Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

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Sidney1st
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Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by Sidney1st » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:06 am

It won't happen but surely Dyche or Howe deserve a chance at a top 6 club?
What more do they have to do? Do a Leicester?
Everyone says young English managers should prove themselves by working their way up the leagues. (I'm not talking about Sam, Roy or Pardew but about Howe, Dyche, Johnson, Rowett and Harris!)
Then when they do it that still isn't enough!
In Europe, promising young managers are given chances at big clubs all the time! Pep, Zidane, Klopp, Conte, Emery, Gattuso and Kovac had done nothing better than what Dyche or Howe have done in their equivalent league when given a big job!
Those big clubs could have all gone for a proven winner but they decided to give a chance to a promising young manager!
Why can't PL clubs do that for our young English managers?
Then people wonder why we lack English managers at the highest level?
We need a Rooney Rule for English managers at the highest level in the PL.
Found this quite interesting in the comments section whilst reading an article about Wenger.
It does raise some very good points about the chances handed to younger managers abroad at the perceived bigger clubs compared to the chances of one of the top jobs going to young English managers.

I'm not sure I agree with a Rooney rule, but what will it take for a younger manager to get the chance at the top clubs?

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by Pstotto » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:21 am

Completely disagree with the OP. Brian Clough took two unfancied sides to the top. Dyche will be a Europa league manager next season, so now Burnley is the equivalent of a top six club and one of the few to make a profit.

It's more drivel about trying to unseat the Burnley success, it's more 'top six' brown nosing, who are these sides anyway? Man City were in the third tier not long ago, Chelsea were nobodies without Russian money. Tottenham have never been much of a big club success and haven't won the league since Burnley.

Dyche can do a Ferguson and when he's won a European trophy with Burnley like Ferguson did with Aberdeen and he's about 50 then whatever.

Who gives a f**k about these clubs, let them all die. P**s off all of them.

UTC
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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:27 am

I think there is a big thing overlooked around this subject. Apart from several big clubs like Barca, Madrid, Bayern, PSG etc the Premier league is the richest and best league where everyone wants to manage.

Look at it his way the big six clubs in England is probably the jobs every manage in the world wants apart from maybe 7 or 8 other really big European teams. So with that in mind those jobs are obviously going to go to the top 10-15 managers in the world. If you took away the football teams and just made a list of the top 10 managers in the world would it really be a surprise if people like Howe, Dyche and Hughton wanst in that list?

Whether you like it or not the Premier League is pretty much the universal world league in football so being English is no advantage. If you think someone like Dyche is being overlooked for a top six job then just look at what all the top six managers have achieved in their careers compared to Dyche and if your honest you'll admit that Dyche is miles behind.

The English football league is full of British managers and if they do well like Howe, Dyche, Hughton or older managers like Bruce, Pulis, Moyes, Pardew they will get jobs in the top league. Getting a top six job is another level but if they are good enough over a long enough period of time they will get it

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:52 am

As I said on another thread, the only way Dyche will get into the champions league as a manager is if he takes us there, or takes a chance on a bigger but more underachieving club like Newcastle, Everton, West Ham or Villa where he wouldnt get the same patience.

At the end of this season Arsenal or Chelsea SHOULD take a chance on him. Thankfully they wont. Their loss!

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:55 am

Pstotto wrote:Completely disagree with the OP. Brian Clough took two unfancied sides to the top. Dyche will be a Europa league manager next season, so now Burnley is the equivalent of a top six club and one of the few to make a profit.

It's more drivel about trying to unseat the Burnley success, it's more 'top six' brown nosing, who are these sides anyway? Man City were in the third tier not long ago, Chelsea were nobodies without Russian money. Tottenham have never been much of a big club success and haven't won the league since Burnley.

Dyche can do a Ferguson and when he's won a European trophy with Burnley like Ferguson did with Aberdeen and he's about 50 then whatever.

Who gives a f**k about these clubs, let them all die. P**s off all of them.

UTC
You crack me up. But so true!

Until the Arabs turned up City and Chelsea had won no more league titles than us. Spurs still haven't!

United, Liverpool and Arsenal are the only real giants historically.

