Nick Pope

scouseclaret · Post by **scouseclaret** » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:02 pm

KRBFC wrote:Hart will be there for experience solely and based on his performance today Hart isn't finished just yet. Pickford v Pope? who won the contest? I personally don't judge a goalkeeper off what happens in 1 game. Southgate obviously wants a goalkeeper with good distribution which is the only area where Pope isn't great. A goalkeeper is as good as the defence infront of him, Stoke are terrible which makes the whole Pope v Butland comparison on Burnley v Stoke a little stupid.

Just don’t get the “experience” argument. If you’re not worthy of your place in the team on merit, the only “experience” you bring is the baggage of failure. Who needs that?

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:04 pm

KRBFC wrote:Hart will be there for experience solely and based on his performance today Hart isn't finished just yet. Pickford v Pope? who won the contest? I personally don't judge a goalkeeper off what happens in 1 game. Southgate obviously wants a goalkeeper with good distribution which is the only area where Pope isn't great. A goalkeeper is as good as the defence infront of him, Stoke are terrible which makes the whole Pope v Butland comparison on Burnley v Stoke a little stupid.

OK. So at the London Stadium we were able to observe how Joe Hart performed and how Nick Pope performed. Who kept the clean sheet? Who stopped some good scoring chances? Who dropped a shot from outside the box and was beaten by the quick reactions of the forward? And, if you were watching who had the better distribution and who kicked the ball into touch?

I wasn't at the game when we played Everton, watched on Sky. Which of Pickford and Pope made the mistake of starting to come out then retreating back to his goal and letting the forward get in a clean shot?

It's all great to rate a keeper on his distribution, but isn't that a skill that you rate after you've rated the ability to stop goals being conceded?

At Watford, yesterday, Nick Pope was better than "the defence in front of him." The defence was opened up a couple of times and Nick Pope made excellent saves.

Southgate's challenge is that Nick Pope has no international experience. A few months ago Nick Pope had no Premier League experience....

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:32 pm

Paul Waine wrote:OK. So at the London Stadium we were able to observe how Joe Hart performed and how Nick Pope performed. Who kept the clean sheet? Who stopped some good scoring chances? Who dropped a shot from outside the box and was beaten by the quick reactions of the forward? And, if you were watching who had the better distribution and who kicked the ball into touch?

I wasn't at the game when we played Everton, watched on Sky. Which of Pickford and Pope made the mistake of starting to come out then retreating back to his goal and letting the forward get in a clean shot?

It's all great to rate a keeper on his distribution, but isn't that a skill that you rate after you've rated the ability to stop goals being conceded?

At Watford, yesterday, Nick Pope was better than "the defence in front of him." The defence was opened up a couple of times and Nick Pope made excellent saves.

Southgate's challenge is that Nick Pope has no international experience. A few months ago Nick Pope had no Premier League experience....

There's absolutely no argument about who is in the better form out of the 4, so I don't understand the comparison you're trying to make. The 3 haven't had the benefit of a solid defence infront of them that Pope has had, Butland is very good but is in poor form because the defence infront of him is terrible which certainly doesn't help. Pep wanted a keeper who could do both, Southgate wants the same, Pickford is an excellent young keeper same as Pope, Pickford edges it in distribution and experience.

What happened at the London Stadium doesn't matter, nor does it matter about the mistake Pickford made against us, it doesn't make sense to compare 2 footballers on 90 minutes of football in a 38 game season.

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:01 am

It will be noted joe Hart had a very good game today against Chelsea ..and to be be fair to him,he did! When ..... We qualify for the Europa League it will Stand the pope in good stead for the Euros.

scouseclaret · Post by **scouseclaret** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:34 am

KRBFC wrote:What happened at the London Stadium doesn't matter, nor does it matter about the mistake Pickford made against us, it doesn't make sense to compare 2 footballers on 90 minutes of football in a 38 game season.

...and on pretty much every metric you care to look at over the 32 games played so far, Pope comes out as the best English keeper by a distance.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CX2CtmZwupg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:42 am

Hart can go to add his experience...for whatever that's worth, without being in the 23.

kendalianclaret · Post by **kendalianclaret** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:59 am

dsr wrote:I notice the last action on MotD last night was a cross coming into the area which Pope punched away followed by another cross which he caught. I couldn't see the point of that clip except to show that Pope can do crosses as well - maybe there's a MotD editor pushing the Pope bandwagon?

