Why the need to kick those that are down?

superdimitri · Post by **superdimitri** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:01 pm

Always made me wonder why there's so much aggression in football and why it's almost a given to taunt and mock the opposition?

What happened to the days where people had respect for their counterparts?

There are sometimes signs of it, our fans clapping Butland at Turf Moor and on Saturday, even West Ham fans applauding our players off the pitch.

But the goading that goes on is horrible. Take Joe Hart for example, a player Burnley fans shouldn't really have anything against. A player who represented England many times and a guy who is obviously devoid of any confidence is met by constant jeers and chants mocking him.

And it's not just an exception either. I remember our fans mocking Reading supporters after they found Brighton pipped them to a playoff spot in recent years.

I get the jeering in some cases and a lot of it people say is banter, such as the Booing of Rooney at Turf Moor but at least there is some kind of reason behind it...ex man utd, poor reputation off the pitch.

But why do people feel the need to kick others when they are down?

spadesclaret · Post by **spadesclaret** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:08 pm

superdimitri wrote:Always made me wonder why there's so much aggression in football and why it's almost a given to taunt and mock the opposition?

What happened to the days where people had respect for their counterparts?

There are sometimes signs of it, our fans clapping Butland at Turf Moor and on Saturday, even West Ham fans applauding our players off the pitch.

But the goading that goes on is horrible. Take Joe Hart for example, a player Burnley fans shouldn't really have anything against. A player who represented England many times and a guy who is obviously devoid of any confidence is met by constant jeers and chants mocking him.

And it's not just an exception either. I remember our fans mocking Reading supporters after they found Brighton pipped them to a playoff spot in recent years.

I get the jeering in some cases and a lot of it people say is banter, such as the Booing of Rooney at Turf Moor but at least there is some kind of reason behind it...ex man utd, poor reputation off the pitch.

But why do people feel the need to kick others when they are down?

It's strange, isn't it? We always used to be known as a nation on the side of the underdog.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:19 pm

Because for fans ( and most players too ) club comes way before country.
If anything can gain us 1% advantage I'm all for it.

As for mocking players ( home nations or otherwise ) they give as good as they get when diving, celebrating or gauding fans walking off the pitch.

For 90 minutes I want the opposition players, staff and fans to feel under pressure, upset, frustrated etc.
When the final whistle blows, then the respect can be shown, you can feel upset for them, have discussions/ debatrs, and everyones life moves on and cintinues as normal until the next game.

Just like Saturday.

Fretters · Post by **Fretters** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:20 pm

Crowd mentality, I'd say. If a Burnley fan was in a pub with a Reading fan when Brighton pipped them, he probably wouldn't have pointed at him and gone "aaahahahaha!" in his face. He'd have said, "sorry mate" and bought him a pint (maybe). Get him in a crowd of Burnley fans at a stadium and his behaviour would be totally the opposite.

Football fans are generally just horrible to each other

randomclaret2 · Post by **randomclaret2** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:27 pm

Schadenfreude

Herts Clarets · Post by **Herts Clarets** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:34 pm

MACCA wrote:Because for fans ( and most players too ) club comes way before country.
If anything can gain us 1% advantage I'm all for it.

As for mocking players ( home nations or otherwise ) they give as good as they get when diving, celebrating or gauding fans walking off the pitch.

For 90 minutes I want the opposition players, staff and fans to feel under pressure, upset, frustrated etc.
When the final whistle blows, then the respect can be shown, you can feel upset for them, have discussions/ debatrs, and everyones life moves on and cintinues as normal until the next game.

Just like Saturday.

Saturday to Joe Hart "England's Number 4". Did that unsettle him? I don't know, but I do know he spilled a shot from JBG that resulted in our third goal.

"England's Number 6"

LeadBelly · Post by **LeadBelly** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:52 pm

"What happened to the days where people had respect for their counterparts?"

That must've been before my time. I can remember Clarets' fans goading Blackburn fans at TM with "polio" chants when there was a bad outbreak of that disease in Blackburn area in the mid 60s.

Peppered Steak Pie · Post by **Peppered Steak Pie** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:05 pm

superdimitri wrote:Always made me wonder why there's so much aggression in football and why it's almost a given to taunt and mock the opposition?

What happened to the days where people had respect for their counterparts?

There are sometimes signs of it, our fans clapping Butland at Turf Moor and on Saturday, even West Ham fans applauding our players off the pitch.

