English rugby and fee-paying schools

halfmanhalfbiscuit · Post by **halfmanhalfbiscuit** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:18 pm

Does anyone please have any information about the current England squad and the amount of players from fee-paying schools?

I can only find the information for the 2015 World Cup squad.

Thank you.

Caballo · Post by **Caballo** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:49 pm

Or conversely, why do so few state schools play rugby?

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:50 pm

Not in Yorkshire they don't.

dpinsussex · Post by **dpinsussex** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:53 pm

My kids are at state school and play rugby and football

halfmanhalfbiscuit · Post by **halfmanhalfbiscuit** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:56 pm

dpinsussex wrote:My kids are at state school and play rugby and football

Am I correct in assuming you're in Sussex?

SammyBoy · Post by **SammyBoy** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:59 pm

I went to a state school and can literally count on one hand the amount of times we attempted Rugby in the 5 years I was there, and even some of those lessons just transitioned into football because people clearly weren't into it.

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:08 pm

In West Yorkshire lots of schools play league. In the East Midlands lots play union.Re private schools perhaps they play rugby because they are crap at football ?

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:11 pm

Does it matter ?

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:17 pm

I've just done a bit of digging, and out of the starting XV tomorrow, 7 were educated from the age of 11 at Independent schools, 4 at State schools and the other 4 started at State secondary schools at 11, but then moved to Independent schools on " Rugby " scholarships, either by way of bursaries from the schools or arranged by professional Clubs.

The " Rugby " scholarship arrangement is nothing new, both Welsh legends Gareth Edwards and JPR Williams won scholarships to Millfield School in thed mid 1960's. Football is not averse to this, with both Michael Keane and his brother Will attending St Bede's College in South Manchester ( Independent ) with assistance from Manchester United.

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:23 pm

bfcjg wrote:In West Yorkshire lots of schools play league. In the East Midlands lots play union.Re private schools perhaps they play rugby because they are crap at football ?

Lots of Schools rugby down in the West Country too..

Before QEGS Blackburn returned to the State Sector in 2014, it was the most successfull ever School in the Independent Schools FA Cup, with 3 wins between 1992 - 2005. They also won the Cup in it's previous format in 1980 and were runners-up in 1982... below is a list of ex Independent School pupils currently playing professionally, including our current " Custodian " ....

http://www.isfa.org.uk/about/28-about/c ... al-players

UTC !!

Herts Clarets · Post by **Herts Clarets** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:28 pm

I think we played rugby twice in the 5 years at school. First time no one had a clue what they were doing. Second time it degenerated into a cross between British Bulldog and Rollerball.

At least when it kicked off during football most of us knew what we were supposed to be doing. To this day I neither understand nor like rugby.

dpinsussex · Post by **dpinsussex** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:29 pm

halfmanhalfbiscuit wrote:Am I correct in assuming you're in Sussex?

Never assume makes a complete ass out of u. Certainly not me on this occasion
Hampshire / berkshire border

halfmanhalfbiscuit · Post by **halfmanhalfbiscuit** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:32 pm

Blackrod wrote:Does it matter ?

I'm just looking at the disparity between public and state educated players.
Only 7% of the UK public attended private school.
21 of the 31 man squad for the 2015 World Cup went to fee-paying schools.

I just think maybe engage the working classes.

As George Orwell said "If There Is Hope It Lies In The Proles"

Here is a list of players and school fees.

Brad Barritt, 29, Saracens, Centre, 22 caps: Kearsney College, Durban, South Africa (£9,478 to)

Kieran Brookes, 24, Northampton, Prop, 11 caps: Kirkham Grammar School, Lancashire (£10,014)

Mike Brown, 29, Harlequins, Full Back, 37 caps: Wyvern College, Wiltshire (free)

Sam Burgess, 26, Bath, Centre, 1 cap: Heckmondwike Grammar School, West Yorkshire (free)

Danny Care, 28, Harlequins, Scrum Half, 51 caps: Prince Henry's Grammar School, West Yorkshire (free)

Dan Cole, 28, Leicester, Prop, 50 caps: Robert Smyth Academy, Leicestershire (free)

Owen Farrell, 23, Saracens, Fly Half, 30 caps: St George's School, Hertfordshire (£11,175)

George Ford, 22, Bath, Fly Half, 11 caps: St George's School, Hertfordshire (£11,175)