I deliver goods all over the uk and in the front of the van is a Burnley scarf. so obviously i get a lot of banter good and bad, (but mostly good), from other fans earlier in the season before Tom got injured i was delivering to a chap in Brighton who's good mate was Nick Pope, and he asked me what i thought of him at which point i said we hadn't had time to assess is abilities because Tom Heaton was playing so well and had only seen him in reserve matches and a cup match but appears steady, he then said he was a great guy who gives all to the cause but is a bit weak on crosses, but after seeing him this season have to ask myself did this guy really know him because he commands the area superbly, hopefully Nick will get the call up to the squad because as someone said earlier he plays against some of the best players in the world most weeks, and finally i must say it must be a long time since a small town like Burnley had the best 2 English keepers playing for them, what a time to be a claret.

ashtonlongsider · Post by **ashtonlongsider** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:27 am

I think Pope's main priority at present is to retain the No1 spot with us, given TH breathing is down his neck. I think Southgate picked Pope in the last squad for insurance with one eye on the future, baring any unforced injuries to the 3 upper mind in his thinking. I personally think Hart has been given a tough time over the last few years. To me it's scandalous a player of his quality being constantly loaned out. A big clubs going to get a top keeper this summer in Hart. I've always been of the opinion he would make the cut given his talent and vast experience in tournament football.

1914tyrone · Post by **1914tyrone** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:34 am

If Hart has to go for the experience then take him as part of the coaching staff! Want him nowhere near being number one choice

jlup1980 · Post by **jlup1980** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:49 am

Hart has one decent match and Crooks has him in the team of the week saying Southgate might have solved his GK problem. Remarkable.

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:52 am

But can he coach?

Culmclaret · Post by **Culmclaret** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:52 am

Hart’s experience of tournament football is one of the (many) reasons why I would not pick him

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:04 am

Great thread on the weekend Pope let one straight through him, Pickford kept a clean sheet against Liverpool and Hart had a worldie against Chelsea.

Burnley fans need to prepare for disappointment.

Caernarfon_Claret · Post by **Caernarfon_Claret** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:15 am

If you based England squad selection on one excellent performance you'd have a team full of one cap wonders.

Chelsea currently 11th in form table (last 6) or 14th (last 10). Scoring 8 goals in last six games or 13 in last 10.

So averaging just over a goal per game.

Well done Joe Hart for conceding the one goal you'd expect a misfiring Chelsea to score.

Liverpool without Salah don't pose the same threat.

Well done Jordan Pickford for stopping a Liverpool team with no cutting edge.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:20 am

Caernarfon_Claret wrote:If you based England squad selection on one excellent performance you'd have a team full of one cap wonders.

Chelsea currently 11th in form table.

If you based England squad selection on one season wonders like Pope you'd have a team of Jonjo Shelveys, David Bentleys, Francis Jeffers, Michael Johnsons and Danny Cadamarteris.

scouseclaret · Post by **scouseclaret** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:56 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:Great thread on the weekend Pope let one straight through him, Pickford kept a clean sheet against Liverpool and Hart had a worldie against Chelsea.

Burnley fans need to prepare for disappointment.

Strange you imply that Pope was at fault for their goal on Saturday (nobody else seems to think so) yet fail to mention Butland’s non-response to a 30 yard free kick/cross that drifted right past him and into the net?

As for Hart, nobody would dispute that he’s capable of outstanding performances, but the fact is he has become a serial dropper of ******** in recent years and is simply too unreliable.

The only one of the four who hasn’t made a mistake resulting in a goal this season is Nick Pope. (OPTA)

Caernarfon_Claret · Post by **Caernarfon_Claret** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:02 am

So of the four England keepers in the last squad one helps his team to win, two help their team to a draw and one loses.

Surely England want players who are winners.

HiroshimaClaret · Post by **HiroshimaClaret** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:08 am

iFarted69 wrote:One good save in 8 years doesn't really cut it.

Just had the unfortunate pleasure of listening to Joleon Lescott on 606 and his embarrassing `analysis` of why Hart should not only be on the plane to Russia, but actually No.1. I fear this `Hart has experience and has performed consistently at that highest levels of the game` is like rot in wood through the core of the FA, will seep down to Southgate (who to his credit has SO FAR has cast aside some dead wood) and Pope, incredibly, will not make it to the World Cup.

Caernarfon_Claret · Post by **Caernarfon_Claret** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:15 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:If you based England squad selection on one season wonders like Pope you'd have a team of Jonjo Shelveys, David Bentleys, Francis Jeffers, Michael Johnsons and Danny Cadamarteris.