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by Vegas Claret » Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:16 am

all Dyche has to do is look at David Moyes

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by KRBFC » Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:49 am

I don't think there's a British manager out there who would beat Allegri, Ancelotti etc to a job for obvious reasons. If you were Man City, why on earth would you take a British manager with;

-Zero experience in the transfer market he would be operating in.

-No experience dealing with agents at that level, no connections in the game.

-No personal connections with the current players.

-No experience at handling world class players

-No experience when the pressure is on to win trophies.

-Never signed a world class player, questionable powers of persuasion.

-No experience when the crowds expect free flowing football.

It wouldn't make sense for a top 6 club to gamble on a rookie when there are proven managers out there who tick boxes. That list above goes for ALL current British managers not just Dyche. It's a completely different game/job at the top, all experience at the bottom counts for nothing. It's no good being great in the transfer market with a £10M budget when you will walk into a job with an unlimited budget and shopping in a whole new market. I think what helps people like Pep, Zidane, Conte, Gattuso etc is they have been historic players, they demand respect from players and are managing players who grew up admiring them play.

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by DCWat » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:54 am

Ferguson, Mourinho, Wenger - a quick three with average at best playing careers. There is some merit in what you say but at the end of the day, they’re managing and dealing with people - be that superstar players, overpaid agents (probably not even the manager these days) or whoever.

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by john'sroseyspecs » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:39 am

I think its getting even harder for young English managers. Look at the Championship and the increasing numbers of foreign managers and owners. Less and less chance of stepping up to manage in the Premier league

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by Rick_Muller » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:39 am

Vegas Claret wrote:all Dyche has to do is look at David Moyes
F’king ‘ell that’s a hell of a punishment... what SD done to deserve that...?
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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:10 pm

KRBFC wrote:I don't think there's a British manager out there who would beat Allegri, Ancelotti etc to a job for obvious reasons. If you were Man City, why on earth would you take a British manager with;

-Zero experience in the transfer market he would be operating in.

-No experience dealing with agents at that level, no connections in the game.

-No personal connections with the current players.

-No experience at handling world class players

-No experience when the pressure is on to win trophies.

-Never signed a world class player, questionable powers of persuasion.

-No experience when the crowds expect free flowing football.

It wouldn't make sense for a top 6 club to gamble on a rookie when there are proven managers out there who tick boxes. That list above goes for ALL current British managers not just Dyche. It's a completely different game/job at the top, all experience at the bottom counts for nothing. It's no good being great in the transfer market with a £10M budget when you will walk into a job with an unlimited budget and shopping in a whole new market. I think what helps people like Pep, Zidane, Conte, Gattuso etc is they have been historic players, they demand respect from players and are managing players who grew up admiring them play.
Agree with some of the points. But how do they get the jobs without the chance? Theyve got to start somewhere. Theyve earnt their chance.

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by Sidney1st » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:14 pm

So young managers in Europe get a chance due to their playing careers at some of the biggest clubs in the world?
Sol Campbell must be a shoe in then for Arsenal..

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by KRBFC » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:19 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Agree with some of the points. But how do they get the jobs without the chance? Theyve got to start somewhere. Theyve earnt their chance.
You either retire as a legendary footballer and get blessed (Zidane, Pep) or take a smaller side to the top (Jose, Fergie). Fergies story is interesting, I didn't know he took Aberdeen to a European trophy amongst numerous other trophies won.

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by KRBFC » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:22 pm

Sidney1st wrote:So young managers in Europe get a chance due to their playing careers at some of the biggest clubs in the world?
Sol Campbell must be a shoe in then for Arsenal..
Why do you think Pep got the job at Barca? sure he did well with the B side but he definitely got the job because of his playing history with Barca. If Zidane was a League 2 level player, would he be managing Real Madrid now? Even to an extent Dyche at Watford, made manager when his manager left. I think playing career is really important, look at Brian Laws, he was never qualified to get a PL job here, ex player...

I wouldn't be surprised to see Vieira or Henry get the Arsenal job....... why? because they're Arsenal legends from their playing days.
Last edited by KRBFC on Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by bob-the-scutter » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:22 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:You crack me up. But so true!

Until the Arabs turned up City and Chelsea had won no more league titles than us. Spurs still haven't!

