Rick_Muller wrote:Can I just say, I personally dont think you're paid anywhere near enough for what you do. I am a regular patient at my local hospital, and the nurses there are fantastic - as are most nurses that I have encountered in the NHS. So, thank you Inchy for being a nurse.

Cheers Much appreciated. I feel I earn an alright salary and am fortunate that my wife is also a band 6 nurse and therefore our household income is alright. I feel for nurses that are single parents living down south. Must be very difficult for them

Rick_Muller wrote:Can I just say, I personally dont think you're paid anywhere near enough for what you do. I am a regular patient at my local hospital, and the nurses there are fantastic - as are most nurses that I have encountered in the NHS. So, thank you Inchy for being a nurse.

I think i've heard of you and why you're there quite regularly. are you the one they refer to as Rick Muller the Cavity Filler?
I'll be careful not to tell everyone what you're often there for.

Inchy wrote:Here’s how much I will have for luxuries.

I am a band 6 nurse on the 3rd tier of the band so my basic salary is £28,746. After tax, pension, union fee (which is almost mandatory), my take home pay is about 1650 a month. Because I work weekends I actually earn nearer to 31k a year. My take home pay fluctuates between 1650 to 2000 depending on how many nights/ weekends I work.

If I recieve the 6.5 percent pay increase average I will increase my monthly pay by 168, although it will fluctuate depending on nights/weekends. After tax and pension It will obviously be less than that.

The vast majority of nurses are band 5 so will not recieve that much if they get the 6.5 percent average.

Not sure what luxuries I can get with that? A takeaway a week?

Although I welcome the change I won’t be booking the cruise anytime soon

So you'll be going up to the fourth tier of Band 6 and a basic salary of £30,515, not including enhancements for night/weekend/bank holiday working, representing a 6.15% pay increase in one year. You fully deserve that and the government needed to recognise the great job nurses and other health professionals do, but the incremental scheme should not be ignored because for many it increases pay annually, and it has protected staff during 1% and 0% uplifts to those pay points in recent years.

The 4th tier of band 6 is £29,626 so it’s less than a £1000 increase.

Agenda for change was brought in to reward experience and to save the public money. Most nurses lost out when it came in. You cannot count it as a pay rise as you could argue that a nurses should be earning at least the middle tier of that band anyway. It wasn’t brought in to reward nurses but to pay less to less experienced nurses

But to some extent I do agree. If you are at the top of your band you have really suffered

There's the 3% increase to be added to the £29,626. Appreciate the point about those at top of band.

taio wrote:There's the 3% increase to be added to the £29,626. Appreciate the point about those at top of band.

So they are using this pay increase to get rid of yearly increments making it easier to totally freeze pay in the future

Not aware that's on the cards now.

So will these pay deals stand up when the tories sell off the NHS?

Or lose the next election?

Inchy wrote:

B4781D4A-B60E-4289-A559-5614BDB54642.png

So they are using this pay increase to get rid of yearly increments making it easier to totally freeze pay in the future

Exactly what happened in HMRC, MoD, MoJ, NOMS, DWP and HCO after the last proper rise in 2009 with the creation of the new 'spine points'. Pay freezes were alot easier to administrate by doing it this way.

The next thing will be new T&Cs so that you lose a couple of days holiday and then another tweak of your pension.

The Times (on-line) report:

Calls to boost pay for public sector as NHS workers see rises up to 29%

Ministers are under pressure to offer all public sector workers a pay rise after some NHS staff were promised rises of 29 per cent.

All NHS staff will be paid above the living wage of £8.75 an hour after ministers agreed to scrap the lowest pay band for nurses, hospital cleaners and more than a million other staff.

They will get pay rises of £2,300 over the next three years. Some workers on £31,000 will get rises of more than £9,100 over the same period.
All will receive at least 6.5 per cent.

Sarah Gorton of the union Unison said: “The agreement means an end at last the government’s self-defeating and unfair pay cap. It won’t solve every problem in the NHS, but would go along way toward making dedicated health staff feel more valued.”

Trade unions have agreed a deal with NHS bosses which the government has agreed to fund in full, signalling an end to years of pay restraint that has built resentment among frontline staff.