If Joe Hart had been treated the same way other promising English goalkeepers were after they made mistakes at a major tournament he'd never been in the England Squad again.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:20 am

scouseclaret wrote:Strange you imply that Pope was at fault for their goal on Saturday (nobody else seems to think so) yet fail to mention Butland’s non-response to a 30 yard free kick/cross that drifted right past him and into the net?

As for Hart, nobody would dispute that he’s capable of outstanding performances, but the fact is he has become a serial dropper of ******** in recent years and is simply too unreliable.

The only one of the four who hasn’t made a mistake resulting in a goal this season is Nick Pope. (OPTA)

Upthebeehole only likes stats when it suits them, but considering the stats show Pope hasn't thrown one in this season you think he'd be more supportive of Pope.

Caernarfon_Claret · Post by **Caernarfon_Claret** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:24 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:If you based England squad selection on one season wonders like Pope you'd have a team of Jonjo Shelveys, David Bentleys, Francis Jeffers, Michael Johnsons and Danny Cadamarteris.

And Jamie Vardy (so far only one season in league football has he scored more than 20 league goals)

4; 16; 5; 24; 13; 16 (with 6 games to go)

20 in two seasons of Championship football

58 in four seasons of Premier League football

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:27 am

We've discussed OPTA's stats about errors leading to goals before. They're based on misplaced passes, measured in the same way as outfield players, not actual goalkeeping errors.

Otherwise Pope's errors v Leicester, Bournemouth etc would be included. Cup games aren't included, so you won't see his balls up v Man City or him getting megged from 20 yards v Leeds there either.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:27 am

Hart spilling one to Chris Wood the other week would not be classed as a goalkeeping error under OPTA's definition, for example.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:41 am

Forget about stats - just use your eyes.
Hart has been generally sh-it for at least 3 years - look up some of his gaffs for Torino and you can see how shot his confidence is.
Pope has been brilliant for us this year. If a goalkeeper lets in the odd goal through his legs when a striker is thumping the ball at him form 8 yards that is not necessarily his fault. Its actually a bit of luck on the strikers side who is going for power and the keeper is expecting it to be drilled either side of him not straight down the middle.

And people go on about his distribution not being great but he is one of the few keepers this season whose distribution has not led directly to a goal

So then Up Your Own Arsehole - what do you think of Nick Pope ? Poor season ? Not good enough ?

Its hilarious that in the season we are having and the amazing development of players such as Pope and Tarks (and many others) that we have people who can still be negative. What a fin sad life they must lead.

Caernarfon_Claret · Post by **Caernarfon_Claret** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:46 am

Rob Green had experience after the 2010 world cup but only ever played one friendly match after that, surely Hart has made more mistakes than Green did - Hart "Teflon man"

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:55 am

TVC15 wrote:Forget about stats - just use your eyes.
Hart has been generally sh-it for at least 3 years - look up some of his gaffs for Torino and you can see how shot his confidence is.
Pope has been brilliant for us this year. If a goalkeeper lets in the odd goal through his legs when a striker is thumping the ball at him form 8 yards that is not necessarily his fault. Its actually a bit of luck on the strikers side who is going for power and the keeper is expecting it to be drilled either side of him not straight down the middle.

And people go on about his distribution not being great but he is one of the few keepers this season whose distribution has not led directly to a goal

So then Up Your Own Arsehole - what do you think of Nick Pope ? Poor season ? Not good enough ?

Its hilarious that in the season we are having and the amazing development of players such as Pope and Tarks (and many others) that we have people who can still be negative. What a fin sad life they must lead.

Pope's a decent shot stopper who is great on crosses, but his distribution is often to touch rather than a Claret.

International football isn't about defending crosses - the UK's club football is pretty rare in using crosses as a method to try and score goals.

Time and time again England get knocked out of a tournament and the same thing is repeated every single time: that we're not good enough at retaining possession.

A goalkeeper who can retain possession, rather than kicking it to touch, is vital.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:57 am

England get knocked out because successive managers pick the best players, not the best teams.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:03 am

Not as vital as a goalkeeper who can save shots.

Said it loads of times - his distribution is nowhere near as bad as a few people on this board make out.
He does not kick it out of touch "often" at all....again you are just making stuff up to suit your view of him.

Pickford`s distribution is not that great this season based on the games I have seen him play. We already know Hart`s distribution is bang average as that's why Pep let him go and how many times have you seen Butland play it out from the back for Stoke ?!!

