The false narrative of unnecessary ground expansion at BFC

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:32 pm

Just looked at the seats available if purchasing an Early Bird ST as a new/returning punter.

The seats available are the definition of sporadic. If you were, for example, a family of 4 looking for a new set of ST's, you are incredibly limited in terms of where you can sit.

It is surely the time to build extra capacity to give attractive new ST options for new ST holders.

I would also argue for a sector or two to be reserved for Walk on fans, so that it isnt nigh on impossible for a parent to take their kid for their first game on the turf, and who knows, maybe they then will buy a ST?

Sure we don't "sell out" every game or even the ST's to an extent, but when 3 lads would have to sit apart, and an adult with a kid may just not bother as they couldn't sit together, is it surprising?

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:40 pm

Another 3-5k would be fine but we don't need more at present.

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:42 pm

All well and good, however, when, or if, relegation happens we revert to around 13000 average.
Add to that the fact that there are quite a number of fans who are moaning now about the style of football etc and threatening non-attendance in the future.
Nothing worse than a half empty stadium.

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:43 pm

Coincidentally, I've just been onto the club about seat swap and it is coming but no date has been set.

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:46 pm

Blackrod wrote:Another 3-5k would be fine but we don't need more at present.

The clear choice for me would be to replace the roof of the Bob Lord, and therefore the stantions which devalue so many seats in there, and add a second tier in the process. There is room to increase the footprint if need be, but really you could overhang a fair way over HPW with no real negative effect on the nearby housing

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:47 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:All well and good, however, when, or if, relegation happens we revert to around 13000 average.
Add to that the fact that there are quite a number of fans who are moaning now about the style of football etc and threatening non-attendance in the future.
Nothing worse than a half empty stadium.

Then give seats to schools, engaging kids who maybe couldnt afford it otherwise once or twice a season? Then who knows how many of them then become ST holders in their own right later on. We have to sew seeds while we have the cash

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:53 pm

If you disagree, that's fine, but take a look at the seats currently available, and tell me if you honestly believe it wouldnt be worth some limited expansion.

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:15 pm

piston broke wrote:Coincidentally, I've just been onto the club about seat swap and it is coming but no date has been set.

One idea i had would be to incentivise ST holders now in the JMU, but all now adults, or at least 16+ to move into an alt stand, such as JHU wings, for the same price for 1 season, freeing up availability for new younger fans with their parents.

Would this appeal?

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:26 pm

ZizkovClaret wrote:One idea i had would be to incentivise ST holders now in the JMU, but all now adults, or at least 16+ to move into an alt stand, such as JHU wings, for the same price for 1 season, freeing up availability for new younger fans with their parents.

Would this appeal?

Not in my case, Zizkov. We are just trying to get family together in JHU.
In general it sounds good.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:28 pm

ZizkovClaret wrote:One idea i had would be to incentivise ST holders now in the JMU, but all now adults, or at least 16+ to move into an alt stand, such as JHU wings, for the same price for 1 season, freeing up availability for new younger fans with their parents.

Would this appeal?

Not sure I've read that right, but sounds like you want people to move to a poorer , cheaper seat for the same price of their better more expensive view, for the same price.

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:31 pm

ZizkovClaret wrote:Then give seats to schools, engaging kids who maybe couldnt afford it otherwise once or twice a season? Then who knows how many of them then become ST holders in their own right later on. We have to sew seeds while we have the cash

I've long thought empty seats could be given to local schools, in rotation. The problem is who takes responsibility for them? If they come on a bus, as a school, you are looking at teachers or guardians in large numbers for out of school activities and who pays for their tickets?

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:32 pm

MACCA wrote:Not sure I've read that right, but sounds like you want people to move to a poorer , cheaper seat for the same price of their better more expensive view, for the same price.

The move would be for ST holders in JMU who are all now outside of the intended residents of JMU, being the family stand.

It would mean a move from JMU, to JHU wings, which would be to a more expensive seat, but subsidised to reward to willingness to move.

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:34 pm

piston broke wrote:I've long thought empty seats could be given to local schools, in rotation. The problem is who takes responsibility for them? If they come on a bus, as a school, you are looking at teachers or guardians in large numbers for out of school activities and who pays for their tickets?

