competing for two positions, JBG Lennon Arfield Nkoudou.
Over the last few weeks JBG has become a 'double marked man' the opposition know he is our greatest midfield threat and he has less space and time to be effective. Still a great player though. I think he links well with Lowton and is more comfortable on the right wing.
I agree with claretspice ( does he have voice recognition software ) that Lennon needs more time to settle in and he has enough skill and experience to be able to play on either wing.
Arfield is Arfield we all know his strengths and weaknesses.
Nkoudou mustn't be impressing very much in training ( doesn't fit the framework? ) but he looks very skilful and is a natural left sided player, his chance might come when we have a few more points and guaranteed safety. I am looking forward to seeing him play a full match.
Over the last few weeks JBG has become a 'double marked man' the opposition know he is our greatest midfield threat and he has less space and time to be effective. Still a great player though. I think he links well with Lowton and is more comfortable on the right wing.
I agree with claretspice ( does he have voice recognition software ) that Lennon needs more time to settle in and he has enough skill and experience to be able to play on either wing.
Arfield is Arfield we all know his strengths and weaknesses.
Nkoudou mustn't be impressing very much in training ( doesn't fit the framework? ) but he looks very skilful and is a natural left sided player, his chance might come when we have a few more points and guaranteed safety. I am looking forward to seeing him play a full match.
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Re: Wingers
Nokoudou is a young player and doesnt have the tactical knowledge defensively hence he will never play; compare that with Lennon who is experienced and knows football and comes straight into the side despite not having the 'getting used to us & and him' training period; all pretty predictable really.
SD doesnt trust younger players for their lack of experience and knowledge of the game.
SD doesnt trust younger players for their lack of experience and knowledge of the game.
Re: Wingers
But he is and always has been a right winger and a highly successful one at that.ClaretTony wrote:Lennon's worst performance for us so far was when he was on the right at Swansea and JBG was poor on the left. So not surprised to see us go back to the other way round last Saturday.
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Re: Wingers
claretspice wrote:In fairness I dont think you'll get any more crosses from Lennon on the right. That's not his game and never been. He's actually probably better at swinging a cross in from the left checking back than on the run on the right (easier to wrap his foot around it).
Lennon's game has always been about getting down the sides and behind the left centre back/ left back and looking for pull backs or square passes from inside the box, or indeed shooting. But that does take a bit of getting used to for teammates.
Nothing more effective than a pacy wide man who can get down to the by-line and play a low hard pull back into the box or indeed square passes on the deck from inside the box.
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Re: Wingers
I don't disagree but any play of that nature is only as good as the ball that exploits his run and the player who gets into a position to capitalise on the pull back. Its not something we as a team are particularly used to looking for and so that will take time. Although he was on the wrong side, we only sprang Lennon in behind the defence once on Saturday (when McCarthy handled) and then because Hendrick broke through in midfield and drew a couple of defenders infield to deal with the danger before he checked back (and of all people, it was Mee who played the pass). That isn't the only time Lennon was looking for that sort of pass, so I'm not sure we are quite attuned to it yet.3putt wrote:
Nothing more effective than a pacy wide man who can get down to the by-line and play a low hard pull back into the box or indeed square passes on the deck from inside the box.
As I said at the start, I think Lennon would be more effective on the right - I'm just casting around for reasons why Dyche thought differently, because there must be one. I take Tony's comment about Swansea away but I don't think that entirely answers the question - having brought in Westwood to help us control the game better in midfield and improve the supply chain, at face value it would have been worth having Lennon in the position where he might best capitalise on Westwood's passing (there was one great first time ball down the right channel in the first half that Lennon might have made much more of).
Re: Wingers
claretspice wrote:I don't disagree but any play of that nature is only as good as the ball that exploits his run and the player who gets into a position to capitalise on the pull back. Its not something we as a team are particularly used to looking for and so that will take time. Although he was on the wrong side, we only sprang Lennon in behind the defence once on Saturday (when McCarthy handled) and then because Hendrick broke through in midfield and drew a couple of defenders infield to deal with the danger before he checked back (and of all people, it was Mee who played the pass). That isn't the only time Lennon was looking for that sort of pass, so I'm not sure we are quite attuned to it yet.
As I said at the start, I think Lennon would be more effective on the right - I'm just casting around for reasons why Dyche thought differently, because there must be one. I take Tony's comment about Swansea away but I don't think that entirely answers the question - having brought in Westwood to help us control the game better in midfield and improve the supply chain, at face value it would have been worth having Lennon in the position where he might best capitalise on Westwood's passing (there was one great first time ball down the right channel in the first half that Lennon might have made much more of).
I really like the pull backs from the by-line as they are much harder for defenders to deal with than aerial crosses that are being delivered from less deep positions and can often lead to own goals.
If you had Lennon doing this regularly, you just need a couple of men bursting into the opposition box with pace. This may well suit Hendrick and JBG and I think would lead to more goals being scored. Which is certainly something we need to improve on.