United, Liverpool and Arsenal are the only real giants historically.
The last time Chelsea actually WON anything was against Dirty Leeds in 1970!

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by KRBFC » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:24 pm

bob-the-scutter wrote:The last time Chelsea actually WON anything was against Dirty Leeds in 1970!
There was me thinking they won the Champions League in 2012 :roll:

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by bob-the-scutter » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:25 pm

KRBFC wrote:There was me thinking they won the Champions League in 2012 :roll:
WON!

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by Sidney1st » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:29 pm

KRBFC wrote:Why do you think Pep got the job at Barca? sure he did well with the B side but he definitely got the job because of his playing history with Barca. If Zidane was a League 2 level player, would he be managing Real Madrid now? Even to an extent Dyche at Watford, made manager when his manager left. I think playing career is really important, look at Brian Laws, he was never qualified to get a PL job here, ex player...

I wouldn't be surprised to see Vieira or Henry get the Arsenal job....... why? because they're Arsenal legends from their playing days.
In all fairness Viera has been coaching and then managing for a while via City so he has some experience that others won't of how a bigger club works.
Henry is with Belgium so he has none.

Pep got the job at Barca for more than just his playing career though, he clearly showed an aptitude for it, partly due to Cruyff.
Successful playing career doesn't make them suitable for top jobs, Tony Adams being a fine example.
Paul Ince another.

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by Spijed » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:36 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:If you think someone like Dyche is being overlooked for a top six job then just look at what all the top six managers have achieved in their careers compared to Dyche and if your honest you'll admit that Dyche is miles behind.
Fergie was miles behind when he joined Utd on that basis but he's arguably the greatest ever manager.

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by Spijed » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:37 pm

KRBFC wrote:I don't think there's a British manager out there who would beat Allegri, Ancelotti etc to a job for obvious reasons. If you were Man City, why on earth would you take a British manager with;

-Zero experience in the transfer market he would be operating in.

-No experience dealing with agents at that level, no connections in the game.

-No personal connections with the current players.

-No experience at handling world class players

-No experience when the pressure is on to win trophies.

-Never signed a world class player, questionable powers of persuasion.

-No experience when the crowds expect free flowing football.

It wouldn't make sense for a top 6 club to gamble on a rookie when there are proven managers out there who tick boxes. That list above goes for ALL current British managers not just Dyche. It's a completely different game/job at the top, all experience at the bottom counts for nothing. It's no good being great in the transfer market with a £10M budget when you will walk into a job with an unlimited budget and shopping in a whole new market. I think what helps people like Pep, Zidane, Conte, Gattuso etc is they have been historic players, they demand respect from players and are managing players who grew up admiring them play.
And what about Fergie when he went to united?

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:45 pm

Spijed wrote:Fergie was miles behind when he joined Utd on that basis but he's arguably the greatest ever manager.
Youre talking about a completely different era of football which is incomparable. English football at the time was nowhere near as big or multinational as today. In them days British clubs were managed by British people and Fergie was one of the best British managers available with 3 Scottish League titles, 3 Scottish Cups and a Cup Winners Cup

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by KRBFC » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:51 pm

Sidney1st wrote:In all fairness Viera has been coaching and then managing for a while via City so he has some experience that others won't of how a bigger club works.
Henry is with Belgium so he has none.

Pep got the job at Barca for more than just his playing career though, he clearly showed an aptitude for it, partly due to Cruyff.
Successful playing career doesn't make them suitable for top jobs, Tony Adams being a fine example.
Paul Ince another.
It doesn't make them suitable but it helps them get an opportunity they wouldn't get otherwise.

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by KRBFC » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:53 pm

Spijed wrote:And what about Fergie when he went to united?
He started off at the bottom in Scottish football, then went and took Aberdeen to a European trophy, multiple domestic trophies and big wins over teams like Hamburg, Bayern etc.

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by Sidney1st » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:54 pm

KRBFC wrote:It doesn't make them suitable but it helps them get an opportunity they wouldn't get otherwise.
Yet Jose and Villa-Boas got an opportunity at a big club in Portugal based on ?
That's my point, our big clubs aren't really interested in the younger British managers.
Could Dyche manage the egos of big named players?
Yes, or he'd ship them out and find players willing to do what he wants, like any good manager does.
Could Howe do it?
He cleared out our dressing room of egos when he took over from Laws.

