Team Sky & Wiggins "crossed ethical line"

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:44 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/43280081" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They still don't know what was in the jiffy bag either.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:53 am

I thought it was purely taken due to joint pain - no benefit whatsoever. In fact, if anything, it would make them a bit more tired.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:10 am

Are there still some people who think Wiggins wasn't a cheat?

Lord Beamish · Post by **Lord Beamish** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:55 am

Call me cynical but, as far as I’m concerned, Competition Cyclist is a synonym for Drug-Cheat.

Danieljwaterhouse · Post by **Danieljwaterhouse** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:58 am

thatdberight wrote:Are there still some people who think Wiggins wasn't a cheat?

ME.

If you’d have read the report, it states that Team Sky have NOT cheated. It makes it very clear that TEAM SKY aces within WADA’s required standards at all times.

TEAM GB athletics, swimming, cycling and the winter programme have all been censured for acting unethically in recent years. Skin suits, swim suits and the like were all at one point used and questioned then removed or allowed.

You cannot honestly say that if you could act within the world governing bodies rules to be successful you wouldn’t? If you can answer no to this then you’ve got no chance of success in elite sport.

It happens everyday, warm weather training, sports science, medical intervention (surgery) and recovery. Medical boundaries continue to be pushed. Beckham and Rooney didn’t recover from metatarsal injuries through RICE!!

Just because we don’t understand it doesn’t mean it’s wrong and should be chastised with pitch forks and flaming torches.

Danieljwaterhouse · Post by **Danieljwaterhouse** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:01 am

Lord Beamish wrote:Call me cynical but, as far as I’m concerned, Competition Cyclist is a synonym for Drug-Cheat.

You’d be right but very rarely at PRO level. The testing is so stringent, and the advent of the biological passport has almost made it impossible.

BUT I’ve raced against amateurs who are so obviously doing something to ‘make it’ into Continental teams and open up the sport to them. I’ve seen bans given out as low as CAT 3 Level which is your Sunday football league of cycling....

Lord Beamish · Post by **Lord Beamish** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:05 am

*cough* Lance Armstrong *cough*

Garnerssoap · Post by **Garnerssoap** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:29 am

I doubt the Dutch will let froome dog through at alpe d'huez this summer

Danieljwaterhouse · Post by **Danieljwaterhouse** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:51 am

Lord Beamish wrote:*cough* Lance Armstrong *cough*

Who was caught and rightly stripped. He was just doing something that EVERYONE was doing just better.

Using an athlete from 20years ago isn’t exactly supportive of your arguement

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:57 am

Danieljwaterhouse wrote:ME.

If you’d have read the report, it states that Team Sky have NOT cheated. It makes it very clear that TEAM SKY aces within WADA’s required standards at all times.

TEAM GB athletics, swimming, cycling and the winter programme have all been censured for acting unethically in recent years. Skin suits, swim suits and the like were all at one point used and questioned then removed or allowed.

You cannot honestly say that if you could act within the world governing bodies rules to be successful you wouldn’t? If you can answer no to this then you’ve got no chance of success in elite sport.

It happens everyday, warm weather training, sports science, medical intervention (surgery) and recovery. Medical boundaries continue to be pushed. Beckham and Rooney didn’t recover from metatarsal injuries through RICE!!

Just because we don’t understand it doesn’t mean it’s wrong and should be chastised with pitch forks and flaming torches.

But don't you think it was rather convenient that Wiggins got an asthma attack just before each race and never at times when it didn't matter.

Likewise, how come the medical team didn't know what was in the jiffy bag? Surely every piece of medicine has yo be accounted for?

He's a cheat in my opinion and just because he's never been caught means nothing. Lance Armstrong never was.

SirAlec · Post by **SirAlec** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:05 am

Just because he’s never been caught cheating means nothing???

I think you’ll find that means he’s not a cheat.

Innocent until proven guilty, what you ‘feel’ isn’t evidence of cheating. I hope you never get called up for jury duty lmao

Lord Beamish · Post by **Lord Beamish** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:13 am

Danieljwaterhouse wrote:Who was caught and rightly stripped. He was just doing something that EVERYONE was doing just better.

Using an athlete from 20years ago isn’t exactly supportive of your arguement

He got away with it for years. All whilst posing as a poster boy for Drug-Free competition. He was rightly stripped of his medals, sure. But only after years of Cheating and getting away with it.
This whole sorry episode casts a long shadow over the current batch of competitors. Who knows what they are getting away with now, only for it to be discovered at some time in the future that it was all obtained by Drugs.
That’s why Lance Armstrong is still a relevant argument now. It is, rightly or wrongly, a tainted Sport.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:17 am

You can look across several sports and see examples of sports people using products to give them an advantage for as long as the rules 'allow' it.