But the goading that goes on is horrible. Take Joe Hart for example, a player Burnley fans shouldn't really have anything against. A player who represented England many times and a guy who is obviously devoid of any confidence is met by constant jeers and chants mocking him.

And it's not just an exception either. I remember our fans mocking Reading supporters after they found Brighton pipped them to a playoff spot in recent years.

I get the jeering in some cases and a lot of it people say is banter, such as the Booing of Rooney at Turf Moor but at least there is some kind of reason behind it...ex man utd, poor reputation off the pitch.

The most annoying thing as soon as we score at home, a very short celebration of our goal followed by attention turned to the away fans with chants of “who are ya”. Certainly in the CFS anyway
Who gives a toss who they are. Have we forgotten who we are playing already?
Concentrate on celebrating the efforts and success of our own team. So cringeworthy and predictable

Sorry that’s my rant over

But why do people feel the need to kick others when they are down?

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:12 pm

LeadBelly wrote:"What happened to the days where people had respect for their counterparts?"

That must've been before my time. I can remember Clarets' fans goading Blackburn fans at TM with "polio" chants when there was a bad outbreak of that disease in Blackburn area in the mid 60s.

I don't remember them chants but I do remember they were that wound up they played CH Mike England at CF, he scored twice and they mullered us 4-1. Resulting in the war at Ewood in the return.

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:16 pm

I have no objections to most stuff coming from the stands, verbally. No racism or religion obviously but find the abuse taken by Eddie Jones, last weekend, and Scott Sinclair, this, abhorrent. During the action it's free shooting. Away from the game they are just blokes going about their life.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:18 pm

That Reading game with the pitch invasion was brilliant comedy though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i49-WpW1Ey0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVJt4m0PiW4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They deserved every bit of mocking they got for that one.

Spike · Post by **Spike** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:26 pm

joe Hart held himself up for ridicule when he decided to accept the money from advertisers including Head and shoulders

timshorts · Post by **timshorts** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:38 pm

What goes around comes around.

How many times have those Sunderland fans waving "Let's all laugh at Newcastle" printed leaflets been made to have their gloating rammed down their throat?

I don't like west ham at all. I always had them ranked 91 or 92 in my like list, but I have some sympathy for those that have supported them properly over the years and have been sold down the Thames by their porntroll owners. Still hope they go down, though.

superdimitri · Post by **superdimitri** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:49 pm

Fair points but most of you are alluding to rivalries where pride is at stake outside of the game, US and Rovers, Sunderland and Newcastle etc. This is West Ham, yes not the "nicest" of clubs or the most likeable but they aren't rolling in the success and favoritism that the likes of Chelsea and Arsenal have been, they may have recently done well against us but we have actually beaten them more times in the league than they beat us! Don't get it at all when there really isn't any motive towards it apart from what appears to be raw hatred.

As for being in an advertisement plenty of other players like that too, just look at all the liverpool team, Lallana for example. Never gets any abuse from our fans, probably because he's not on a downward spiral.

I doubt any of the abuse effects players performances, Hart would have spilled the shot anyway. If anything the booing and jeering probably leads some players to do better.

Don't understand the who are ya chants either, its like people are asking for the other team the score. My attention after we score is spent on getting another or holding out for the rest of the game, the last thing I want to do is look a right fool chanting toward opposing fans before the game is over.

Btw the days I was referring to are before everyone's time I expect, anything onward from the 50s and 60s It doesn't surprise me the "jestering" started and you don't even have to mention the 70s and 80s, but what about the time before that?

Erasmus · Post by **Erasmus** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:57 pm

I agree with Dimitri, I feel sorry for the opposition's supporters if we have won. I particularly remember after we beat Sheffield United at Wembley sitting on the Tube and seeing a dad in his Sheffield United shirt with a little boy of about eight. They looked so miserable, how could you not feel sorry for them? All of us supporters are pretty much the same so shouldn't we sympathise with each other?

My son also told me that when he went to watch a Test Match at Old Trafford, him and his friend were sitting next to two older blokes. They were all getting on fine, talking and joking, until they found out my son's friend was a Rovers supporter. They were from Burnley and after that completely blanked them with a silent hostility. Isn't that really a bit petty minded?

boiledclaret · Post by **boiledclaret** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:03 pm

Never had a problem with Reading. I used to work in Berkshire, their fan's seemed decent enough, on the whole.