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by Sidney1st » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:55 pm

KRBFC wrote:He started off at the bottom in Scottish football, then went and took Aberdeen to a European trophy, multiple domestic trophies and big wins over teams like Hamburg, Bayern etc.
You've just done some quick studying :lol:

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by Spijed » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:56 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Youre talking about a completely different era of football which is incomparable. English football at the time was nowhere near as big or multinational as today. In them days British clubs were managed by British people and Fergie was one of the best British managers available with 3 Scottish League titles, 3 Scottish Cups and a Cup Winners Cup
But sadly, had Fergie done the same with Aberdeen now, you and others would be saying he wasn't good enough, simply because he's British.

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by KRBFC » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:57 pm

Sidney1st wrote:You've just done some quick studying :lol:
Yup, I admitted further up I didn't know Fergie had won a European trophy at Aberdeen. :D
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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by KRBFC » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:59 pm

Spijed wrote:But sadly, had Fergie done the same with Aberdeen now, you and others would be saying he wasn't good enough, simply because he's British.
If Derek Mcinnes wins the SPL, League Cup and Europa League next season I don't think anybody could claim he's not good enough. Dyche/Howe's opportunities at managing Champions League sides will come when they reach that level. Being British has absolutely nothing to do with it and is about as ridiculous as the Sol Campbell ''black people don't get jobs for being black''. I'm British myself, certainly not anti-British.

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:08 pm

Spijed wrote:But sadly, had Fergie done the same with Aberdeen now, you and others would be saying he wasn't good enough, simply because he's British.
Its a different era if a manager did that with Aberdeen today they would get potentially get a job like Leicester, Stoke, Palace or maybe Everton. If they then excelled enough in that job like Moyes did at Everton and Rodgers did at Swansea they might get an opportunity at a big club but they would still be up against all the best managers in the world.

My point was that if the top 6 clubs in England are considered one of the best 15 managerial jobs in the world then to get the job you need to be one of the top 20 managers in the world. It is not that British managers are being overlooked for being British it is more they are up against the whole world to get those jobs.

Another thing that might make things tougher for young British managers is that because we have 6 massive clubs then they will usually take up all the European places so managers getting experience at European football is difficult. Compare that to managers in a lot of other lesser European countries where they can get one of the top jobs in their country and then have the opportunity to do something special in Europe and build their CV and reputation like Jose did with Porto

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by Stayingup » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:18 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Agree with some of the points. But how do they get the jobs without the chance? Theyve got to start somewhere. Theyve earnt their chance.
Course they have earned their chance. If you follow that logic young players would never get a start either. Big clubs have connections right across the spectrum and I doubt the manager ever speaks to an agent or player.

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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by KRBFC » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:45 pm

Stayingup wrote:Course they have earned their chance. If you follow that logic young players would never get a start either. Big clubs have connections right across the spectrum and I doubt the manager ever speaks to an agent or player.
The manager doesn't speak to a player before signing him???? Was Dyche's dinner date with Barton an omelette in silence?
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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by Sidney1st » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:57 pm

KRBFC wrote:The manager doesn't speak to a player before signing him???? Was Dyche's dinner date with Barton an omelette in silence?
It was part of a "who blinks first" game of course.

Barton lost, had to sign for us as a result :lol:
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Re: Availability of the top jobs for young English managers.

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:13 pm

Pstotto wrote:Completely disagree with the OP. Brian Clough took two unfancied sides to the top. Dyche will be a Europa league manager next season, so now Burnley is the equivalent of a top six club and one of the few to make a profit.
UTC
Last season all 20 Premier League clubs made an operating profit and all 20 are expected to do so again last year - the overall averages for wages was about 57% of turnover. The days of clubs making huge losses are almost over with the new financial rules especially the ones on limiting wages rises to a small increase if the funds from non-media sources haven't increased accordingly. This is why clubs are keen on building sponsorship income, Utd lead the way in this country but Bayern are the best in the world at it, PSG meanwhile are being investigated by UEFA for having sponsorships that are over generous

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