Maria Sharapova being one example, was at it for years until the rules were adjusted.

ten bellies · Post by **ten bellies** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:25 am

It amuses me that MP's, of all people, are questioning the ethics of athletes. The pursuit of victory in any athletic discipline at elite level requires the competitors to push everything to the limit within the laws. Our nation psyche is to lose but play in the right way. We don't like winners.

SalisburyClaret · Post by **SalisburyClaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:25 am

Cycling- Second to Athletics as the most drug dependent sport - and it’s inspired lots of middle aged men to put on Lycra and cause a danger on the roads. Should be banned

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:30 am

I'd imagine every pro sport sees widespread use of 'drugs' every day. As above, it's all about pushing the boundaries and grey areas. It's unlikely Wiggins was the only one doing it, and even then it's within the rules.

Look up some of the stuff about Guardiola's teams, (not KRBFC though, he'll go nuts). The thing is, just eating a healthy balanced diet isn't going to work if all the other guys are taking supplements which take them right to the edge of what's legal. I guess in cycling it's more of an issue as the cardio vascular stuff is such a massive part of being the best.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:33 am

I've seen lots of comments on social media about City players going off for 'treatments' in Spain etc.

SalisburyClaret · Post by **SalisburyClaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:34 am

It’s amazing how many sportsmen have asthma- whenever a drug cheat is found out it seems it was always something they were taking to treat their asthma

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:35 am

SalisburyClaret wrote:Cycling- Second to Athletics as the most drug dependent sport - and it’s inspired lots of middle aged men to put on Lycra and cause a danger on the roads. Should be banned

Cycling should be banned or middle aged men in Lycra?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:39 am

I'm a middle aged cyclist and yes, lycra on men who then look like potatoes in a wet suit should be banned.

Course, I'm a massive fan of car drivers getting their head around the idea that cyclist have just as much right to be on the road as they do.

SalisburyClaret · Post by **SalisburyClaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:40 am

Sidney1st wrote:Cycling should be banned or middle aged men in Lycra?

Can we do both Sidney? With the exception that Cycling is ok if it involves getting from A to B but not if it involves exercise at other people’s expense

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:42 am

involves exercise at other people’s expense

I've heard of many anti-cycling comments Salisbury, but thats a new one on me.

How on earth can anyone "exercise at other people's expense"?

Espia · Post by **Espia** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:43 am

They (Sky, Brailsford, Wiggins, et al) may have cheated as it is illegal to use the cortisone asthma treatment without a TUE and it seems we'll never really know what was in the Jiffy bag. But we're not idiots. It doesn't take months and months of question dodging and denials to then just simply say it was a "decongestant". A decongestant that was easily obtainable over the counter in the particular country it was flown to. I'm afraid once you start basking in the limelight of your success and boasting of how upstanding, ethical and totally honest you are, whilst secretly hiding the truth and the real story, then you lose both respect and credibility. Brailsford should resign; Sky should withdraw funding. Get it over with and move on with a new structure and organisation with better checks and balancing.

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:44 am

This stinks to high heaven , they might avoid punitive measures , but anyone reading the available info can or should see it is thoroughly wrong.

Sport has become so tarnished by this as to make any achievement virtually worthless.

SalisburyClaret · Post by **SalisburyClaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:45 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I've heard of many anti-cycling comments Salisbury, but thats a new one on me.

How on earth can anyone "exercise at other people's expense"?

Simply by slowing down other people’s journeys and increasing the likelihood of road accidents just so they can exercise.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:47 am

Yeah, I thought it would be something as selfish and as self centred as that.

Try it, might do you some good.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:49 am

SalisburyClaret wrote:Simply by slowing down other people’s journeys and increasing the likelihood of road accidents just so they can exercise.

Ha if you have an accident over taking a cyclist then the driver needs to look at their own driving ability first and foremost.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:54 am

SalisburyClaret wrote:Cycling- Second to Athletics as the most drug dependent sport - and it’s inspired lots of middle aged men to put on Lycra and cause a danger on the roads. Should be banned

Why are they wearing lycra whilst driving?

Funkydrummer · Post by **Funkydrummer** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:02 am

"Course, I'm a massive fan of car drivers getting their head around the idea that cyclist have just as much right to be on the road as they do."

Since when did they have to pay road tax and take out insurance ?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:07 am

Funkydrummer wrote:"Course, I'm a massive fan of car drivers getting their head around the idea that cyclist have just as much right to be on the road as they do."

Since when did they have to pay road tax and take out insurance ?

