Aston Villa in financial trouble

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:36 pm

Didn't the glazers buy man united with massive loans thou?

I know they were not poor, but they then transferred that debt on to United, and it only hasn't been an issue because United haven't really suffered under them.

I'd still be fuming if I was a United fan to be perfectly honest.

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:40 pm

The Glazers have done united for around £1billion so far - yes they have also brought much more than that in with their commercial deals - but imagine how far ahead they could be if had those additional funds to spend

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:59 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:No bottomless pit.
Did you see how much debt they had on buying Man U. there interest payments for a year where more than we've had in history. If they hadn't had the wealth behind them, they would never have been allowed to buy the club on tick.

I was assuming you were referring to a bottomless pit of wealth in terms of investing it into the club. Anyone who buys a Premier League club is going to have to be wealthy to afford one, regardless of where they are from.

The foreign/British owners stuff is rubbish in my opinion. There are good owners and bad owners regardless of where they come from. MK Dons is a perfect example of this.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:04 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:You only lose money if you spend more than you receive. We wouldn't get as much money in the championship, no brainer, but you tighten your belt and budget accordingly. This thread isn't about whether Aston Villa made less money in the championship, but did they mould their budget to fit the circumstances. The threat of a winding up order clearly shows they didn't. Would you really like to see Burnley take a chance like that, because for a small town club on the edge of the Pennines it would be a death knell.

If we budgeted to match what we receive in the Championship then we'd be one of the favourites for relegation each year. Our non-TV revenues aren't big enough to compete year-in year-out. The higher up the divisions you go the less important the matchday revenue and the rest of it becomes.

If we hadn't been promoted under Coyle then it is very likely we'd have eventually ended up in League One instead.

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:06 pm

On the question of what constitutes good owners how do people feel about Hemmings at PNE - I think he now runs the club sustainably, tidy not too flashy ground and reasonably comfortable in the championship with a flirtation at the playoffs - still cannot get over the fact he employed Risdale though

Wokingclaret · Post by **Wokingclaret** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:17 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:You only lose money if you spend more than you receive. We wouldn't get as much money in the championship, no brainer, but you tighten your belt and budget accordingly. This thread isn't about whether Aston Villa made less money in the championship, but did they mould their budget to fit the circumstances. The threat of a winding up order clearly shows they didn't. Would you really like to see Burnley take a chance like that, because for a small town club on the edge of the Pennines it would be a death knell.

Well, we didn't the last time two times, we bust the bank going into the play off final 2009, and by the time of the Dyche first full season we were skint and had to sell Charlie.

Sausage · Post by **Sausage** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:17 pm

aggi wrote:The foreign/British owners stuff is rubbish in my opinion. There are good owners and bad owners regardless of where they come from. MK Dons is a perfect example of this.

So are you saying Pete Winkelman is a good owner or a bad one? I reckon he's a massive bellend* and I hate what he did to Wimbledon but he runs MK Dons with minimal debt and a decent academy.

[*constitutes 'fair comment' in libel law, based on his stealing a football club from more than 50 miles away]

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:08 pm

Sausage wrote:So are you saying Pete Winkelman is a good owner or a bad one? I reckon he's a massive bellend* and I hate what he did to Wimbledon but he runs MK Dons with minimal debt and a decent academy.

[*constitutes 'fair comment' in libel law, based on his stealing a football club from more than 50 miles away]

I was more thinking of him as an owner at Wimbledon. He wasn't too good for them.

Long Time Lurker · Post by **Long Time Lurker** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:31 pm

claretspice wrote:If Mee is to go, then James Chester is a not dissimilar sort of player, and another leader/communicator, so it wouldn't greatly surprise me to see us try and exploit Villa's instability to land him as a replacement.

In respect to his playing style I would agree, but I think they would still ask for an eye watering amount of money. It seems the norm these days. Shaun Hutchinson would be another comparable player we could look at, left footed and cheaper, but he would represent a downgrade on Mee. He could qualify as a respectable back up if we don't have a better iron in the fire that isn't going to cost us bazzillions.