A controversial proposal to force staff to give up a day’s holiday in exchange for a rise was dropped. There had been fears that the condition, described as “mean-spirited” by John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, would have irritated staff and made it harder to retain workers who are already contributing unpaid overtime.

Jeremy Hunt, the health secretary, did not push for the idea and agreed with unions that it was not necessary. Instead unions have agreed to look at how sickness absence in the NHS, which is higher than in other organisations, can be reduced.

The 14 trade unions that represent NHS workers are due to recommend the deal formally to members after a meeting this morning. There will be a 3 per cent rise in 2018-19 followed by rises of 2 and 1 per cent in the subsequent two years. Mr Hunt had been pushing for a pay rise since the election, saying last summer that he had a “great deal of sympathy” for nurses.

Philip Hammond, the chancellor, agreed to find new money for the deal after NHS bosses warned that having to pay for it out of already overstretched budgets would harm patient care. Mr Hammond said in last week’s spring statement that he hoped to be able to spend more on public services if the economy continued to improve.

A shortage of trained staff has emerged as one of the biggest problems facing the NHS, with tens of thousands of vacancies across the health service. Recruitment problems have been blamed on staff pay rises which have been capped at 1 per cent for the past five years, after two years in which they were frozen. Ministers accepted that it would be harder to retain skilled workers if real-terms pay, which has declined by thousands of pounds a year since 2010, continued to fall.

Today’s deal covers nurses, midwives, therapists and healthcare assistants and is likely to be targeted at the lowest paid, with some getting rises of up to 30 per cent as low pay bands are abolished. The Royal College of Nursing, Unison and other unions will ask members to support the agreement. Pay for doctors and senior managers is covered by separate deals which are not expected to be so generous. Yesterday the NHS agreed a 1 per cent pay rise for GPs.

PW notes: I've added the underlines. I've also omitted a few short paras that don't directly address the pay rise.

14 trade unions representing NHS workers?

No bloody wonder it takes ages to get anything agreed upon, there must be a way to bring that number down a bit???

Royal College of Nursing, royal college of midwifes, royal collage of radiographer etc etc


Unions don’t just go on about pay. The RCN send me publications relating to adult nursing.

No point me being with the royal college of midwifery. The education side of these unions are massive

The unions are certainly recognising incremental progression with bandings as a genuine pay increase and there's also going to be a narrowing of bands too.

So Inchy by the end of the three paid your basic salary will have deservedly gone up by £5,000 or 17.5%.

But I’d rather not have that big of a jump and keep incremental pay.


It’s totally unfair that a band 2 support worker with 20 years of experience is on the same money as a new support worker. HCAs are the backbone of wards and this is a slap in the face to them.

Added to that in 5 year if the tories are in what are he chances they implement another pay freeze? I’d they do that it will be a total pay freeze for everyone, not just those at the top of their band

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I'm a bit baffled by all this talk of annual increments? I've just read that they were worth 2.5% per year on average (Nursing Times). Yet for the past 6 or 7 years there's been furore about a 1% pay cap, does that mean everyone has been receiving 3.5% per year rise by virtue of increment + rise?

It also looks like those at the bottom end of their pay band, whilst receiving bigger increments over the next 3 years, will never actually reach the top of their band.

So for example if you're a newly qualified nurse at the bottom of band 5, in 3 years time you'll hit £26,970, which is more than you'd earn on the old pay scale after 3 years, but your pay then stops incrementing.

The top of band 5 is currently £28,746, so you'll never actually reach the top of your band under this new deal.

This looks like a way of bribing people to take a long term pay cut for the rest of their career by taking bigger increments over the next 3 years. They'll gain over the next 3 years, but will then lose out for the next 30+ years.

Caballo wrote:I'm a bit baffled by all this talk of annual increments? I've just read that they were worth 2.5% per year on average (Nursing Times). Yet for the past 6 or 7 years there's been furore about a 1% pay cap, does that mean everyone has been receiving 3.5% per year rise by virtue of increment + rise?

I don’t know the figure but I imagine the majority of nurses are at the top of their band, or have got there in the past 8 years.