Road tax doesn’t exist. It’s car tax, a tax on cars and other vehicles, not a tax on roads or a fee to use them.

Should cyclists have compulsory insurance?

No. Many cyclists do already have insurance, as they are either members of the CTC, or are covered under their motoring or household insurance. However, in most collisions involving a cyclist and another road vehicle it is the cyclist who comes off worst. It is therefore up to them to decide whether they should take out insurance, not the state. The introduction of a Proportionate Liability law would however provide a measure of protection for cyclists, as the driver of the heavier vehicle would automatically be assumed to be liable (which is not the same as culpable) Note also that this would mean that a cyclists would automatically be assumed to be liable if they collided with a pedestrian, which would deter them from riding dangerously on pavements.

Does that answer everything for you?

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:07 am

Funkydrummer wrote:"Course, I'm a massive fan of car drivers getting their head around the idea that cyclist have just as much right to be on the road as they do."

Since when did they have to pay road tax and take out insurance ?

If you're still paying road tax then you should probably stop, it was abolished 80 years ago.

As Churchill said "Entertainments may be taxed; public houses may be taxed… and the yield devoted to the general revenue. But motorists are to be privileged for all time to have the tax on motors devoted to roads? This is an outrage upon… common sense."

Hendrickxz · Post by **Hendrickxz** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:08 am

The former team doctor mentioned in the story is local to East Lancashire. He worked with BFS at Rovers. No inference there, just fact.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:11 am

Since when did they have to pay road tax and take out insurance ?

I have a car as well, and my bike isn't maintained to the level where that I only bother with a yearly service.

Salisbury levels of argument there, which isn't good!

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:18 am

Being serious about this for sec, its not something that is going to go away, but the achievements of British Cycling have enthused a new generation of cyclists and got millions more on to bikes.

Which all helps the nations fitness, and that helps everyone.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:18 am

In terms of doping, football is going to be the one that gets found out at some point. Lots of rumours that a large number of the blood bags in the Operación Puerto were related to footballers but various court rulings have said that they won't be disclosed.

The testing regime is minimal compared to other sports like cycling and athletics and I suspect that they will get found out eventually.

SalisburyClaret · Post by **SalisburyClaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:20 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I have a car as well, and my bike isn't maintained to the level where that I only bother with a yearly service.

Salisbury levels of argument there, which isn't good!

Lancaster, please rub both your brain cells together.

If you want to indulge your cycling hobby - get to a velodrome or cycleway or bridleway open to all traffic. If you’re exercising on a busy road then even the dumbest Lycra clad Wiggins fan must realise it's dangerous for both them and others

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:31 am

It's only dangerous if people don't follow the rules.

Usually it's the average impatient car driver who doesn't know the rules and causes issues.

In cities it's 50/50 as to who's fault it is.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:39 am

What are you on about?

Do you want to borrow one of my brain cells to double your mental capacity?

The only reason you are ****** at cyclists is that they look better than you, are fitter than you and cheerfully zoom past loads of stationary cars as they sit in a traffic jam that is absolutely nothing to do with cyclists. The cars you clearly love are the problem.

But its not like this country to blame other things rather than the real reason is it?

SalisburyClaret · Post by **SalisburyClaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:42 am

THete's fault on both sides I agree - and to be fair there's a lot more bad drivers than bad cyclists.

I give cyclists a wide berth as I always found it terrifying when a driver would go by really close but there's no need for cyclists who deliberately go 3 or 4 abreast and why is it now impossible for bikes to have a bell fitted.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:44 am

There is a bell fitted when sold as new.

Some bikes come with a second bell (end) though.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:47 am

Much better post

Yes, I agree they should all have bells (I have one)

Regarding the riding three or four abreast is a difficult one. I agree with what you say but you've nailed why they do it in your post. There are only so many near misses you can have on a bike before you think "Sod this, if they are going to overtake when its not safe, then we are going to cycle so we are safe and can't be overtaken".

I cycle with my family (inc 9 and 10 year old) and the driving by a minority (sadly a bit minority) is absolutely terrible. You see car drivers give horses the widest possible berth and slow down to a crawl, and then you see them basically give cyclists no room at all.

Believe it or not, I'm one of those cyclists who tries to explain to car drivers how dangerous there driving is calmly when we catch up to them at traffic lights and its safe to say that the majority are very apologetic but I doubt it stops them doing it!

SalisburyClaret · Post by **SalisburyClaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:49 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:What are you on about?

Do you want to borrow one of my brain cells to double your mental capacity?

The only reason you are ****** at cyclists is that they look better than you, are fitter than you and cheerfully zoom past loads of stationary cars as they sit in a traffic jam that is absolutely nothing to do with cyclists. The cars you clearly love are the problem.