Jamie George, 24, Saracens, Hooker, 0 caps: Haileybury, Hertfordshire (£30,900)

Alex Goode, 27, Saracens, Full Back, 17 caps: Oakham School, Rutland (£31,110)

James Haskell, 30, Wasps, Flanker, 58 caps: Wellington College, Berkshire (£35,775)

Jonathan Joseph, 24, Bath, Centre, 11 caps: Millfield, Somerset (£34,650)

George Kruis, 25, Saracens, Lock, 7 caps: St John's School, Surrey (£28,125)

Joe Launchbury, 24, Wasps, Lock, 22 caps: Christ's Hospital, West Sussex (£30,450)

Courtney Lawes, 26, Northampton, Lock, 38 caps: Northampton School for Boys, Northamptonshire (free)

Joe Marler, 25, Harlequins, Prop, 31 caps: Heathfield Community College, East Sussex (free)

Jonny May, 25, Gloucester , Winger, 14 caps: Hartpury College, Gloucestershire (£14,500)

Ben Morgan, 26, Gloucester, No 8, 28 caps: Katharine Lady Berkeley's School, Gloucestershire (free)

Jack Nowell, 22, Exeter, Winger, 8 caps: Mounts Bay Academy, Cornwall (free)

Geoff Parling, 31, Exeter, Lock, 24 caps: Durham School, County Durham (£26,496)

Chris Robshaw, 29, Harlequins, Flanker, 37 caps: Millfield, Somerset (£34,650)

Henry Slade, 22, Exeter, Fly Half, 1 cap: Plymouth College, Plymouth (£27,765)

Billy Vunipola, 22, Saracens, No 8, 17 caps: Harrow School, London (£36,150)

Mako Vunipola, 24, Saracens, Prop, 20 caps: Millfield, Somerset (£34,650)

Anthony Watson, 21, Bath, Full Back, 10 caps: St George's College, London (£17,235)

Rob Webber, 29, Bath, Hooker, 13 caps: Pocklington School, East Yorkshire (£24,297)

Richard Wigglesworth, 32, Saracens, Scrum Half, 22 caps: Kirkham Grammar School, Lancashire (£10,014)

David Wilson, 30, Bath, Prop, 42 caps: East Durham College, County Durham (free)

Tom Wood, 28, Northampton, Flanker, 37 caps: The Woodlands School, West Midlands (free)

Ben Youngs, 25, Leicester, Scrum Half, 47 caps: Gresham's School, Norfolk (£31,950)

Tom Youngs, 28, Leicester, Hooker, 22 caps: Gresham's School, Norfolk (£31,950)

halfmanhalfbiscuit · Post by **halfmanhalfbiscuit** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:36 pm

dpinsussex wrote:Never assume makes a complete ass out of u. Certainly not me on this occasion
Hampshire / berkshire border

...and me

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:46 pm

Looking at it another way " HMHB ", there is a significant over-representation of BAME players in tomorrow's line-up, leading to a shameful neglect of indiginous white players, as measured by the Country's population at large...

The same is also true of the Squad make-up of the 20 Premier League Clubs !! Questions in the House, Public Enquires, or as " Blackrod " put it so well " Does it matter ? "......

Duffer_ · Post by **Duffer_** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:47 pm

SammyBoy wrote:I went to a state school and can literally count on one hand

Show off.

UTC!

LeadBelly · Post by **LeadBelly** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:49 pm

hmhb
Why don't you do the same for the GB gold medallists at the last Olympics. I reckon it'll also show a very strong bias towards people who went to fee-paying schools. As already pointed out, some of this is due to people who are promising at sport being offered scholarships etc to these schools. Part of it due to the much better sports facilities at fee-paying schools where the cricket pitches/ rugby pitches havent been sold off.
Probably a high % of England cricket internationals have been to fee-paying schools too.

halfmanhalfbiscuit · Post by **halfmanhalfbiscuit** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:09 pm

Clarets4me wrote:Looking at it another way " HMHB ", there is a significant over-representation of BAME players in tomorrow's line-up, leading to a shameful neglect of indiginous white players, as measured by the Country's population at large...

The same is also true of the Squad make-up of the 20 Premier League Clubs !! Questions in the House, Public Enquires, or as " Blackrod " put it so well " Does it matter ? "......

If you have an details about premier league players and educational background it would be greatly appreciated.