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:20 pm

Tall Paul wrote:What does the owners being foreign have to do with it?

Pro rata they are the ones whose clubs get these problems.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:29 pm

Stayingup wrote:Pro rata they are the ones whose clubs get these problems.

Please show your work.

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:52 pm

Villa come to an arrangement with HMRC to fend off administration.

http://www.skysports.com/share/11396854" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Murger · Post by **Murger** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:00 pm

So that £500k we paid early for Westwood has gone straight to the tax man it seems.

NRC · Post by **NRC** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:44 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:No bottomless pit.
Did you see how much debt they had on buying Man U. there interest payments for a year where more than we've had in history. If they hadn't had the wealth behind them, they would never have been allowed to buy the club on tick.

tired of hearing about the debt burden from the Glazers.... the debt, albeit large, was serviceable from income, and they're doing it incredibly well.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:35 pm

There are "good" football club owners and there are "bad" football club owners - nationality isn't an indicator of either good nor bad.

The key things with owners from overseas can carry the risk that they don't fully understand how Premier League and EFL operate - though they could and should get advice on these things, though maybe some new owners didn't know they didn't this advice or didn't listen when it was given - or were advised by the wrong people.

Recently we have seen examples where (i) an overseas owner can't get a visa to re-enter the country - and is maybe under financial pressures as a result of political issues and (ii) rules and regulations in their home country (or wherever else their wealth is held) restricts the flow of funds into the club they own.

ecc · Post by **ecc** » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:34 am

Could I just check something with the Clarets who are far more knowledgeable about FFP than I am, please?

Xia has apparently been making monthly payments to Villa and has now ceased to do so hence their current inability to pay HMRC.

Am I right in thinking that the FFP is about the income generated by the club independently of monies pumped in by the owner e.g. ticket sales, TV money, sponsors etc?

Many thanks in advance.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:48 am

ecc wrote:Could I just check something with the Clarets who are far more knowledgeable about FFP than I am, please?

Xia has apparently been making monthly payments to Villa and has now ceased to do so hence their current inability to pay HMRC.

Am I right in thinking that the FFP is about the income generated by the club independently of monies pumped in by the owner e.g. ticket sales, TV money, sponsors etc?

Many thanks in advance.

Yes. FFP is partly to do with trying to stop clubs going bankrupt, but is also to do with restricting the chances of rich owners buying promotion. Money provided by owners, either as loans or share capital, doesn't count as income (apart from the first £5m p.a. injected as share capital) for the purposes of FFP.

ecc · Post by **ecc** » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:53 am

Many thanks, dsr.

LeadBelly · Post by **LeadBelly** » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:17 am

There's another footy/finances article in Guardian today about finances generally in the Championship (2016/17 figures). It details the huge disparity in income between Prem & Championship (total income of Ch teams that year was £720m (cf. £4,500m for Prem). Of the £720m, £219m was parachute monies).
What surprises me about Villa is that they lost £81m in their relegation year (then £14 in their 1st year down and probably a lot more last season). I know the TV money was less 2 years ago but how do you lose £81m whilst getting all that Pren income? (Answer, I guess, is by being ridiculously imprudent).

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... l-accounts

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:20 am

I've had a good read this morning and clearly the Villa position is far worse than I imagined

randomclaret2 · Post by **randomclaret2** » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:00 pm

Theyll be pining for the days of Deadly Doug

JTClaret · Post by **JTClaret** » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:18 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:He's apparently not put any money into the club for a few months.

I love how often we see ridiculous comments like this.
But I can't work out if it's funnier that fans expect an owner to constantly pour money in, then complain they are foreign when they don't, or that it's more important to throw money at it than set up a well run club.

Imagine a club the size of Villa run by our board.

redwasp · Post by **redwasp** » Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:35 pm

I've just got back from a few days away so forgive me if this is already common knowledge. There's an article in today's Daily Mirror about Villa's financial plight with this paragraph, "and last week, to meet the payroll, they went to Burnley and asked them to bring forward a payment due on the sale of Ashley Westwood. in return, Villa lopped off a percentage."

