British holiday makers to pay for EU visas

[thatdberight]

You're moving the goalposts. I didn't suggest anything that you have just written.
All I am saying is that things have worked pretty well - though obviously not without problems - over the past few decades. If we start having a complex visa / work permit system within the EU then it will be wide open to abuse, and most likely there will be many innocent victims, whilst others will exploit it for their own ends.
Not sure why you would single out Serbia. Like India it's not in the EU. The issue of how many workers can come to the UK will only arise when we try to conclude a trade deal with these countries. This is one of the real challenges that we are up against if we try to negotiate a deal with a huge market like India

We're clearly at cross purposes. We are leaving the EU so it's not an option to do what has worked well before (in some opinions). We will have a work permit system of some degree of complexity with EU countries and vice versa. People will break those laws. Such is the way of both people and laws. The issue of how many people (and on what basis) people from the UK can work in the EU and vice versa remains to be decided as we uncouple. While some people, yourself included maybe, might be able to skirt round the rules within a small company/self employed scenario, many, many more will not have that option.

[IanMcL]

We did not have a visa before the Common Market, so why now? Her Britannic Majesty used to get us to most places.

[CrosspoolClarets]

We will not end up with a visa need to visit EU countries. It will be negotiated away as part of a FTA.

This is all a bit of silly buggers as usual. Barnier just thinks 10% of Brits are daft enough to be taken in by it and so influence the polling, so it is another shot at getting us to stay in, or nearly in, long term.

Nothing to see here.

[ClaretAndJew]

We will not end up with a visa need to visit EU countries. It will be negotiated away as part of a FTA.

This is all a bit of silly buggers as usual. Barnier just thinks 10% of Brits are daft enough to be taken in by it and so influence the polling, so it is another shot at getting us to stay in, or nearly in, long term.

Nothing to see here.

Source?

[Paul Waine]

ETIAS - The European Travel Information and Authorisation System April 2018

https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/sites ... ias_en.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"In November 2016, the Commission proposed to create a European Travel Information and Authorisation System (ETIAS) to strengthen security of travel to the Schengen area under visa-free agreements. The ETIAS will carry out pre-travel screening for security and migration risks of visa-exempt visitors. This will help to identify any possible security concerns prior to their travel to the Schengen area, thus contributing to more efficient management of the EU’s external borders and improved internal security."

And....

Political agreement on the European Travel Information and Authorisation System (ETIAS)

Following the compromise agreement in December, the European Parliament (LIBE Committee) and the Council (COREPER) yesterday reached a final political agreement on the Commission's proposal from November 2016 to establish a European Travel Information and Authorisation System (ETIAS). Welcoming the agreement, First Vice-President Frans Timmermans, Commissioner for Migration, Home Affairs and Citizenship Dimitris Avramopoulos and Commissioner for the Security Union Julian King yesterday said:
"Today's agreement on the European Travel Information and Authorisation System (ETIAS) is an important step towards building a safer and more secure Europe for our citizens. The Commission welcomes the efforts of the European Parliament and the Council to finalise this priority file, as agreed in the Joint Declaration of Legislative Priorities for 2018-2019. Importantly, it symbolises the closure of another security information gap at EU level. We now call on both the European Parliament and the Council to formally adopt this agreement.
We need to know who is crossing our borders. This new system, once operational, will carry out pre-travel screening for security and migration risks of travellers benefiting from visa-free access to the Schengen area. By cross-checking visa-exempt travellers against our information systems for borders, security and migration, the ETIAS will help us identify anyone who may pose a security or migration risk before he or she even reaches the EU border. The process for travellers to obtain an authorisation will be affordable, simple and fast and will always be carried out in full respect of fundamental rights and EU data protection rules. The ETIAS will also help us to strengthen and safeguard mobility for visa-free travellers who do not pose risks, while identifying those who do.
Over the past three years, we have been collectively delivering the building blocks for a genuine and effective Security Union, and the ETIAS is a key part of this work. At the same time, Europe's openness and mobility cannot and should not come at the price of security. Our work is not yet complete. We all need to continue our efforts to build a safer Europe – a Europe that protects."