But they deserved all they got with the pitch invasion that day. They were the one's who ran on, all fired up, for some odd reason. Burnley fans simply watched them in bemusement, until they realized they'd had a misunderstanding with the scores.

Quite embarrassing but funny.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:18 pm

Love the bitchy comment from the Leeds fan re Chris Wood.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:29 pm

psychological warfare

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:34 pm

superdimitri wrote:Always made me wonder why there's so much aggression in football and why it's almost a given to taunt and mock the opposition?

What happened to the days where people had respect for their counterparts?

There are sometimes signs of it, our fans clapping Butland at Turf Moor and on Saturday, even West Ham fans applauding our players off the pitch.

But the goading that goes on is horrible. Take Joe Hart for example, a player Burnley fans shouldn't really have anything against. A player who represented England many times and a guy who is obviously devoid of any confidence is met by constant jeers and chants mocking him.

And it's not just an exception either. I remember our fans mocking Reading supporters after they found Brighton pipped them to a playoff spot in recent years.

I get the jeering in some cases and a lot of it people say is banter, such as the Booing of Rooney at Turf Moor but at least there is some kind of reason behind it...ex man utd, poor reputation off the pitch.

But why do people feel the need to kick others when they are down?

So, what should we have done on Saturday? Tried to push Hart towards a better performance to Burnley's detriment? Feigned polite disinterest in his situation?

'Abuse' of the player (within reason) that sticks to footballing issues can never be wrong. Frankly he's too far away to hear a reasoned argument that he's been a much less capable keeper than his reputation and number of caps suggest and that we don't understand why he, and not the chap at the far end, is a shoo-in for the next England squad.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:38 pm

There's also the possibility that us chanting England's number 4 to Hart and England's number 1 to Pope will spur our GK on, especially when Pope put in the performance he did whilst Hart hardly covered himself in glory.

It may not, but there's no harm in it.

Lord Beamish · Post by **Lord Beamish** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:38 pm

I genuinely felt sorry for for Hart after that third goal on Saturday. I thought it was bad luck, rather than poor judgement. The ball bounced just where ‘Keepers don’t like it, and he almost made the recovery as Wood honed in. A split second earlier and he’d have blocked the rebound.
The look on his face told a miserable tale. He knows he has a growing poor reputation for having a mistake in him. He looked so crestfallen that I couldn’t bring myself to mock.

TomtheClaret · Post by **TomtheClaret** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:41 pm

I always feel banter is banter. I was at the Everton game in Cfs. Stayed over At Queen Vic. A Everton fan in there was shouting his gob off that a song about Jon Venerbles had triggered the reaction at the end. I never heard it?
Think sometimes there is a very fine line between banter, **** taking and just verbal abusive.
I think my line is would you find it accptable outside football ground.. No?
Then not in it either. By that I mean racism, sexism, homphobia etc.

Stalbansclaret · Post by **Stalbansclaret** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:23 pm

Isn't this thread a bit,err, snowflake ?
I mean it's football and the verbal "abuse" of opposing players and fans is part of what makes it a magnificent release from the strictures of "real life" isn't it ? Next we'll be encouraged not to boo the villains in the Christmas panto.
I've played football most of my adult life and, nowadays, regularly get ageist "abuse" from the opposition during a game. It's funny tbh and makes it all the sweeter if we win or, miraculously, I score.
Before someone pounces I'm obviously not countenancing racist or other viler forms of abuse but a good bit of schadenfreude or p*** taking ? I mean, come on ! I basically want 91 other clubs to fail miserably so take pleasure when things go wrong for them. A lot of humour goes out of football too if we all start getting overly-sensitive.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:33 pm

I think people take football far too seriously.
I find some on the so-called banter an embarrassment TBH

moaninclaret · Post by **moaninclaret** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:28 pm

If we were in the same situation as west ham does anyone think we wouldnt get the same sort of reaction from opposing fans? i think not, we have had our fair share abuse to our players and fans alike, sadly its a part of football and always will be. Tonights game could be interesting should Stoke not put in a performance, i wonder how their fans will react?!!!!!

superdimitri · Post by **superdimitri** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:16 pm

What should we have done? Nothing. I don't think the chants Hart was getting contributed at all to the result. If anything it just encourages players to do better so they can silence the fans. Not only is it embarrassing but it's also plain stupid.

It's not a competition of fans you know. Just because West Ham fans might do that to our players doesn't mean they have an advantage if we don't to theirs.