Inchy wrote:I don’t know the figure but I imagine the majority of nurses are at the top of their band, or have got there in the past 8 years.

That sheds a different light Inchy, so the annual increments aren't Ad Infinitum, there's a ceiling. That makes more sense.

If it be your will wrote:Yeah, it's a total con is this pay deal, Inchy. Just looking at the figures in the table. Take a 3rd year band 5 nurse on £23,597 now: in 3 years they'll be on £27,416, and this is claimed as a 16% pay increase. But had they kept the old system, the same nurse would have got to £26,565 anyway with their increments. So what this nurse is actually getting is a 3% pay increase over 3 years. RPI inflation (release yesterday) is 3.6% year-on-year!

This is a joke offer, I'm amazed only the GMB have objected. My suspicions were raised when I heard on the radio that no more money would be needed to fund this. Of course not! It's a pay cut!

Are you in a union? Will you be voting in favour or against?

Yes I am in the RCN. You pretty much have to be as a nurse as they cover your legal expenses if you make an error that ends up in court.

I don’t know which way I am going to vote. I think the public at the moment generally have a lot of sympathy for nurses. I feel that that will change if this offer is voted down. The way the media is making this out to be some amazing deal will be believed by a lot of the public so refusing it will get people’s backs up.

Increments have always been a thing in the NHS. The idea being that you get better at your job over 5 or 6 years, so an experienced band 6 is paid more than someone new to a band 6. The theory being that by the time you get to the top of a band, you’re already capable of the band above, if not working to that level. Obviously for some professions, that’s not always possible as there isn’t as much scope for promotion. It’s important to remember that it’s not a cost of living rise, it’s a rise for being better at your job. Hunt sees it as outdated, but that ignores the point that as public sector pay and promotion is very structured. If you feel you deserve more pay based on the job you’re doing outside of the incremental structure, the only way to achieve it is to apply for another job. 99.9% of the time this would be under open and fair competition. It’s six of one, half a dozen of the other; yes some people get increments who don’t deserve them and haven’t improved, but for many they’re the only way of rewarding people for getting better at their job. One other thing not to be forgotten is we have people joining the NHS and taking a pay cut knowing their salary will improve over 5 years to match/better what they’re currently on.

It’s disappointing to see people including increments in percentage rise. The only true percentage rise should be covered on 1st April each year what are people being paid more than the 31st March.

Under the new proposals they’re once again saying that staff will have to demonstrate improvement to get increments. Great idea in principle, but in reality it just doesn’t work in the public sector, and there’s plenty of evidence that it hasn’t worked in the past.

So if it isn't the right move, why have 14 unions signed it off?

No idea Sidney. I imagine because it’s the best they think they will get. The majority of the unions have never been on strike and don’t want to make that decision.

Also a lot of their members will benefit and recieve a decent pay rise. But others will only recieve a very smalll pay rise. Scrapping increments is a bad idea imo. I am a newish band 6 so I am set to benefit well. However I’d rather take less and keep the increments as it fair

Sidney1st wrote:So if it isn't the right move, why have 14 unions signed it off?

Possible this from inchy..
“I don’t know which way I am going to vote. I think the public at the moment generally have a lot of sympathy for nurses. I feel that that will change if this offer is voted down. The way the media is making this out to be some amazing deal will be believed by a lot of the public so refusing it will get people’s backs up”

So the implication is they've backed down to get something...

Yet when some of the unions start calling for more strikes in the not to distant future don't you think that would annoy the public anyway?

Some unions like unison strike depending on which way the wind is blowing. Others like the RCN have never been on strike.

If labour return to power in the next 10 years I don’t think there will be need to strike given labours record of nursing pay vs the Tories record

Maybe the deal was accepted because it’s the best we are going to get from the tories, and there is a decent chance it will be improved anyway by a bit of moaning if labour get in power

It was agreed with unions in 2013 to get rid of annual increments.This deal actions that and the 6% average is as some have said to fund the transition. The Treasury couldnt afford it till now. Those at top of scale were never intended to benefit as much sadly.

