Can we break into the top 6?

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:43 am

Thankfully it doesn't really matter what you're thinking or suggesting.

Where would he go though is probably the more important question.

Also, who would replace him?
He gives us goals, a solid presence up front and doesn't appear to disrupt the team when he isn't playing.

Those are difficult to replace, especially for a reasonable price.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:43 am

Lauren12 wrote:AC: The aim must be to become Champions surely?
Your aim must be to talk sense one day, surely?

Of course the aim/target is to be champions. Otherwise, why bother being a football club at all? It's always the aim for any club - is it realistic for it to happen any time soon? Nope. Should the club's aim to eventually get there? Damn right.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:47 am

Vokes is a fine player who is not getting sufficient game time for his development.
He may be content to sit on the bench with occasional starts but I guess he knows he will stagnate doing that.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:01 pm

So who's going to buy him then, because so far to date no one has tried or enquired that I'm aware of?

Who would replace him?

Plus what sort of budget you looking at to do it?
Wood took to the PL far easier than some of us probably expected but he cost circa £18 million, or will do.

Vokes cost us a minute fraction of that and has rarely let us down when he's fit in either the championship or the PL.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:09 pm

I’ve no idea who is going to buy him but a relegated Premier League side might be interested and yes it will certainly cost us to replace him if he leaves, although I fancy we won’t replace him like for like.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:26 pm

ablueclaret wrote:I’ve no idea who is going to buy him but a relegated Premier League side might be interested and yes it will certainly cost us to replace him if he leaves, although I fancy we won’t replace him like for like.

A championship club might well be interested but it's irrelevant because he wouldn't drop down a league.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:36 am

The idea players or managers won’t drop down a division to enhance there careers is wrong, it really depends just how keen players are to be playing.
For someone like Sam I would suggest it vital that he is playing more than he does at present and if we sign Jay I would fancy he will be on his way.

LoveCurryPies · Post by **LoveCurryPies** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:12 am

The 12 week injury we experienced at the start if the year cost us a top 6 place. I think we need 2 or 3 strong signings and then it's all about team spirit and determination. Under Sean our players have been united, happy and gave all they could. If we carry that drive into next season and with fewer injuries then why shouldn't we finish in the top 6? Personally, another top 10 finish will be fabulous.

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:13 am

vokes took a throw in once, maybe it was that game.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:41 am

Ye of little faith, SAM looked a natural wide left, though probably not now.

Zesty · Post by **Zesty** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:26 pm

Our main and most important aim is staying in this division. Then we can build on that achievement.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:05 pm

Zesty wrote:Our main and most important aim is staying in this division. Then we can build on that achievement.

We've stayed up twice. I no longer see that as our main target.

JTClaret · Post by **JTClaret** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:29 pm

Next season will be back to the 'one game at a time' that everybody drilled themselves with a couple of years ago.

We will be relegation candidates next season, although less so.
Plus, if Dyche was to go it would have a feel of everything falling apart.

Can we break the top 6? Yes. Will we? I very very very much doubt it.
If next season we stop up, have a run in Europe, and get a good cup run, I'd be one very proud Burnley fan

JTClaret · Post by **JTClaret** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:30 pm

FactualFrank wrote:We've stayed up twice. I no longer see that as our main target.

It has to be our main target... because it has to be our 'first' target.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:34 pm

Can we break into the top 6 - yes.
Legally and without a crow bar - no

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:42 pm

ablueclaret wrote:I fancy like all Cup competitions SD won’t be taking it too seriously,

What? If I thought that was the case I would fancy sacking him and I don't think he will think the same as you. It's Europe for goodness sake, we should be pulling out all the stops to be as good as we can instead of meekly saying 'we need to put survival first'.

Let's have some bloody ambition at the club, we might not qualify for Europe again in years (hopefully we will though). I think some people on here think we should write to UEFA and say 'could you take us out of the hat please, I don't think we'll bother'. Football isn't just about PL survival, it's so much more than that, and I for one would put a serious attempt at winning the Europa (unlikely as it may seem) at the top of that list.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:04 pm

If Dyche wants a job at a bigger club he will need to do something in a cup competition, domestic or European.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:12 pm

JTClaret wrote:It has to be our main target... because it has to be our 'first' target.

I disagree. It was our main target when we came up. And it was our main target last year because we narrowly avoided going down. We finished 7th this season and in Europe. I'm thinking overall our goal post has now moved. It's gone from staying up, to a top 10 finish, keep our best players and improve the depth of the squad.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:15 pm

It's always going to be about hitting 40 points first.

Once we've done that then the target changes, like it probably did this year.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:17 pm

FactualFrank wrote:We've stayed up twice. I no longer see that as our main target.

And? Stoke stayed up for 10 seasons, lost focus and got relegated. Staying up will always be the priority if we want a club like ours to survive.