We are having the season of a lifetime yet we can't just be class and embrace it, instead we have to have fun kicking those who are more unfortunate than us. Of course no one likes it when the opposition taunt you the whole game but who cares? The attention is always set at goading them after if we score and in a game that trades score lines so much it can happen almost limitlessly. At the Turf it's embarrassing to see the CFS just turn to the away fans and cheer at them instead of our team when we score.

I don't call it banter at all, you only need to look at peoples faces when they do it to see how much aggression is behind it.Yes a few start the chant and it becomes a collective but I just find it sad personally.

yTib · Post by **yTib** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:19 pm

human nature.

i saw a piece on channel 4 news the other day where a bloke withdrawing money from a cashpoint delivered an unprovoked verbal attack on a homeless bloke who was clearly frozen stiff.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:19 pm

Anyone else hoping they don't sit near superdimitri at games?

Bin Ont Turf · Post by **Bin Ont Turf** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:12 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Anyone else hoping they don't sit near superdimitri at games?

He can't get be getting to many if he's asking the question that he has done.

superdimitri · Post by **superdimitri** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:22 pm

Priceless responses as usual, thanks guys.

Bin Ont Turf · Post by **Bin Ont Turf** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:41 pm

superdimitri wrote:Priceless responses as usual, thanks guys.

It's priceless that you can't grasp that football is entertainment and sometimes a pantomime regarding supporters.

Erasmus further up goes on about a Sheff Utd father and child being miserable after the Play Off game. It would take a special type of bellend to go up to them after the match and say 'ha ha, you're staying down and we're going up'.

If you just have the right mental capacity to differentiate between football matches and real life, then there's no need for the question.

superdimitri · Post by **superdimitri** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:17 am

I think this is the problem, unfortunately. Oh well.

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:36 am

Sidney1st wrote:There's also the possibility that us chanting England's number 4 to Hart and England's number 1 to Pope will spur our GK on, especially when Pope put in the performance he did whilst Hart hardly covered himself in glory.

It may not, but there's no harm in it.

Nothing new there..it was chanted at rob green when we played west ham at upton park under coyle we had conceded 5 goals he put his hand up to let us know...the whole away end as one chanted "England's number five" that was funny! I bet he hasn't forgot.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:46 am

If superdimitri feels like this about the behaviour of fans they must be distraught at the sight of players giving it back.

Adebayor running the length of the Etihad to slide to his knees after he scored.
Neville and Liverpool.

Wasn't it Lonergan waving his fingers around at Burnley fans when he was at Preston?
Possibly that game when Iwelumo rolled back the years and that woman was spotted ripping her programme up in the away section of CFS?

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:52 am

At the game on Saturday there was a baying mob of west ham fans continually bating.more so when Barnes perfectly good goal was disallowed I took great delight in returning the abuse when we had a goal fest....grown men bulging eyes and frothing.hey ho!

starting_11 · Post by **starting_11** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:00 am

Mindful of my language I'll try to mellow it but I do have to ask if we have infact become a nation of bitch boy pissy *****?

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:07 am

starting_11 wrote:Mindful of my language I'll try to mellow it but I do have to ask if we have infact become a nation of bitch boy pissy *****?

I'm usually quite a timid Timothy shy and retiring but sometimes I just love letting my hair down and Saturday was long overdue.F...Em!

superdimitri · Post by **superdimitri** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:09 am

Yeah it makes it worth it, love to get one over those horrid west ham fans! Grown men with balls of steel playing children's games.

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:12 am

superdimitri wrote:Yeah it makes it worth it, love to get one over those horrid west ham fans! Grown men with balls of steel playing children's games.

Don't lose the child in you it's priceless! Trust me.

starting_11 · Post by **starting_11** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:22 am

tim_noone wrote:I'm usually quite a timid Timothy shy and retiring but sometimes I just love letting my hair down and Saturday was long overdue.F...Em!

Showing any sign of weakness, forgiveness or sympathy to an opposition is tantamount... no it isn't, its FLAT OUT treachery.

The "fans" should be dealt with accordingly.

Bfcboyo · Post by **Bfcboyo** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:09 am

Unfortunately a chunk of society especially who attend the footy are braindead half wits with no manners.
The types who expel extreme profanities around the ears of infants. Traditionally a working class mans game from a time when the working class were brought up with respect and manners and well a bit of class. And rival supporters stood together as fans of football with any sillyness met with a lump of wood over the head from a local bobby.

Way too many jeremy kyle loving , facebook doting, benifit cheating dossers in attendance for my liking now . Ban them all!