I think given the finances, a block of 50 seats, with appropriate ration of adults to kids, would be a decent investment in creating interest among kids, who may be future clarets.

A kid of say 8, enjoys his trip, then badgers his folks to take him again. It's spending money to make money, and it's long term. Like an old fella planting an olive tree he will never see the fruit from.

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:35 pm

piston broke wrote:I've long thought empty seats could be given to local schools, in rotation. The problem is who takes responsibility for them? If they come on a bus, as a school, you are looking at teachers or guardians in large numbers for out of school activities and who pays for their tickets?

The issue currently is that there are few spots where you can put a block of people together. A limited, strategic expansion would solve this.

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:41 pm

ZizkovClaret wrote:The issue currently is that there are few spots where you can put a block of people together. A limited, strategic expansion would solve this.

I'm not against your idea. A block of 50 on the wing of the JML would only raise £1500 in ticket sales, a pittance to what it could return in long term following.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:52 pm

ZizkovClaret wrote:The move would be for ST holders in JMU who are all now outside of the intended residents of JMU, being the family stand.

It would mean a move from JMU, to JHU wings, which would be to a more expensive seat, but subsidised to reward to willingness to move.

Sorry reading off a phone with these lamps, I thought they both said JHU
I do apologise.

Yes I get you know. Great idea. Frees up places for adult and child combos.

Where we used to sit before CFS opened every adult got a free child even if they didn't need/use It, as the offer was there. Used to be spare seats every single game.

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:55 pm

MACCA wrote:Sorry reading off a phone with these lamps, I thought they both said JHU
I do apologise.

Yes I get you know. Great idea. Frees up places for adult and child combos.

Where we used to sit before CFS opened every adult got a free child even if they didn't need/use It, as the offer was there. Used to be spare seats every single game.

Cheers. Trouble is, without expansion, there aint always going to be room to move into

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:01 pm

It would be a gamble, sure, but we think nothing of paying say 5m for a player, who with wages may end up costing 10m over a 4 year contract, and may have next to no impact on our team.

It's not even instead of, but if a spend of that same 10m quid can deliver 3-4k new seats, improved views from the Bob Lord, and great new options for walk on fans and new ST holders, isn't it worth a punt?

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:27 pm

Cricket club purchase is essential. New stand housing everything, changing rooms, proper layer car park, entrance etc. join it with the JH in some way ( just for atmosphere, and to tidy it up, but still 2 seperate stands ) keeping tunnel where it is. Opens all behind up for more car parks eateries. Tv crews etc. ( safer for fans too )

Make new stand 6k ish with proper segregation. Safer and newer facilities for fans to use. Take capacity nearer 24k if possible.

I'd also look to connect it at the other side too with the bob lord, again even if just to tidy up and help the atmospher

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:27 pm

I don’t disagree with building further back on the Bob Lord. On face value it would seem a good idea to add standard and corporate seats as well as removing the pillars.

Do we know that it’s actually feasible without replacing the whole thing? Even if it is, what is the lifespan of the current BL stand and is it long enough to add to it?

I’d love a larger Bob Lord, in a traditional style, with a far grander frontage.

wilks_bfc · Post by **wilks_bfc** » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:31 pm

When my dad was away we tried to move our 3 seats from JML to JMU for a game so we could take my nephew on but there wasn’t 3 together anywhere in the stand.

We were going to relocate and get him his first ST when we renewed last season, but again we couldn’t get 4 together. They said we could get 4 individual then try the seat swap but even then not guaranteed.

mybloodisclaret · Post by **mybloodisclaret** » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:35 pm

The Bob Lord is an embarrassment at the moment. It looks dreadful from outside.

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:21 pm

If we stay up for a few years and end up kicking around mid table novelty will soon wear off and our crowds will drop.

Claretforever · Post by **Claretforever** » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:59 pm

We can’t consider expansion as it will risk the entire future of our football club....according to far too many nutcases on Facebook.

Yeah, because the right time to consider expansion to not just improve facilities for the current fans, but for enough spare capacity to be able to entice new future fans by spreading the net, isn’t when we have tonnes of cash and are profitable. So it must be when we have no money and can’t afford it?