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:27 pm

Well if there are any cheapish players that SD fancies I would like to think we could get them.

ecc · Post by **ecc** » Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:36 pm

Villa were losing money for the last few years of Lerner's ownership. I thought they'd go down again because I couldn't see who they could sell. Xia arrived in May 2016 and gave Di Matteo money to spend and it was more or less wasted (Ross" Gateman" McCormack was spectularly poor value for money) and Bruce ended up saving them from another relegation. In fairness to him he did turn things round last season after having pruned the squad. But failure to go back to the PL against Fulham now seems to have put them in the mire.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:46 pm

Villa used too have a great youth set-up,they may have to explore talent closer to home,rather than playing OTT salaries in the Championship.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:00 pm

Wyness is now threatening to sue for unfair dismissal

Herts Clarets · Post by **Herts Clarets** » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:02 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Wyness is now threatening to sue for unfair dismissal

Has he been fired? Last I read was that he was suspended.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:55 pm

Herts Clarets wrote:Has he been fired? Last I read was that he was suspended.

He was suspended last week but I can only assume he's been dismissed now if he's taking legal action

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:11 pm

Citing Manchester united is not relevant, it's the equivalent of Amazon running a loss year on year. The business assets and brand were/are worth far more than any cash debt.
Aston Villa however, are a different kettle of fish. The way they've been run in the last few years is criminal, it's nothing short of gambling.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:18 pm

Gamblers rarely win,hence Villa being up the proverbial creek without any paddles.

ecc · Post by **ecc** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:43 am

He's been sacked and is going to sue Villa for constructive dismissal.

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/ ... c-14769528" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Villa would have to pay Bruce £3m if they sacked him (same source).

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:11 am

Why are they cash strapped and up the creek when Tony Xia is reportedly a billionaire? Is he not willing to pour more money in? The Villa fans seem to like him, is there something I'm missing but why doesn't he sell if he's simply not prepared to dump his money into his business?

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:13 am

KRBFC wrote:Why are they cash strapped and up the creek when Tony Xia is reportedly a billionaire? Is he not willing to pour more money in? The Villa fans seem to like him, is there something I'm missing but why doesn't he sell if he's simply not prepared to dump his money into his business?

China is stopping him putting more money in

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:18 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:China is stopping him putting more money in

So he's not a bad owner and his hands are tied? That probably explains why the Villa fans seem to like him.

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:19 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:China is stopping him putting more money in

China not stopping Wolves owners putting money , I think it’s an excuse as he’s lost interest

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:46 am

joey13 wrote:China not stopping Wolves owners putting money , I think it’s an excuse as he’s lost interest

Fosun has his money spread around outside of China, so the financial restrictions don't bother him.

LeadBelly · Post by **LeadBelly** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:49 am

The local Brum paper has an update this am https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/ ... s-14773005
Xia doesn't want to sell but will consider doing if he can get his (£80m) money back; he really wants an investor to take a % of the club - looking for c £30m.
I've not seen a full explanation into why Xia has pulled the plug on financial support. There's the view that China has generally come down on money leaving the country but this only seems part of the story. Maybe he's not as rich as people thought -or maybe he's just realised Villa has become a huge drain on his resources and is returning very little of what he wants.

Very choppy waters for Villa coming up.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:06 am

LeadBelly wrote:The local Brum paper has an update this am https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/ ... s-14773005
Xia doesn't want to sell but will consider doing if he can get his (£80m) money back; he really wants an investor to take a % of the club - looking for c £30m.
I've not seen a full explanation into why Xia has pulled the plug on financial support. There's the view that China has generally come down on money leaving the country but this only seems part of the story. Maybe he's not as rich as people thought -or maybe he's just realised Villa has become a huge drain on his resources and is returning very little of what he wants.

Very choppy waters for Villa coming up.