It's as simple as it's better than nothing Sidney. In my 20 odd years in the NHS it's been rare for us to get a payrise matching/over inflation, and that's if ever. The government is never going to give us what we'd really like, so you've got to find a balance somewhere.

I got an extra 20p an hour. Brilliant.

Inchy wrote:I got an extra 20p an hour. Brilliant.

Ah, but before or after tax ?


Still waiting to find out. Will only affect me for 3 months as just given my notice in. So I'll save the NHS £??,??? per year.

That’s before tax, NI etc haha

.

ChorltonCharlie wrote:It's as simple as it's better than nothing Sidney. In my 20 odd years in the NHS it's been rare for us to get a payrise matching/over inflation, and that's if ever. The government is never going to give us what we'd really like, so you've got to find a balance somewhere.

Just for belated statistical purposes: In December 1998 the pay for a top of scale staff nurse was £14,705.
According to ifitbeoyurwill above, the current equivalent for a 6 year band 5 nurse - it think that's a near equivalent? - is £26,595.
That's an increase of 80.8%. Inflation since December 1998 is 71.3% (RPI).

So it might feel like nurses never get pay rise that matches inflation, but in practice, they must have.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/backg ... 265087.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ChorltonCharlie wrote:It's as simple as it's better than nothing Sidney. In my 20 odd years in the NHS it's been rare for us to get a payrise matching/over inflation, and that's if ever. The government is never going to give us what we'd really like, so you've got to find a balance somewhere.

If this comment about wages and pay rises is true why do people hate the Tories but bang one out over Labour when it comes to the NHS?

If it be your will wrote:Remember all this, Inchy? I knew it was a total con at the time, and now it's all coming out in the wash: https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... some-staff" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I gather today the RCN leadership had, and lost, a vote of no confidence in their leadership for grossly misrepresenting the 'benefits' of the pay deal to their own members, forcing them all to stand down. It is now widely being suggested the RCN leadership were politically motivated to intentionally mislead their members. https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/workf ... 74.article" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I still can't believe the GMB was the only union to recommend their members vote against. This was always a shocking deal, and it's a disgrace that the media - including the BBC - at the time made out this was a wonderful gift to NHS staff. Where's the BBC now? (I had to get this news from Skwawkbox!)

My first year of the pay rise equates to 400 quid. That’s over the year not the month. I knew I was never going to be a millionaire when I entered nursing. It’s not why you do the job. However some clarity on the pay rise would have been nice, rather than making it so convoluted most nurses couldn’t work out if it was decent or not.

dsr wrote:Just for belated statistical purposes: In December 1998 the pay for a top of scale staff nurse was £14,705.
According to ifitbeoyurwill above, the current equivalent for a 6 year band 5 nurse - it think that's a near equivalent? - is £26,595.
That's an increase of 80.8%. Inflation since December 1998 is 71.3% (RPI).

So it might feel like nurses never get pay rise that matches inflation, but in practice, they must have.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/backg ... 265087.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No, it feels that nurses never get a pay rise under the tories. And for the last 8 years that’s been the case

I think you will find that take home pay may still have fallen as there have been a lot of increase in pension contributions from a pretty flat 6% to up to around 14% for those on higher salaries of over £100k. I don't think many NHS workers are any better off than 10 years ago but I stand to be corrected. No doubt some CE will be but again not many

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[quote="dsr"]Just for belated statistical purposes: In December 1998 the pay for a top of scale staff nurse was £14,705.
According to ifitbeoyurwill above, the current equivalent for a 6 year band 5 nurse - it think that's a near equivalent? - is £26,595.
That's an increase of 80.8%. Inflation since December 1998 is 71.3% (RPI).

So it might feel like nurses never get pay rise that matches inflation, but in practice, they must have.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/backg ... 265087.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;[/quote
What you have failed to factor was house prices were less than half, petrol prices were 60p a litre and a pint if beer Around £1.40. The tinternet is great for googling. There will be other examples (more/less) but on the basis of your 80% assumption then yes, in real terms nurses have lost out

I understand why politicians use spin, it's to bullshit us. But what I don't understand is how when their bullshit is laid bare there are some of us who choose to believe and advance the spin.
Didn't we used to all agree that politicians spinning the facts was the same as lying?