Bfcboyo · Post by **Bfcboyo** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:16 am

starting_11 wrote:Mindful of my language I'll try to mellow it but I do have to ask if we have infact become a nation of bitch boy pissy *****?

A nation that lost its principle , honour and manners. No longer great and just a bunch of spoilt brats with no respect. Not enough cane ,conscription, war and destitute times to provide these souless morons with back bone and respect required to have dignity , humbleness and in fact call themselves MEN.

Dom · Post by **Dom** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:54 am

Some cheek from superdimitri, he's the first one to put the boot into our youth system and yet here he is moaning that we give stick to players that have already made it.

I've no issue with giving opposition players stick as long as it's not racist, homophobic etc.

Lord Beamish · Post by **Lord Beamish** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:58 am

Bfcboyo wrote:A nation that lost its principle , honour and manners. No longer great and just a bunch of spoilt brats with no respect. Not enough cane ,conscription, war and destitute times to provide these souless morons with back bone and respect required to have dignity , humbleness and in fact call themselves MEN.

Nice to see that Colonel Blimp is still alive and well.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:03 am

Surely the stick Hart got is because we have a keeper challenging him in the England stakes?

Regarding the opposition fans, I'm as bad as anyone in the ground, but as soon as I'm out of the ground that is match over.

I made an exception for laughing at the Middlesborough fan crying his eyes out and shouting "you lucky bastards" at us by the cricket pitch after our 1-1 draw though!

superdimitri · Post by **superdimitri** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:24 am

Dom wrote:Some cheek from superdimitri, he's the first one to put the boot into our youth system and yet here he is moaning that we give stick to players that have already made it.

I've no issue with giving opposition players stick as long as it's not racist, homophobic etc.

Well I am truly sorry and I will bear in mind your messageboard rules before posting in the future.

It seems some people seem to view a football match as a place where they can do and please as they wish. I'm not sure why even racist and homophobic even came in to it, I never mentioned that at all.

Funny how a few people seem to have gotten that out of their rabbit hat ey.

For the record, this is a discussion board. If someone holds an opinion or wants to discuss it doesn't mean they aren't supporting the team, there is a very archaic and frankly out-of-date view held by a lot of people on here that seem to wish that there shouldn't be a difference in opinion or a messageboard at all. I wonder really if they truly grasp the concept of discussion or even have membership of any other online discussion board at all.

It's a shame really because its prevalent not just toward me, but others too, who frankly offer a much better contribution than those who like to jab and stab when someone holds a different opinion from them.

Yes I am against the youth system and I think anyone who has seen the recent underdevelopment would agree it hasn't exactly yielded any decent results in recent years. Does that make my postings against the forum rules? Should there be a rule in place here that no-one should be able to be one bit critical toward any part of the club or even wish it would improve?

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:45 am

superdimitri wrote:Yes I am against the youth system and I think anyone who has seen the recent underdevelopment would agree it hasn't exactly yielded any decent results in recent years.

That's because you seem to have no understanding of what's happened and what's now happening within our academy.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:06 am

Complains about fans kicking others when they're down but does the same themselves to the club....

superdimitri · Post by **superdimitri** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:11 am

ClaretTony wrote:That's because you seem to have no understanding of what's happened and what's now happening within our academy.

I have every understanding of it and I hope it does yield good results, just very sceptical it can nowadays when football is very different than it was in the 60's/70s when we had good youngsters. I know you are an avid follower of the youth team and I have been to a fair few youth and development squad games myself.

It's easy to assume because you don't agree with me that I have no understanding, similarly I guess to how people think I don't go to games.

Its wildly off topic but I hope if we do intend to have better youth development that we don't half ass it and try to get up to top academy status asap. There are plenty of teams with better youth set ups than us who aren't yielding good enough youngsters.

Dom · Post by **Dom** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:13 am

Not sure which part of superdimitri's post to respond to.
I mentioned racism, homophobia etc as they go beyond "stick". Anything outwith the truly offensive is fair game for me. Football is more entertaining for it and if puts opposition players off then even better.

But I find it amusing that you're so offended by "kicking those that are down" yet will kick those who've not even got up yet. That's all, you're free to hold your own opinions but then I'm free to point out the hypocrisy that you evidently show. So much for "respect". If I was a Burnley youth footballer and I read some of the things you've said about them and their development I'd find it more insulting than giving Joe Hart the "Englands Number 4" chant.