I don’t think people realise that when we built the Bob Lord stand it cost our yearly turnover or more, and times were tough. Right now we have a £130m turnover, are posting sizeable profits, and the cost would be circa £15-20m?

KeighleyClaret · Post by **KeighleyClaret** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:22 pm

ZizkovClaret wrote:The move would be for ST holders in JMU who are all now outside of the intended residents of JMU, being the family stand.

It would mean a move from JMU, to JHU wings, which would be to a more expensive seat, but subsidised to reward to willingness to move.

I’ve had JMU tickets since the stand opened in 1996. I queued for 4 hrs in the rain to get row C behind the goal. My son was 9 at the time and will be 31 this year. Originally you had to buy a child ticket to sit there as an adult, but this was ditched many years ago. It’s still a family atmosphere but there are no restrictions on who can sit there. I can see no possible incentive that could persuade me to give my seats up, sorry.
Maybe start bargaining with your own seat? How about recycling the central section of the JHU? No thought not.

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:31 pm

KeighleyClaret wrote:I’ve had JMU tickets since the stand opened in 1996. I queued for 4 hrs in the rain to get row C behind the goal. My son was 9 at the time and will be 31 this year. Originally you had to buy a child ticket to sit there as an adult, but this was ditched many years ago. It’s still a family atmosphere but there are no restrictions on who can sit there. I can see no possible incentive that could persuade me to give my seats up, sorry.
Maybe start bargaining with your own seat? How about recycling the central section of the JHU? No thought not.

It would by no means be compulsory.

JimmyMac'sMate · Post by **JimmyMac'sMate** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:09 pm

everybody stop being so ungrateful where you can sit were you carnt what about the poor people thrown in the corner in all weathers with no seats at all I know we are building stands for the disabled supporters about time to be grateful you can get to your seats rant over utc

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:11 pm

JMU should definitely just be a family stand. It's just weird that there are middle aged people retaining their seats there.

Walt · Post by **Walt** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:16 pm

I can completely understand why someone in the family stand wouldn't want to give up their seat having been there since construction.

Isn't this restricting new fans coming though as that's where the free u12 season tickets go?

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:27 pm

JimmyMac'sMate wrote:everybody stop being so ungrateful where you can sit were you carnt what about the poor people thrown in the corner in all weathers with no seats at all I know we are building stands for the disabled supporters about time to be grateful you can get to your seats rant over utc

I don't think either development needs to be mutually exclusive. You can try to do 2 things at once

CharlieinNewMexico · Post by **CharlieinNewMexico** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:40 pm

This is the problem with turning all your clientele into St holders. Everyone is so invested and doesn't want to move (and rightly so).

The sensible answer would be have a section of the ground where tickets are ONLY sold in 2s, 4s, and 6s (odds would screw it up). But you'd still have to move people to make it work or build something

AlargeClaret · Post by **AlargeClaret** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:47 pm

the Overriding problem is they’d have to close 1 of either the BL or CFS which would leave people all over . I presumed the BL was a planning nightmare but it’s a pathetic little stand which brings the club down imo . Should bite the bullet and knock down CFS and sort out maybe some temp seats for the away lot

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:49 pm

I honestly think, given what Liverpool were able to do with their main stand, we could add an extra tier to the Bob Lord without much in-season disruption

bartons baggage · Post by **bartons baggage** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:00 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:All well and good, however, when, or if, relegation happens we revert to around 13000 average.
Add to that the fact that there are quite a number of fans who are moaning now about the style of football etc and threatening non-attendance in the future.
Nothing worse than a half empty stadium.

One or two numpties on here spouting crap after a game doesn't mean anything.
The op has a valid point if you want three tickets and they're in different areas of the stand it would be off putting.

NL Claret · Post by **NL Claret** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:22 pm

On Saturday there was a block of seats towards the JM end of the JHL which was full about 20 minutes before KO. They looked fairly young so would guess a community initiative. CT reported Saturday was the highest home fans attendance so maybe tickets were given away as it was Southampton. It wouldn't happen if it were one of the big 6 when there is more demand.