Don't get me started on politics it's the weekend. Enjoy

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This thread smacks of Tories scrambling to seem relevant on the eve of their conference. Always the condescending; "people shouldn't desire nice things for themselves" attitude. Eight years of austerity, and the biggest sell off of state assets since Thatcher, and all we have to show for it is a really low corporation tax rate.

If it be your will wrote:In many cases, the 'some of us' you speak of are the very people who are supposed to advance and protect our interests, like the RCN for nurses.

Even that I understand because they have politics too. But i mean just individuals, on things like internet forums.

1Simpleton wrote:What you have failed to factor was house prices were less than half, petrol prices were 60p a litre and a pint if beer Around £1.40. The tinternet is great for googling. There will be other examples (more/less) but on the basis of your 80% assumption then yes, in real terms nurses have lost out

As you say, t'internet is great for googling. And if you had googled what RPI stands for, you would have noticed that I have factored in house prices, petrol prices, and pints of beer.

The RPI is the Retail Prices Index. It is an index calculated to work out the price difference between a "basket" of household goods, including food, alcohol, housing costs, heat and light, motoring, leisure goods and service, travel costs, etc etc. See link for an analysis of what's in it. So by comparing salaries with the RPI, I was specifically factoring in all the stuff you say I wasn't factoring in.

file:///C:/Users/David/Downloads/cpibasket2012_tcm77-259958.pdf

Reading between the lines you are saying nurses were over paid in the 90's or should be happy with the 6% pay rise. Either way it does not cut it because many days nurses are expected to perform 2 or 3 duties. If you turned up for work and your boss expected you to perform at 200/300% due to the lack of staff at an efficient excellent standard of care would be happy with a pay rise below inflation? Certainly does not make you feel valued

1Simpleton wrote:Reading between the lines you are saying nurses were over paid in the 90's or should be happy with the 6% pay rise. Either way it does not cut it because many days nurses are expected to perform 2 or 3 duties. If you turned up for work and your boss expected you to perform at 200/300% due to the lack of staff at an efficient excellent standard of care would be happy with a pay rise below inflation? Certainly does not make you feel valued

Reading between the lines? You don't need to read between the lines; just read the lines. I mean, I could look at your post and say "reading between the lines, you are in favour of violent revolution and the execution of all health ministers", but I don't because I would have to be a simpleton to do that.

What I said was "So it might feel like nurses never get pay rise that matches inflation, but in practice, they must have.". By that I meant - trying to keep it simple - that although it feels to inchy that nurses have never had an above-inflation pay rise, that in practive, they must have. That's it. You obviously appreciate the virtues of simplicity; so embrace it. Don't invent complicated arguments and then get cross because you don't like the argument you have invented.

dsr wrote:Reading between the lines? You don't need to read between the lines; just read the lines. I mean, I could look at your post and say "reading between the lines, you are in favour of violent revolution and the execution of all health ministers", but I don't because I would have to be a simpleton to do that.

What I said was "So it might feel like nurses never get pay rise that matches inflation, but in practice, they must have.". By that I meant - trying to keep it simple - that although it feels to inchy that nurses have never had an above-inflation pay rise, that in practive, they must have. That's it. You obviously appreciate the virtues of simplicity; so embrace it. Don't invent complicated arguments and then get cross because you don't like the argument you have invented.

I have never said I believe or “feel” that nurses have never had an above inflation pay rise. I said we haven’t since the tories got in. Which we haven’t.

Out of interest I wonder if a Tory government have ever given nurses an above inflation pay rise

HatfieldClaret wrote:Ah, but before or after tax ?


Still waiting to find out. Will only affect me for 3 months as just given my notice in. So I'll save the NHS £??,??? per year.

Many more will follow you too and quit, why work for peanuts under immense pressure with no thanks , an average pay rise would have been sufficient, but what nhs staff have had to accept is nothing short of disgusting, I'm not going down the politics route just the common sense route , these people work tirelessly day in day out to save lives of our loved ones and this is how they get repaid !