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:11 pm

Joe Root is a case in point, attended his local State Secondary school up to the age of 15, then was awarded a Scholarship to the Independent Worksop College, where he attended as a " weekly boarder "...

halfmanhalfbiscuit · Post by **halfmanhalfbiscuit** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:16 pm

LeadBelly wrote:hmhb
Why don't you do the same for the GB gold medallists at the last Olympics. I reckon it'll also show a very strong bias towards people who went to fee-paying schools. As already pointed out, some of this is due to people who are promising at sport being offered scholarships etc to these schools. Part of it due to the much better sports facilities at fee-paying schools where the cricket pitches/ rugby pitches havent been sold off.
Probably a high % of England cricket internationals have been to fee-paying schools too.

I appreciate this, obviously a talent gets picked by a good school.
I'd like to know what the figures are for other countries.
Like other people have mentioned, Rugby was a massively ignored sport in my school too.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:17 pm

My niece was forced (very much against her will!) to play full contact rugby union for a year at state school (Durham). She learned that they can't tackle you if you don't have the ball; on the one occasion she did get the ball, the threw it away sharpish!

CoolClaret · Post by **CoolClaret** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:20 pm

Clarets4me wrote:Lots of Schools rugby down in the West Country too..

Before QEGS Blackburn returned to the State Sector in 2014, it was the most successfull ever School in the Independent Schools FA Cup, with 3 wins between 1992 - 2005. They also won the Cup in it's previous format in 1980 and were runners-up in 1982... below is a list of ex Independent School pupils currently playing professionally, including our current " Custodian " ....

http://www.isfa.org.uk/about/28-about/c ... al-players

UTC !!

Old Blackburnian here

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:24 pm

halfmanhalfbiscuit wrote:If you have an details about premier league players and educational background it would be greatly appreciated.

I've never seen any stats, the nearest I've seen is what I posted in post # 10 ......

halfmanhalfbiscuit · Post by **halfmanhalfbiscuit** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:27 pm

Clarets4me wrote:I've never seen any stats, the nearest I've seen is what I posted in post # 10 ......

I'd have to say that's not a very long list.

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:35 pm

Let's flip it around. Are there many privately educated professional footballers ? ( other than Bamford and his violin)

Caernarfon_Claret · Post by **Caernarfon_Claret** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:37 pm

Article from 5 years ago.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21457349" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looks like smallest percentage amongst Olympic Gold medal Cyclists.

Excerpt.

With the staggering rise in the affluence of footballers and the likelihood that many will send their children to private schools, there could be more sons following fathers and changing the educational make-up of the game.

But the skew towards private schools in some sports should not necessarily be taken as a substitute for class.

The example of Victor Moses highlights another phenomenon. The ethos of many private schools places a strong emphasis on competitive sport as having "a positive influence on every pupil", as Repton puts it.

It has led the likes of Moses to receive scholarships and bursaries that open the doors to private schools for those who could not normally afford it.

halfmanhalfbiscuit · Post by **halfmanhalfbiscuit** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:38 pm

No Blackrod, I don't think there are.

Caernarfon_Claret · Post by **Caernarfon_Claret** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:42 pm

Interestingly Rugby League has fewer privately educated players than football, which makes sense as it's stuck closer to it's working class roots than football has.

Very similar model to football.

Professional football/Rugby (League) - working class

Amateur football/ Rugby (Union) - Middle/Upper class.

The advent of Riugby Union turning professional and football moving towards a more middle class market has altered things a little.

Cricket was always the strange one as there was always a mix of amateur gentlemen and professional working class players.

NL Claret · Post by **NL Claret** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:45 pm

Thought many were sent up to Sedbergh if they were decent at rugger or cricket on scholarships.

I had the misfortune to go to a fee paying school and if you were no good at football they were sent off to play rugger.

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:49 pm

CoolClaret wrote:Old Blackburnian here

Years ?? There's a few of us on here PimlicoClaret amongst others...

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:32 pm

seriously, this is why i detest this sport, i do recognise the skill involved, and would never dismiss the intensity and passion of the players, but as a poor lad from burnley, it stinks. I cannot relate to it in any capacity.
I resent the coverage it gets from the ex pupils of same schools now in the media , basically using license fees from BBC to inflict their prejudices for this sport on all of us.
I was aware once of a Devon based england international, the commentry referred to him being from that locality, turned out his family owned half the county. I find it distasteful .