---------------------------------------------

Anyone who is interested can read the rest.....

I've added the underlines above.

ETIAS sounds to be very similar to the USA ESTA. ETIAS applies to people travelling to EU who hold passports from non-EU member countries that are not subject to visa requirements.

[Lancasterclaret]

Yup, that same transitional agreement also includes full membership of the customs union between NI and the Republic, bits that the current govt are saying is untrue (in the event of our solution (which we still haven't come up with, and showing no sign of coming up with either) not working.

If thats not set in stone, then neither is this sadly.

[Paul Waine]

Yup, that same transitional agreement also includes full membership of the customs union between NI and the Republic, bits that the current govt are saying is untrue (in the event of our solution (which we still haven't come up with, and showing no sign of coming up with either) not working.

If thats not set in stone, then neither is this sadly.

I think it is pretty amazing that a political group is seeking to carve out part of another sovereign state.

Whatever else we think about the EU, does trying to split off NI from the rest of the UK sound like the promotion of "peace in Europe?"

However, this thread is all about the EU's introduction of ETIAS. This seems to be a very sensible approach to security, no more, no less.

[Heaton's Gloves]

£6 for a EU visa?
Sounds like a good trade off. The beleaguered UK tax payer will no longer have to foot the bill for Spain's silky smooth roads. Though it is frustrating that we will continue to be clambering out of potholes for the next decade .

Well said! A lot on here just don’t get that.....bloody frustrating!

[deanothedino]

An ESTA isn't a visa... Hint, it's in the name

If you aren't eligible for an ESTA you'll need a B-2... it costs $160 to apply for one and that is non-refundable. There's a number of reasons people from ESTA eligible countries may be ineligible and many of those wouldn't stop them getting a B-2 after interview.

[Heaton's Gloves]

Worked pretty well? Ha ha ha. You have seriously got to be joking, right?

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

Only 6 Euros!!!
I'd make it 60 Euros, that might mean I don't have to speak Spanish when I go for a walk in Calella in the Summer to stop the guiris talking to me.

[dsr]

Assuming that Paul Waine's link is referring to the same thing, the Brexit vote made no difference at all because it would apply to countries outside the Schengen zone, which we already are. Also, it wouldn't affect the Irish border because RoI is outside the Schengen zone too - though of course Ireland doesn't have the same weight behind it as the UK, so once the UK is gone, Ireland may be dragged (presumably kicking and screaming) into Schengen against their will - if only to back up the EU case that a hard border is essential.

[Tribesmen]

To be honest this will roll on until March , but the EU wants a soft border and all the people in the Island of Ireland wants freedom of travel nobody wants to go back to borders / checkpoints / Army and Bullshit .
If you want a border it should be at airports and ports . It's a sort of the north and south is no mans land until you leave .

[KeighleyClaret]

Well done for confusing holiday travel and the right to work. I might offer you a job and tell you you're on holiday all the time so I don't have to pay you.

Well I haven't missed the point. When someone foreign turns up at out border the Leavers wanted to be able to stop them coming in in case they worked. There was no distinction between visiting and working. You might go to Spain and work there yourself. As I said, we have got what people voted for. Its only the first of many annoying consequences of Brexit.

[KeighleyClaret]

ETIAS - The European Travel Information and Authorisation System April 2018

https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/sites ... ias_en.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"In November 2016, the Commission proposed to create a European Travel Information and Authorisation System (ETIAS) to strengthen security of travel to the Schengen area under visa-free agreements. The ETIAS will carry out pre-travel screening for security and migration risks of visa-exempt visitors. This will help to identify any possible security concerns prior to their travel to the Schengen area, thus contributing to more efficient management of the EU’s external borders and improved internal security."

ETIAS sounds to be very similar to the USA ESTA. ETIAS applies to people travelling to EU who hold passports from non-EU member countries that are not subject to visa requirements.

But we aren't and never have been in the Schengen area, so I don't think this applies.

[Rowls]

Any proof of these novel solutions?

Only reports from the press. Obviously you're not going to get proof of these because these are leaks and as such are unsourced. I trust the journalists and publication involved.