But its not like this country to blame other things rather than the real reason is it?

Lancaster - I'm sure you're very proud of how you look in your Lycra and how drinking in all those car fumes has made you so healthy and fit. It's even given you powers to see how people other people look despite not having met them. You know what others love too.

You clearly need help from a qualified medical practioner, so I'll not indulge you further as it may cause more damage to your limited mental faculties

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:53 am

Hmmm

back to the your usual posting standards (on this thread, nothing wrong with them normally)

I've no idea what a cyclist has done to you to deserve this, but if it means you give them a bit more room then abuse away!

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:00 am

I agree with Lancaster, when I’m up in the hills on my bike it feels like a game of Russian Roulette at times.

There are of course cyclists riding dangerously too, two or three abreast up a hill at 1 mph when a car coming around a corner under the speed limit has to slam on to avoid wiping them all out like skittles, due to another car coming the other way at the time.

On the Sky issue, the bit I am appalled by isn’t the pushing of the rules to the limit, it is the cheek Brailsford and others have shown over the years in portraying themselves as “different”, morally pure etc. If only we knew that the way to win the Tour was to train a bunch of asthmatics, we’d have done it earlier.

brigante · Post by **brigante** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:08 am

Given how much I run out of breath climbing the stairs after a couple of joints I fail to see how drugs can improve cycling performance.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:12 am

You are doing it wrong if you have to climb them after a couple of joints.

You should be at the bottom, going "wow man, how ace are stairs?"

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:20 am

Why is it so many athletes, cyclists, tennis players etc have asthma ?
It’s a bit strange that the percentage of this group of people who have asthma is much much higher than the percentage of people who have it in the rest of society.
Sharapova perfect example - her excuse was pathetic and quite rightly she got a ban. She should have got a life ban as she has made tens of millions of pounds from very little natural talent but surrounding herself with very talented cheating Russian doctors all her career.

I don’t know whether Wiggins is guilty or not - i’ve always liked him but with the fame and fortune on offer in cycling it’s no surprise the sport has been rife with drugs.

I struggle to believe how Team Sky can compete (let alone dominate like they have) against all the other teams without cheating themselves. Just because we think Wiggins is a bit cool with his Mod look and Fred Perrys does not mean that he has taken the same path of cheating as most of his competitors. For years the doctors have been trying to push the boundaries between what’s legal and illegal.

Herts Clarets · Post by **Herts Clarets** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:28 pm

I have often wondered how so many of the elite cyclist and athletes seem suffer from asthma. Particularly suffer when it comes to competition time. I am guessing the answer is that they don't.

One thing that gets my goat with cyclists - around where I live, there are quite a number of cycle paths that run alongside roads. Usually roads with a 60mph speed limit, lines of sight obscured by foliage etc. Now most of your average cyclists use these and are away from the dangers of traffic. Good move on their behalf. But then you get the Wiggins Wannabees. As ever dressed up like a Tour de France competitor causing danger to themselves and other road users by refusing to use the cycle paths.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:32 pm

I use cycle paths whenever I can.

I think the ones you are talking about are the ones who can do 200+ miles a day in their bikes.

Trust me, thats not the majority of us!

deanothedino · Post by **deanothedino** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:02 pm

Herts Clarets wrote:I have often wondered how so many of the elite cyclist and athletes seem suffer from asthma. Particularly suffer when it comes to competition time. I am guessing the answer is that they don't.

One thing that gets my goat with cyclists - around where I live, there are quite a number of cycle paths that run alongside roads. Usually roads with a 60mph speed limit, lines of sight obscured by foliage etc. Now most of your average cyclists use these and are away from the dangers of traffic. Good move on their behalf. But then you get the Wiggins Wannabees. As ever dressed up like a Tour de France competitor causing danger to themselves and other road users by refusing to use the cycle paths.

Assuming, from your username, you live in Hertfordshire then I suspect it is because they are one of: a poor surface that risks punctures, full of road furniture (signs for the road etc), give way to every minor road they cross thus slower than the main road, or mixed use pedestrian/cycles which are a death trap. I know a few in Stevenage definitely fit the last point with school children wandering all over the bike half of the path.

Very few cycle paths in this country are fit for anything other than idle cycling at around 10mph, whereas plenty of cyclists will be looking to do 20+ mph on the flat. Plenty aren't even fit for road bikes considering the amount of debris they are filled with.

On asthma, some athletes have exercise-induced asthma. Wiggins, however, seemed to only need treatment before big races he hoped to win. That is known in the medical community as performance-inducing asthma.