Zesty · Post by **Zesty** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:19 pm

FactualFrank wrote:We've stayed up twice. I no longer see that as our main target.

Of course the main target is staying in the Premier League, after that is met then we can push on.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:32 pm

I think we'll comfortably stay up. I don't see it as our main target.

Now, back on topic - can we break into the top 6? Not at the moment. There's a gap the size of the English channel between the top 6 and the rest of the Premier League. But I think we're improving quicker than some of the top 6, so in a few seasons who knows.

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:36 pm

ablueclaret wrote:Not sure I agree with you on that one DJ although it is an argument that can be made. Yes I was saying one of the promoted sides might be the one to break into the top 6 but I fancy that will depend on recruitment and retention.
I always believe a good attacking side has a real chance of doing well because of the 3 points for a win, and both Wolves and Fulham have that capacity.

Correct up to a point but teams that attack in the PL have to be exceptionally good because they are left open to conceding goals. If a promoted team comes up and has pretentions to play attacking football they will have to invest massively in my opinion in order to even think about getting away with it. Historically, not just in the PL but anywhere and at any time, the most successful sides have been built on defence, and that is what we are good at.

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:45 pm

Spijed wrote:We shouldn't even think about competing for a top six spot.

If we do we'll end up in financial difficulties. Look at Bolton, Portsmouth, Sunderland, Blackburn etc. Get ideas above your station and it will soon unravel.

Swansea were doing brilliantly. They had a certain style of football, won the League cup and all was well. Their owner then decided to sell to a bunch of Americans and the wheels fell off!

If you are in any competition in any sport then your aim should always be to win it, however impossible that may seem. If that isn't the aim why are you in it? Just to make more and more money? If all we want out of PL membership every season is to 'survive' every season then I'd sooner be in the Championship battling away at the top than grubbing around just surviving in order to earn lots of money for the club. What's the point in that? I think many these days think success in football is how much money you earn rather than actually WINNING anything, surely that can't be right?

Blyclaret · Post by **Blyclaret** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:51 pm

For a start I think we had an unbelievable season this year.
One that I don’t think we will ever repeat.
Games we won with less than 30% possession
How many 1 0 wins. Lucky wins lucky draws.
I think we will struggle next season.
Playing in Europe may be the straw that broke the camels back
And a step too far for us.
Thinking about the top 6 is laughable.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:01 pm

houseboy wrote:If you are in any competition in any sport then your aim should always be to win it, however impossible that may seem. If that isn't the aim why are you in it? Just to make more and more money? If all we want out of PL membership every season is to 'survive' every season then I'd sooner be in the Championship battling away at the top than grubbing around just surviving in order to earn lots of money for the club. What's the point in that? I think many these days think success in football is how much money you earn rather than actually WINNING anything, surely that can't be right?

So how can we compete if we don't have the resources? Start throwing money around that we don't have?

That's what happened to the likes of Portsmouth!

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:51 pm

Spijed wrote:So how can we compete if we don't have the resources? Start throwing money around that we don't have?

That's what happened to the likes of Portsmouth!

Don't get me wrong mate I'm not suggesting we start throwing money around with gay abandon, that's not what I mean. I'm talking about attitudes. When you enter a competition your aim should always be to be the best that you can regardless of your ability or resources, and I would never advocate putting the clubs finances at risk. What we should be doing is BELIEVING anything is possible. That belief is in very short supply among some on here. Are we going to win the PL anytime soon? No I don't think so. Can we finish in a respectable position? Yes, we just have. Do I want us to be the best we can in every competition in order to maybe win something? Yes. Do I think we should field weakened sides in cups in order to 'survive' in the PL? No I don't and I don't think anyone should. We have a decent side capable of winning a trophy (a cup competition) and if we are going to prioritise at all I think it should be that which is something we can realistically win. PL survival is what it is and I certainly wouldn't want a relegation but if it meant having a PL struggle in order to pick up silverware elsewhere then I think that is a price worth paying.

I happen to believe we CAN give all cup competitions a good go whilst maintaining our PL status. However you look at it we were better than 13 other clubs in the PL last season, and by some way at that.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:33 pm

houseboy wrote:Don't get me wrong mate I'm not suggesting we start throwing money around with gay abandon, that's not what I mean. I'm talking about attitudes. When you enter a competition your aim should always be to be the best that you can regardless of your ability or resources, and I would never advocate putting the clubs finances at risk. What we should be doing is BELIEVING anything is possible. That belief is in very short supply among some on here. Are we going to win the PL anytime soon? No I don't think so. Can we finish in a respectable position? Yes, we just have. Do I want us to be the best we can in every competition in order to maybe win something? Yes. Do I think we should field weakened sides in cups in order to 'survive' in the PL? No I don't and I don't think anyone should. We have a decent side capable of winning a trophy (a cup competition) and if we are going to prioritise at all I think it should be that which is something we can realistically win. PL survival is what it is and I certainly wouldn't want a relegation but if it meant having a PL struggle in order to pick up silverware elsewhere then I think that is a price worth paying.