However, these reports are widespread and reported everywhere. Some publications report news no matter what. Others only report either pro-Brexit or anti-Brexit reports.

If you read a respectable pro-Brexit outlet you'll have been informed that British negotiators have had a virtual monopoly on making the running in these negotiations whereas the EU are simply playing hardball.

That is widely acknowledged on both sides of the debate.

hmmmm..... nope.
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/brexi ... sh-border/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That states Briatin hasn't consulted independent companies who manufacture technology. This is not the same thing as raising solutions in negotiations.

No failure of logic. We either have some form of Customs union / arrangement, which May continues to rule out, or we revert to WTO rules.

No, those are not the only two options. We can have a trade agreement which is not a customs union.

[Rowls]

Can you point us to the detail on these novel solutions?

No you'll have search out articles on this yourself.

[thatdberight]

Well I haven't missed the point. When someone foreign turns up at out border the Leavers wanted to be able to stop them coming in in case they worked. There was no distinction between visiting and working. You might go to Spain and work there yourself. As I said, we have got what people voted for. Its only the first of many annoying consequences of Brexit.

No. You really have missed the point - not just now but apparently during the referendum. At no stage was it part of any Brexit plan, policy or pitch that we would make it harder for people to visit on holiday. The issue is entirely about them working.

[Commy]

We were one of the first to charge people. An exit charge is included in our holiday price. And the only reason Turkey charge us is because we started charging them and they didn't like it.

[thatdberight]

We were one of the first to charge people. An exit charge is included in our holiday price. And the only reason Turkey charge us is because we started charging them and they didn't like it.

That's not right. There have always been visa costs and they aren't related to taxes.

[Lancasterclaret]

We can have a trade agreement which is not a customs union.

Rowls, I am not disagreeing with you but I think this is the issue that Brexiteers have right there.

They think because we are fixated on the trade deals after Brexit, then the EU must be. They are not, they are fixated on the EU member issues first, which in this case is Ireland, and Ireland is (rightly) worried by the UK position (which if people are being honest with themselves, isn't looking too good and at times looks completely shambolic because of the lack of preparation done) and at the moment what Ireland wants is what the EU want.

I'd recommend less talk about Ireland leaving the EU (not going to happen) or Ireland joining the UK (how anyone even mentioned this one without being laughed out of town is a real sign of the times) and more talk on calming Irelands fears, and hence the EUs.

That isn't going to happen until (and as I keep saying sadly) people start dealing with the realities rather than the ficton*

*but that was promised to the voters before the referendum, and this constant attempt to square an impossible circle is seriously damaging us

[nil_desperandum]

No. You really have missed the point - not just now but apparently during the referendum. At no stage was it part of any Brexit plan, policy or pitch that we would make it harder for people to visit on holiday. The issue is entirely about them working.

But as I already pointed out - with an example - it's virtually impossible to prove in some cases why someone is crossing the border, and the Windrush scenario playing out demonstrates that the Home Office is not fit for purpose when it comes to tackling who should and shouldn't be here.
It's massively complicated with many firms having offices all over the EU, and workers travelling between branches (inc. non-EU UK). You could have 2 employees who have grown up living next door to each other working in the same job for the same company. The first a non- EU citizen, (British) would have restricted travel to go back and forth to work, but his neighbour who happens to be Irish could travel freely. This has all sorts of implications, and - as always happens, people will find ways (legal and illegal) around it, (travelling in both directions), no matter how many resources we put into "policing" it.

However you look at it, any restriction of workers rights will place our young people at a disadvantage compared to all the freedoms and opportunities we have enjoyed over the past few decades, and if there is one thing that Windrush should teach us, it is that we should be careful how we go about this sort of thing.

[Devils_Advocate]

No. You really have missed the point - not just now but apparently during the referendum. At no stage was it part of any Brexit plan, policy or pitch that we would make it harder for people to visit on holiday. The issue is entirely about them working.

There was a Brexit plan, policy and pitch!!!!

[Greenmile]

No you'll have search out articles on this yourself.

They don’t exist, do they Rowls?

Edit - I mean the “novel solutions”. I’m sure there’s the odd Express article which says we’ve done all the work and it’s just those nasty Europeans ruining everything again.