When City put the third tier on the North Stand (away end) a few years back they put the prices up significantly in another area of the ground or offered the season tickets another seat in the top tier at the same price.

Burnleyareback2 · Post by **Burnleyareback2** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:33 pm

Limited expansion is all we need, but this will have limited return.
We just need to sit tight until safe standing is granted and the CF will be redeveloped.

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:35 pm

I'm fairly sure that when the BL was originally planned it was going to be significantly larger and possibly 2 tier. At the last minute Bob Lord himself decided to scale things back due to the cost, but it may well be that the "basis" of a larger structure is already in place which would make extending it easier. We really don't need thousands of more seats and we definitely don't want to waste loads of money on building a white elephant. (We wouldn't be the first)
Also what's a shame is that the TV cameras are understandably placed in the JH, but that means the BL is constantly in view and it looks a bit tin pot in PL terms tbh. Before the demise of the Longside they used to film from the BL which was better.

deanothedino · Post by **deanothedino** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:56 pm

Dark Cloud wrote:I'm fairly sure that when the BL was originally planned it was going to be significantly larger and possibly 2 tier. At the last minute Bob Lord himself decided to scale things back due to the cost, but it may well be that the "basis" of a larger structure is already in place which would make extending it easier. We really don't need thousands of more seats and we definitely don't want to waste loads of money on building a white elephant. (We wouldn't be the first)
Also what's a shame is that the TV cameras are understandably placed in the JH, but that means the BL is constantly in view and it looks a bit tin pot in PL terms tbh. Before the demise of the Longside they used to film from the BL which was better.

The media love the view over the top of the Bob Lord though (it is pretty nice tbf)

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:15 pm

The capacity of the ground in the early 1970s was 38000 and our average gate was 20634 in 1973/4 which was the season we had gone back into the first division. This is the highest average gate until 2009/10 when we gained promotion to the PL and averaged 20654 whic is 20 more than 36 years previously and was still not up to capacity.
I understand the problems being discussed, however, we have only averaged more than 20000 in 4 seasons in the last 50 years and two of those were over 40 years ago.
Press the club for expansion in order to accommodate those who are now trying to get season tickets together but then don't moan about not filling the stadium when or if the Clarets get relegated.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:17 pm

Dark Cloud wrote:Also what's a shame is that the TV cameras are understandably placed in the JH, but that means the BL is constantly in view and it looks a bit tin pot in PL terms tbh. Before the demise of the Longside they used to film from the BL which was better.

I much prefer an attitude of "we are Burnley, this is who we are" rather than "oh no, we're not like all the other Premier clubs, let's clone ourselves and have a ground just like all the others". We're a small town club, and pretending we're not will harm us, not help us.

If other clubs think we're tin pot, that's their business, not ours. We can count our trophies instead. (And before anyone asks, only 8 of the current Premier league have been champions more of ten than us.)

PutTheWheelieBinsOut · Post by **PutTheWheelieBinsOut** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:30 pm

I worry that theres a lack of commitment by the board to Turf Moor, the club could afford a new stand right now. Before we were in the Premier League we had very little money but even then the board talked about various plans for the cricket field stand, even then they had a vision for Turf Moor, but since we've had money theres been no vision, we have been literally painting over the cracks in the last few years. I can't help feeling these 2 corner stands have been forced on the club by the Premier League with their rules for disabled supporters, they are not part of a long term plan for Turf Moor.
I think either the board are waiting for some kind of takeover before committing to ground redevelopment or they simply don't see Turf Moor as the future of BFC.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:34 pm

PutTheWheelieBinsOut wrote:I worry that theres a lack of commitment by the board to Turf Moor, the club could afford a new stand right now. Before we were in the Premier League we had very little money but even then the board talked about various plans for the cricket field stand, even then they had a vision for Turf Moor, but since we've had money theres been no vision, we have been literally painting over the cracks in the last few years. I can't help feeling these 2 corner stands have been forced on the club by the Premier League with their rules for disabled supporters, they are not part of a long term plan for Turf Moor.
I think either the board are waiting for some kind of takeover before committing to ground redevelopment or they simply don't see Turf Moor as the future of BFC.

You're sure they're not waiting on safe standing?