I happen to believe we CAN give all cup competitions a good go whilst maintaining our PL status. However you look at it we were better than 13 other clubs in the PL last season, and by some way at that.

Admirable as your views are I think one word needs to be added - 'Realism'.

For example, should Ashley Barnes aspire to be as good as Lionel Messi or be realistic and accept he never can be as good but create a nice career for himself, which he has done?

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:37 pm

Spijed wrote:So how can we compete if we don't have the resources? Start throwing money around that we don't have?

That's what happened to the likes of Portsmouth!

Portsmouth were managed by Arry who threw wages at his little collection of regular signings and some other atrocious ones.
Yes they got a cup from it but not for one minute will anyone suggest we splurge money like them.

With our current transfer policy we've managed a highly respectable 7th place in the PL and if we hadn't had that poor run after Xmas we possibly could've ended up in the top 6.

More of that transfer policy and we will be fine.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:39 pm

It seems myself and houseboy are on the same page. If anybody thinks we shouldn't have the ultimate aim of winning the cup or winning the Premier League, then I'd give up now. It has to be the goal of any club. Otherwise, why bother?

What realism does is it makes the target a long term one, as opposed to short term - what it doesn't do is completely rule out the goal full stop. If you do that, there's no point bothering.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:48 pm

FactualFrank wrote:It seems myself and houseboy are on the same page. If anybody thinks we shouldn't have the ultimate aim of winning the cup or winning the Premier League, then I'd give up now. It has to be the goal of any club. Otherwise, why bother?

What realism does is it makes the target a long term one, as opposed to short term - what it doesn't do is completely rule out the goal full stop. If you do that, there's no point bothering.

Maybe replace “aim” with wish.
I don’t think it was Leicester’s aim to win The Premier League before they won it - but as the season progressed it gradually went from a dream to more of a reality. I would be amazed if anybody at the club before that season said it was the aim of the club to win the league - and I think it’s the same at Burnley.

There is nothing Burnley are doing as a club which would suggest that an objective or target of the club is to win the league. That does not mean on the very small chance it came along that we would not want it - it just means that we have other more realistic aims which we can target by doing certain things and spending £x amount on players, infrastructure etc.

The realism is that will very likely only take us so far - but right now it is achieving our aims and objectives. If we don’t finish in the top 6 next year I doubt very much that will equate to not achieving our aims as a club

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:49 pm

Realistically? No!

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:00 pm

Quite honestly, we'll be doing well to stay out of the bottom 6.

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:15 pm

In answer to the OP, I’d just be delighted to stay out of the BOTTOM six.

Edit. Beat me to it Bill.

Bfcboyo · Post by **Bfcboyo** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:38 pm

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:39 pm

Maybe be it’s the realism that gives us the chance.

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:01 pm

not a cat in hells chance of us being top six.

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:02 pm

next season will be tough as usual, we will survive it, but probably 15th spot.

Bfcboyo · Post by **Bfcboyo** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:20 pm

ablueclaret wrote:Maybe be it’s the realism that gives us the chance.

Maybe be its the work rate that may just keep us up there ablueboy

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:26 pm

TVC15 wrote:Maybe replace “aim” with wish.

No, because that's the difference between believing and thinking, "well - maybe".

Each fan is different, but if you're in a competition, you can win it. Even a club in League 2 will have their goal of getting promotions and getting into the Premier League. That is surely the target for any professional football club. Or perhaps I'm just more competitive than some other people.

Some people will say 17th will do. For me, that ship has sailed and we're aiming for higher results.

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:32 pm

FactualFrank wrote:No, because that's the difference between believing and thinking, "well - maybe".

Each fan is different, but if you're in a competition, you can win it. Even a club in League 2 will have their goal of getting promotions and getting into the Premier League. That is surely the target for any professional football club. Or perhaps I'm just more competitive than some other people.

Some people will say 17th will do. For me, that ship has sailed and we're aiming for higher results.

no, that ship is definately still bobbling about on unchartered waters, survival is key, and replicating a top ten is not going to happen.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:35 pm

FactualFrank wrote:No, because that's the difference between believing and thinking, "well - maybe".

Each fan is different, but if you're in a competition, you can win it. Even a club in League 2 will have their goal of getting promotions and getting into the Premier League. That is surely the target for any professional football club. Or perhaps I'm just more competitive than some other people.

Some people will say 17th will do. For me, that ship has sailed and we're aiming for higher results.