I believe Inter Milan have similar issues with Chinese owners, so the point about China not allowing money to leave the country makes sense.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:12 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Fosun has his money spread around outside of China, so the financial restrictions don't bother him.

Another of Sidney's specialist subjects was the Ownership and Control of Wolverhampton Wanderers.

Other mastermind specialist subjects on which he could answer any question include, but are not limited to:

Jaguar Land Rover
Tony Bloom and Brighton & Hove Albion
Burnley Football Club (2009 onwards)
The NHS
What Labour has done in the past
Things which have happened before, and will happen again

Keep your eye out for GodIsADeeJay81 (Sidney's birth year) providing answers on the above subjects soon.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:39 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:Another of Sidney's specialist subjects was the Ownership and Control of Wolverhampton Wanderers.

Other mastermind specialist subjects on which he could answer any question include, but are not limited to:

Jaguar Land Rover
Tony Bloom and Brighton & Hove Albion
Burnley Football Club (2009 onwards)
The NHS
What Labour has done in the past
Things which have happened before, and will happen again

Keep your eye out for GodIsADeeJay81 (Sidney's birth year) providing answers on the above subjects soon.

Did Sid get banned?

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:40 am

KRBFC wrote:Did Sid get banned?

No

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:45 am

Villa have just confirmed that Wyness has now left the club

https://www.avfc.co.uk/News/2018/06/12/ ... ess-leaves" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:48 am

I think The problems that Villa are in just highlights the serious position a club can find itself in with foreign ownership.

Thank goodness we are not in that position.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:50 am

South West Claret. wrote:I think The problems that Villa are in just highlights the serious position a club can find itself in with foreign ownership.

Thank goodness we are not in that position.

I think if you read up the thread you'll find it is not always foreign ownership (Blackpool being a very good example of how things go wrong) while there are a lot of very good foreign owners.

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:57 am

ClaretTony wrote:I think if you read up the thread you'll find it is not always foreign ownership (Blackpool being a very good example of how things go wrong) while there are a lot of very good foreign owners.

I didn’t say it was.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:09 pm

ecc wrote:He's been sacked and is going to sue Villa for constructive dismissal.

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/ ... c-14769528" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Villa would have to pay Bruce £3m if they sacked him (same source).

If he's suing for constructive dismissal, it he claims he was forced out, not that he was formally sacked.

ecc · Post by **ecc** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:59 pm

Hi dsr,

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Perhaps because I said "sacked" instead of the official wording from the club which is that Wyness "has left the club".

The BM is saying he was "sacked".

I put in the bit about Steve Bruce independently of the CEO. Whilst I'm not his greatest fan, I think Bruce has done a good job there. But knee-jerkery was in full swing immediately after the P/O Final. Given their financial dilemma and overall meltdown as a club I think the last thing they need to do is sack Bruce. He is the public face of the club and most sensible fans would, I feel, want him to stay especially a fortnight after the immediate disappointment of Wembley.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:27 pm

ecc wrote:Hi dsr,

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Perhaps because I said "sacked" instead of the official wording from the club which is that Wyness "has left the club".

The BM is saying he was "sacked".

I put in the bit about Steve Bruce independently of the CEO. Whilst I'm not his greatest fan, I think Bruce has done a good job there. But knee-jerkery was in full swing immediately after the P/O Final. Given their financial dilemma and overall meltdown as a club I think the last thing they need to do is sack Bruce. He is the public face of the club and most sensible fans would, I feel, want him to stay especially a fortnight after the immediate disappointment of Wembley.

Unfair dismissal is when you get sacked. Constructive dismissal is when you weren't sacked but complain that your job was made so impossible that you had to walk out.

ecc · Post by **ecc** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:07 pm

Yes, I'm aware of that, dsr. Either way he's left the club.

I think the problem is the excessive use of the colloquial verb "to sack", is it not?

What is important for Villa fans is the realisation that their club has been dependent on £4m monthly payments from Xia to keep the club going. It's a fairly dramatic scenario.