Remember those plans for the Cricket Field stand - the Bread Bin? Sometimes no vision is better than forward planning! The main thing that the Cricket Field stand and Bob Lord stand have at present, is wide comfortable seats to watch the match from. Personally, that's the most important thing - I wouldn't want to swap my seat for a cramped plastic tip-up, even if it did mean the paintwork looked better.

PutTheWheelieBinsOut · Post by **PutTheWheelieBinsOut** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:39 pm

dsr wrote:You're sure they're not waiting on safe standing?

Remember those plans for the Cricket Field stand - the Bread Bin? Sometimes no vision is better than forward planning!

No safe standing is a 'fan issue' it's not a business issue. Anyway they could easily have an area of any new stand that could be initially seating and then turned in to a safe standing area if and when the rules permitted it.

Claretforever · Post by **Claretforever** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:41 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:The capacity of the ground in the early 1970s was 38000 and our average gate was 20634 in 1973/4 which was the season we had gone back into the first division. This is the highest average gate until 2009/10 when we gained promotion to the PL and averaged 20654 whic is 20 more than 36 years previously and was still not up to capacity.
I understand the problems being discussed, however, we have only averaged more than 20000 in 4 seasons in the last 50 years and two of those were over 40 years ago.
Press the club for expansion in order to accommodate those who are now trying to get season tickets together but then don't moan about not filling the stadium when or if the Clarets get relegated.

I totally get your point. The thing is that people have changed, and are will to travel a little again for top tier football. Nowadays they travel by car rather than bus, but if we had a larger capacity we would definitely have average a couple of thousand more than what we have in recent seasons.

Example: when we sell out v Man United 5-6 weeks before it suggests we could have sold 5,000 more home tickets. United could sell AT LEAST 10,000 for that game, so we could, in theory, have sold 35,000. Those extra fans for 1 single game would add 710 to the overall average. When you add Man City, Liverpool, Everton etc in then you see where I’m going. We could average 24-25,000.

As a note, we will NEVER average our capacity. It’s almost impossible, and not other club does it.

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:43 pm

demolish the Bob Lord and replicate a stand the same height but not design as the Longside, we need to stop the rain from the Westerly direction that is drenching the longside lower.

Claretforever · Post by **Claretforever** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:47 pm

Actually, a taller Bob Lord may help the Longside a little. As a single tier I’m sure we could easily have a 5,000 seater cantilever stand there.

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:17 am

I imagine any plan for the Bob Lord would want to retain the current structure ad so much of the club functions are housed in there, hence my suggestion of another tier above which could be built largely while leaving the rest in place, although may see the last few months of the season with the Bob Lord without a roof in order to have the finished article ready for the following season

padihamclaret · Post by **padihamclaret** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:30 am

Personally, I think the club need to hold out and see what happens with safe standing. Would love to see us buy the cricket club out, build a new cfs with safe standing and put a car park, bar, hotel etc on the site of the cricket club (assuming they could find a new home.) On a side note, what are the club doing to generate sales? I've seen other clubs (Wigan, Bolton etc) have adverts in papers, billboards etc trying to drum up sales. Sometimes feels like they take our support for granted

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:56 am

padihamclaret wrote:Personally, I think the club need to hold out and see what happens with safe standing. Would love to see us buy the cricket club out, build a new cfs with safe standing and put a car park, bar, hotel etc on the site of the cricket club (assuming they could find a new home.) On a side note, what are the club doing to generate sales? I've seen other clubs (Wigan, Bolton etc) have adverts in papers, billboards etc trying to drum up sales. Sometimes feels like they take our support for granted

Thing is, a 2nd tier on the Bob Lord gives you the capacity to do a proper job on the CFS. Without it we drop to circa 17k capacity while the CFS is rebuilt

PaintYorkClaretnBlue · Post by **PaintYorkClaretnBlue** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:02 am

Walton wrote:JMU should definitely just be a family stand. It's just weird that there are middle aged people retaining their seats there.

I’m not sure whether you’re taking the p1ss there Walton. Why wouldn’t I want to keep my cracking seats that I’ve had for twenty years? Why is it weird?

They could give me free seats in the JHU and I’d decline.