In Formula one the teams at the back of the grid know they have no chance of winning unless there are multiple failures by the cars at the front. Their aim is not to win the race, but to be competitive. They are being realistic.

To win the PL you need over 80 points normally, equating to 27 wins. Should that be our aim? If it is then there is no point in going to places like the Etihad and settling for a draw if that was the score deep into injury time. We might as well go gung-ho for the winner!

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:37 pm

Wile E Coyote wrote:no, that ship is definately still bobbling about on unchartered waters, survival is key, and replicating a top ten is not going to happen.

I think we'll definitely stay up, but it might be more mid table due to the European games. This is assuming we bring in a few more players, which I think we will. A lot of players will want to wait until after the World Cup before committing to a new club.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:42 pm

Spijed wrote:In Formula one the teams at the back of the grid know they have no chance of winning unless there are multiple failures by the cars at the front. Their aim is not to win the race, but to be competitive. They are being realistic.

To win the PL you need over 80 points normally, equating to 27 wins. Should that be our aim? If it is then there is no point in going to places like the Etihad and settling for a draw if that was the score deep into injury time. We might as well go gung-ho for the winner!

You're the prime example of somebody who just doesn't get it. Winning the Premier League is what every club in the Prem will be going for. It's not about this season, it's planned in advance with major goals and sub goals.

Every chairman will have the goal to the win the Premier League. It's a target they'll have mapped out. It's a goal - it's an aim - it's a target. It might take 20 years, but they'll still be ultimately planning for it.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:52 am

FactualFrank wrote:You're the prime example of somebody who just doesn't get it. Winning the Premier League is what every club in the Prem will be going for. It's not about this season, it's planned in advance with major goals and sub goals.

Every chairman will have the goal to the win the Premier League. It's a target they'll have mapped out. It's a goal - it's an aim - it's a target. It might take 20 years, but they'll still be ultimately planning for it.

With all due respect you seem like the person who “just doesn’t get it”
Every chairman will not have the goal of winning the Premier League - just because you say it does not make it so !

Different clubs and different chairmen will have different aims. When you are talking about having the next 20 years mapped out with targets and sub steps all laid out that sounds like nonsense. Have you ever seen one of these 20 year blue prints with a picture of thd Premier League trophy on the last page with a big arrow saying “WIN THIS” ?!!

A club like ours may have a 5 year plan - even possibly a 10 year plan - what if won’t have at the end of it is winning the league as what possible steps could a club like ours put in place to win the league ? What do you think ?
Year 5 - ask Sheik Mansoor if he will buy BFC for a billion
Year 6 - spend a billion on new players
Year 7 - win Premier League

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:09 am

Spijed wrote:Admirable as your views are I think one word needs to be added - 'Realism'.

For example, should Ashley Barnes aspire to be as good as Lionel Messi or be realistic and accept he never can be as good but create a nice career for himself, which he has done?

I take your point but I think I was being realistic. I've never suggested we are going to win the PL just that to achieve any goal you have to look BEYOND that which you hope to achieve. In striving to achieve 'the impossible' the possible might just be more than you thought. And why not strive to win a cup competition, lesser sides than us have done so in the past?
Let me ask a question: would you rather we had a comfortable season in the PL and finish top half with no scares but win nothing or a season long, albeit successful struggle against relegation and lift, say, the FA Cup? I know which I would prefer and it wouldn't be the steady option.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:18 am

Of course it would be the second option as a preference - but I doubt very much the club would put things in place to plan for such a season where we flirt with relegation yet win the FA Cup. All you need to do is look at the FA Cup winners and finalists for many years now and again it’s the top clubs who win it.

How could we plan for a season like that ? Drop players for league games and rest the better ones to play them in the Cup - only to eventually draw one of the big boys and eventually get beat ?.....having then dropped points in the league ?

You seem to mixing dreams with realistic objectives - which is absolutely fine for us as fans (but not really that relevant to the club)

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:02 am

After being in the League for some years I think the FA Cup can become a big draw and with it danger. I don’t always agree with SD’s methodology but about Cups he probably has it right.

Brunshawroad66 · Post by **Brunshawroad66** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:49 pm

FactualFrank wrote: Winning the Premier League is what every club in the Prem will be going for. It's not about this season, it's planned in advance with major goals and sub goals.

Every chairman will have the goal to the win the Premier League. It's a target they'll have mapped out. It's a goal - it's an aim - it's a target. It might take 20 years, but they'll still be ultimately planning for it.

No it really isn't

No they don't

No they never will

..football has been about money in this country since we adopted professionalism back in the 1880's - first and foremost it is a business.

Braindead · Post by **Braindead** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:54 pm

ablueclaret wrote:The aim must be to become Champions surely?

I stopped reading at this point.

Clearly angling.