CoolClaret · Post by **CoolClaret** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:48 pm

Clarets4me wrote:Years ?? There's a few of us on here PimlicoClaret amongst others...

'04-'09

I was an arse, if you went to the school at that time you should be able to figure out who I am

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:03 am

Wile E Coyote wrote:seriously, this is why i detest this sport, i do recognise the skill involved, and would never dismiss the intensity and passion of the players, but as a poor lad from burnley, it stinks. I cannot relate to it in any capacity.
I resent the coverage it gets from the ex pupils of same schools now in the media , basically using license fees from BBC to inflict their prejudices for this sport on all of us.
I was aware once of a Devon based england international, the commentry referred to him being from that locality, turned out his family owned half the county. I find it distasteful .

I was waiting for your contribution Wile !! There's always the remote !!

After the Masters at Augusta, Wimbledon, Badminton & Burghley Horse Trials, Henley Regatta, Royal Ascot, Cowes Week, Queens Club, the Lords Test, Glyndbourne and the Polo at Cowdray Park, I fear you'll either be leading a dungaree clad mob weilding pitch-forks storming the Palaces of the mighty, or alternatively have spontaneously combusted !!

Enjoy your weekend !

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:26 am

CoolClaret wrote:'04-'09

I was an arse, if you went to the school at that time you should be able to figure out who I am

Don't be too harsh on yourself, CC, there's probably no-one on this Board who doesn't wince at the memory of things we said or did in our younger days... Long gone by then, my friend !! 1975 - 1982, last of the State Scholarship intake ...

Probably only Jimmy Grogan and David Hopkinson left from my days there ...

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:49 am

Clarets4me wrote:I was waiting for your contribution Wile !! There's always the remote !!

After the Masters at Augusta, Wimbledon, Badminton & Burghley Horse Trials, Henley Regatta, Royal Ascot, Cowes Week, Queens Club, the Lords Test, Glyndbourne and the Polo at Cowdray Park, I fear you'll either be leading a dungaree clad mob weilding pitch-forks storming the Palaces of the mighty, or alternatively have spontaneously combusted !!

Enjoy your weekend !

are you suggesting simply turning this off will eradicate my knowledge this officers mess , facile, dung heap of a game will be forgotten ?

CaptJohn · Post by **CaptJohn** » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:44 am

As an ex Grammar school pupil I played both football and rugby at school. The big problem when we started playing rugby was the fact that all of us only knew rugby league. The sportsmaster went ballistic when we stopped when tackled and passed it through our legs. He used to carry a size 10 plimsoll and woe betide any poor sod who forget to form a ruck or a maul when tackled

I never thought rugby would catch on TBH. Just shows how much I knew

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:45 am

No different to Hockey, another sport the working classes rarely fall into. When I was in the Army my unit had a very good Hockey team but very few soldiers had played prior to joining.,

Jimmymaccer · Post by **Jimmymaccer** » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:18 am

I went to a private boarding school despite being a mad keen Claret at the age of 11! Rugby pitches only, and football was a dirty word. Now they have immaculate football pitches there as well as rugby and pretty sure a lad from there has recently signed for Wigan FC.....

One thing for sure was that they never stopped me from being a Claret and loving football (although I did play rugby when I finished school).

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:44 am

Wile E Coyote wrote:seriously, this is why i detest this sport, i do recognise the skill involved, and would never dismiss the intensity and passion of the players, but as a poor lad from burnley, it stinks. I cannot relate to it in any capacity.
I resent the coverage it gets from the ex pupils of same schools now in the media , basically using license fees from BBC to inflict their prejudices for this sport on all of us.
I was aware once of a Devon based england international, the commentry referred to him being from that locality, turned out his family owned half the county. I find it distasteful .

Narrow minded. It's like saying I'm not watching Burnley if it's not all 'poor lads' from Burnley watching. Fans are fans whatever walk of like they come from and fans of different types like football and rugby no matter where they were originally played.

fatboy47 · Post by **fatboy47** » Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:47 am

we need to get rugger fully into state schools...i feel sorry for the fat lads that cant play football...the oiks need something..

rugger shouldnt just be material for socially inadequate housemasters to while away the evenings doing the five knuckle shuffle.

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:02 am

fatboy47 wrote:we need to get rugger fully into state schools...i feel sorry for the fat lads that cant play football...the oiks need something..
rugger shouldnt just be material for socially inadequate housemasters to while away the evenings doing the five knuckle shuffle.