[thatdberight]

But as I already pointed out - with an example - it's virtually impossible to prove in some cases why someone is crossing the border, and the Windrush scenario playing out demonstrates that the Home Office is not fit for purpose when it comes to tackling who should and shouldn't be here.
It's massively complicated with many firms having offices all over the EU, and workers travelling between branches (inc. non-EU UK). You could have 2 employees who have grown up living next door to each other working in the same job for the same company. The first a non- EU citizen, (British) would have restricted travel to go back and forth to work, but his neighbour who happens to be Irish could travel freely. This has all sorts of implications, and - as always happens, people will find ways (legal and illegal) around it, (travelling in both directions), no matter how many resources we put into "policing" it.

However you look at it, any restriction of workers rights will place our young people at a disadvantage compared to all the freedoms and opportunities we have enjoyed over the past few decades, and if there is one thing that Windrush should teach us, it is that we should be careful how we go about this sort of thing.

I genuinely don't understand your issue other than, unfortunately like many who voted to remain, a re-run of points already made and voted on. The answer to whatever depth of problems the Home Office may have is not to tear down the borders. Your point about "not knowing" why people are coming applies already to the millions of Americans, Turks, Serbs, Russians, Chinese, Nigerians and Indians (and the rest) who come here every year. You never go as far as saying it explicitly but your attitude does seem to be that this border control lark is very difficult so just let's give up on it entirely.
Yes, you're right, the situation is changing as far as work opportunities are concerned; that's what the country voted for. Analogies to the treatment of people who came from the Commonwealth in the 1960s seen a little stretched.

[Paul Waine]

But we aren't and never have been in the Schengen area, so I don't think this applies.

My understanding it that EU's ETIAS applies to all passport holders of countries that have the rights to travel to EU countries (and non-EU countries that are also in Schengen) without applying for a visa.

These aren't rules that are being introduced to apply to the UK only. They are not in any way a result of the Brexit vote.

Agree, what I'm not clear on is whether the rules just apply to the countries in the Schengen zone, or will also apply to all EU member states.

[Paul Waine]

Seem to be some confusion in the posts about (1) visiting a country on holiday or any other "social purpose:" (2) visiting a country on behalf of your UK employer as part of your UK job; (3) visiting/moving to a country to live but not work; (4) moving to a country to work in that country, be employed or self-employed in that country, pay taxes in that country and claim benefits in that country.

Most of my working life (40+ years) has included travel to many other countries on behalf of my UK employer. This has included countries that don't require visas for visitors and countries that do require visas for visitors. The USA, under it's "visa waiver program" was always interested in why I was visiting, but before they introduced their ETSA there were no other requirements. People's Republic of China, India, Kazakstan, (from a quick flick thru the pages of my passport) required me to apply for a visa before I travelled. It would have been the same whether I was visiting for holiday or working for my UK employer.

When I went to live and work in (a) the Netherlands (before EU single market) and (b) New York, different rules applied. I required a work permit.

Yes, Brexit may result in change to UK citizens right to move to and work in EU member states - and similarly, may do the same for citizens of EU member states wanting to live in/work in UK.

However, whatever the new brexit/EU rules will be, they will not change the freedom of movement relationship between UK and Republic of Ireland which have prevailed sine 1921 (or whatever the exact date is).

[martin_p]

They don’t exist, do they Rowls?

Edit - I mean the “novel solutions”. I’m sure there’s the odd Express article which says we’ve done all the work and it’s just those nasty Europeans ruining everything again.

Of course they don’t. That’s why so many people asked him for the information.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

Isn't there some way they could make it free for the people who voted remain and double for the Brexiters?

[bfcjg]

Get a Facebook campaign going along the lines of but a visa stop tipping. The holiday resort MEP's will soon get the parliament to change policy when the pressure from voters gets going.

[Greenmile]

Of course they don’t. That’s why so many people asked him for the information.

To be honest, my original question was entirely genuine, but Rowls’ weird evasive replies made it pretty obvious these “novel solutions” exist solely in the fevered imaginations of some of the true Brexit believers.