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:10 am

TVC15 wrote:Not as vital as a goalkeeper who can save shots.

Jack Butland and Jordan Pickford have both saved more shots than Pope.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:13 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:Jack Butland and Jordan Pickford have both saved more shots than Pope.

Yeh they've both had super seasons !

Milltown1882 · Post by **Milltown1882** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:15 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:Jack Butland and Jordan Pickford have both saved more shots than Pope.

They've also played for about an extra two months

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:15 am

TVC15 wrote:Yeh they've both had super seasons !

Given upthebeeholes recent form, I'm surprised you're engaging in conversation with him.

They're not really interested in a decent discussion and at some point he's likely to backtrack and say he's been on a wind up.

You're probably best just accepting he's a troll and dismiss what he says.

UpTheBeehole wrote:Andre Gray's offside record isn't bad in the slightest

This season he's offside 0.6 times per 90 minutes.

Chris Wood is 1.6 times.

It was similar when he was here. As usual once the Burnley faithful have a boo boy they'll exaggerate everything about it - with Gray it was him being offside.

He wasn't offside more than average.

Taken from the Andre Gray thread....

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:18 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:Jack Butland and Jordan Pickford have both saved more shots than Pope.

What about as a percentage?

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:20 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:Jack Butland and Jordan Pickford have both saved more shots than Pope.

Yes, but do you genuinely believe that a keeper who saves 5 and lets 5 in is more use than a keeper who only faces 8 shots but saves them all?

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:21 am

Milltown1882 wrote:They've also played for about an extra two months

Butland's played 126 minutes more than Pope. So a game and a half.

Pickford's played 4 more games than Pope.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:25 am

Nick Pope plays behind a team who are set up to defend his goal.

Other managers set their teams out to play a bit more, and so their goalkeepers get exposed more often

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:27 am

The shots which filter through to actually reaching Pope are those which haven't been blocked by his defenders.

Ben Mee has blocked 42 shots and Tarkowski has blocked 38.

If they hadn't got in the way, Pope would be a lot more exposed, and would concede much more goals.

Milltown1882 · Post by **Milltown1882** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:30 am

Imagine a team that plays with defenders setting a team up to defend and not concede goals.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:30 am

That's your opinion

Troll

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:30 am

Milltown1882 wrote:Imagine a team that plays with defenders setting a team up to defend and not concede goals.

Stupid new fandangled idea, won't catch on.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:31 am

The obvious answer is for Southgate to take Mee and Tarkowski as well as Pope, but then thats 3 out of 22 spaces taken up just to make up for a goalkeeper's deficiencies

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:32 am

Looking at they way Stones was all at sea recently, I'd say it isn't a bad idea to take 2 actual defenders.

HiroshimaClaret · Post by **HiroshimaClaret** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:43 am

Pope
Walker Tarkowski Mee Maguire Young
Wilshere Chamberlain Henderson
Sterling Alli
Kane

A team that would get `universal` support from all England fans and give 100%. Of course Mee won`t be going but that would give an incredibly solid base for any team.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:53 am

HiroshimaClaret wrote:Pope
Walker Tarkowski Mee Maguire Young
Wilshere Chamberlain Henderson
Sterling Alli
Kane

A team that would get `universal` support from all England fans and give 100%. Of course Mee won`t be going but that would give an incredibly solid base for any team.

I'm sure all England fans would wholeheartedly support England playing with twelve men.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:04 pm

Wilshere would not get universal support. He's a fraud.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:10 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:The shots which filter through to actually reaching Pope are those which haven't been blocked by his defenders.

Ben Mee has blocked 42 shots and Tarkowski has blocked 38.

If they hadn't got in the way, Pope would be a lot more exposed, and would concede much more goals.

But on the other hand, the blocked shots are often th eones from further out. So Pope doesn't get the chance to pad his stats with long range shots which tend to be more saveable.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:16 pm

dsr wrote:But on the other hand, the blocked shots are often th eones from further out. So Pope doesn't get the chance to pad his stats with long range shots which tend to be more saveable.

The complete opposite actually

https://statsbomb.com/2017/02/burnley-d ... fferently/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41670800

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:17 pm

...and this brilliant video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKHwUVYH4hU

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:18 pm

In a nutshell that video explains everything I've been saying.

HiroshimaClaret · Post by **HiroshimaClaret** » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:38 pm

Tall Paul wrote:I'm sure all England fans would wholeheartedly support England playing with twelve men.

Oops!!!!!!!! Time for Plan B!