You do know that nobody who actually plays the game calls it rugger, don't you ?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:04 am

Blackrod wrote:Does it matter ?

Obviously is does.

Cheshireclaret · Post by **Cheshireclaret** » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:14 am

Blackrod wrote:Let's flip it around. Are there many privately educated professional footballers ? ( other than Bamford and his violin)

Frank Lampard, Will Hughes and Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain are 3 that I know but I’m sure there are more.

It’s a non-issue for me. My 7 year old lad attends state school and plays for his local Rugby Club in Manchester which is open to every single person no matter what their education. The local state Boys school also plays rugby. So to that end, he has every chance of making a career of it if, of course, he’s good enough!

Covclaret · Post by **Covclaret** » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:14 pm

Interesting you mentioned
hockey JohnMac. My eldest fell into hockey aged 8 at a time when football had got to a stage where neither he or I looked forward to his games; either through pressure on 8 year olds to win or through the feral behaviour from parents, coaches and players. He is the exception though as most kids that he's played with are from fee paying schools both in the UK and now in Australia. Going off at a slight tangent, he's currently playing in the under 18 Australian championships and took to the field earlier tonight in his favourite Burnley shirt. He thinks it's lucky. It worked, we beat Tasmania 5-2

CoolClaret · Post by **CoolClaret** » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:09 pm

Clarets4me wrote:Don't be too harsh on yourself, CC, there's probably no-one on this Board who doesn't wince at the memory of things we said or did in our younger days... Long gone by then, my friend !! 1975 - 1982, last of the State Scholarship intake ...

Probably only Jimmy Grogan and David Hopkinson left from my days there ...

Excellent!

Yes Mr.Grogan was my classics teacher and I had many altercations with 'Oppy as he was standin deputy head in my forth & fifth years.
Two top blokes, really enjoyed my time there!

halfmanhalfbiscuit · Post by **halfmanhalfbiscuit** » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:33 pm

Cheshireclaret wrote:Frank Lampard, Will Hughes and Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain are 3 that I know but I’m sure there are more.

It’s a non-issue for me. My 7 year old lad attends state school and plays for his local Rugby Club in Manchester which is open to every single person no matter what their education. The local state Boys school also plays rugby. So to that end, he has every chance of making a career of it if, of course, he’s good enough!

This is the link that was posted above.
It's a very short list
http://www.isfa.org.uk/about/28-about/c ... al-players" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:47 pm

Blackrod wrote:Narrow minded. It's like saying I'm not watching Burnley if it's not all 'poor lads' from Burnley watching. Fans are fans whatever walk of like they come from and fans of different types like football and rugby no matter where they were originally played.

i don't consider myself remotely narrow minded,

I cannot glibly detatch my views about elitist sports and begin to enjoy them.
Its class ridden, and it makes a difference , i dont like the agenda the media have for foisting this sport on us.
If you regard my point of view as irrelevant, fine, but i do identify with football easily, politics is everywhere, and rugby union is so far removed from the background of the majority of football fans as to make it almost alien.

halfmanhalfbiscuit · Post by **halfmanhalfbiscuit** » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:11 pm

Blackrod wrote:Narrow minded. It's like saying I'm not watching Burnley if it's not all 'poor lads' from Burnley watching. Fans are fans whatever walk of like they come from and fans of different types like football and rugby no matter where they were originally played.

The working classes have been excluded from Rugby. Clear and definite.
So I don’t understand why people support something that is nothing to do with them.
The rugby world has no respect for it’s working class supporters, no real interest in recruiting working class players and actually just no respect for the working class at all.
An elitist sport played by public schoolboys who look down their noses at the great unwashed from the North.

Caernarfon_Claret · Post by **Caernarfon_Claret** » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:28 pm

Rugby and Association football both first played at public schools by the elite as were all other forms of football before they were codified.

No point ignoring history and claiming football wasn't as elitist as rugby union is still perceived as.

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:33 pm

halfmanhalfbiscuit wrote:The working classes have been excluded from Rugby. Clear and definite.
So I don’t understand why people support something that is nothing to do with them.
The rugby world has no respect for it’s working class supporters, no real interest in recruiting working class players and actually just no respect for the working class at all.
An elitist sport played by public schoolboys who look down their noses at the great unwashed from the North.

As l said narrow minded. You might have an argument with Polo or Formula 1 where the costs of entry, to make this career, are out of the reach of many.