Possible 2nd EU Referendum

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claret_in_exile
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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by claret_in_exile » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:18 pm

AndrewJB wrote:The Tories will only call for a National Government if they lose the next election. What sticks in my throat is the fact David Cameron was quick to demand stiff penalties for rioters back in 2011 - indeed a few people went to jail for as little as stealing a bottle of water - yet he's caused this entire mess with no right of the nation to seek redress from him.
The Tories have certainly not covered themselves in glory throughout this whole process, to say the least. Indeed, only Theresa May has had the bottle not to jump off the sinking ship they themselves scuttled. It's a shame she's woefully incompetent.

If there was any quality in the opposition, they'd have won the last General and that WOULD have been enough to justify a second referendum, I think.

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:58 pm

claret_in_exile wrote:The fact that the Remainers have been proved right so far shouldn't mean that the majority should have their vote annulled unless they themselves call for it. That way leads a very dangerous path ...
Why not?

What are the Leave voters going to do about it?

Absolutely nothing (except a load of badly spelled whingeing on message boards).

They can hardly march on Parliament, even a train ticket from the Home Counties is several weeks unemployment benefit.

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by Lowbankclaret » Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:28 pm

I will post the next n the series of Peters thoughts, it’s a bit long Mg but there is some brexit thoughts in there.

America Sells Its Seoul



The United States and South Korea have agreed on an overhaul of their bilateral trade agreement this past week. In it, the Koreans caved on pretty much every issue of contention, most notably agreeing to improve American firms’ access to Korea’s automotive and pharmaceutical markets while restricting their own exports of steel to the United States by nearly one-third. In exchange, the Koreans received the first permanent waiver to the Trump administration’s until-now unrelated issue of steel and aluminum tariffs.

In addition, Trump has personally made it clear he has little intention of formally signing off on the deal until after the North Korean situation is resolved, insuring South Korea must follow the American preferences on any subsequent arrangements with Kim Jung Un, rather than the other way around.

It’s the first formalized, publicly-declared instance of American foreign policy coming full circle. During the Soviet standoff the Americans made the global oceans safe for all and kept the American market open to the alliance, in essence trading some of its economic power in order to purchase a security alliance. But the Cold War is nearly three decades gone now, and until recently the Americans had yet to update their strategic policy. As such, the post-Cold War global economic boom was largely a result of the Americans continuing to pay for a global system without getting anything in return. That disconnect was in part responsible for America’s recoiling from the world and the rise of Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump.

We now have the beginning of a formal re-engineering of the old Cold War system. Linkage between economic and security issues is back – but without the Cold War rubric to shape it, American policy is taking on a somewhat à la carte characteristic.

South Korea was a great spot for the first of a new series of arrangements. Next to the three tiny Baltic states that have no hope of defending themselves against their monster neighbor Russia, there is no country in the world that has a greater defense dependency upon the United States. And since South Korea has a smallish, rapidly aging population (aka low local consumption and so export-dependent) and few domestic resources (aka import-dependent), trade is its lifeblood. No country in the world would be forced to come to terms with the Americans more, and Korea’s position as the world’s fifth-largest exporter means everyone must take notice.

Whether starting with the Koreans was the goal all along, or the well-worn contours of geography and economics guided the administration a bit like a luge course to this destination is really not relevant. (Donald Trump’s general lack of discipline and revulsion in the face of context suggests the latter. U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer’s laser attention to detail and dogged persistence suggests the former. National Security Advisor John Bolton hasn’t been on Team Trump long enough to participate in the Korea trade talks, but this sort of thing certainly fits with his style, too).

The biggest question in my mind is, who’s next?





Seoul, South Korea



China seems like an interesting bet, but I’m guessing the Trump administration wants to get far more out of the Chinese than merely new understandings on steel, aluminum, intellectual property rights, and North Korea. The White House appears set to link a host of until-now unlinked issues. Issues like agriculture and freedom of navigation, manufacturing and the South China Sea, finance and hacking, market access and policies on Iran, reciprocity and Russian sanctions. It is a heavy list and even if the Chinese were to simply roll over on it all (which is not very likely) it would take quite a bit of time to work out the details.

In my opinion, folks convinced of the Chinese rise aren’t very good at math or reading maps. The Chinese financial system is the most overextended in history and every country that has followed its investment-led model has eventually crashed hard. The one-child policy has destroyed China’s future – it is now the world’s third-fastest aging demography. China’s strategic position is horrid – a line of islands parallels its coast, preventing it from projecting power into the sea lanes upon which its economy depends. It is utterly reliant on global energy imports and global merchandise exports – imports and exports which are under the thumb of the U.S. Navy.

The linkage the Americans are about to impose is the opposite of what the Chinese have become used to the Americans doing. It is precisely what the Chinese do to everyone else whenever the issue of Hong Kong or Taiwan or Tibet comes up. The Chinese are going to hate/fear this sort of strategic thinking in the United States because it cuts to the heart of the Chinese political system and strategic policy. And there’s far more to this than Beijing knowing they lack the leverage on the Americans to win. The Americans are in effect putting a dollar amount on their Korean alliance, and the same thing can now be done to any other aspect of American policy – including the China relationship.

The same general issue holds true for the European Union. Most of the European states are in terminal demographic decline, meaning that not only are they deeply dependent upon exports for their economic well-being, there is absolutely no hope their economic situation can be sustained, much less improved, without either the kindness of outsiders or a fundamental reshaping of how Europe defines the terms “economy” and “government.” Considering the European experimentation with those two terms in generations past, that last sentence should make everyone a bit twitchy.

And of course those are just some of Europe’s problem. There are also ongoing and deepening debt, banking, refugee, and political legitimacy crises. With neighboring powers – primarily Turkey and Russia – becoming more aggressive, the European choice is between once-again submitting themselves to American strategic goals, aggressively rearming in an era of terminal economic decline, or going through a regional…re-invention.

It’s an ugly choice, and one made far worse by a host of until-now unrelated issues.

Brexit not only reduces the EU’s overall heft and thus its stature in the world and at the negotiating table, but the UK acting as a free agent can and will provide the Americans with a host of wedge issues to hurt the Europeans where they are most vulnerable.
Of the EU’s 28 current members, five – Ireland, Cyprus, Austria, Finland and Sweden – are not in NATO, and so have little history in making formal economics-for-security swaps with the Americans.
Full competence for negotiating trade deals is held collectively with the European Commission, the EU’s executive/administrative/bureaucratic authority. But full competence for negotiating defense deals is held individually with the member states.
On major issues – for example, economics-for-security swap deals – every EU member has full veto rights. Even a deal that makes sense for France and Germany and Italy and Poland and Spain and the Netherlands and Sweden could be undone by a local election in Belgium (nearly derailed a free trade deal with the Canadians), or a spiteful politician in Greece (did derail Europe’s Russia policy).
That means that either a) the major EU powers find ways outside of EU norms to crush the dissenters, b) the EU gets cut out of American and global markets which throws Europe into a long-lasting depression, or c) the Trump administration breaks the entire EU in order to get its deal with the members that matter. No matter the path, the strategic alignments that have made the EU the vehicle that have made Europe united, at peace, wealthy and free are over.





Zocalo, Mexico City, Mexico



If anything, the NAFTA renegotiation will be even tougher, but here the issues are different. Canada and Mexico are not dependent upon the Americans for strategic overwatch (or, more accurately, the United States has no option but to protect its continental neighbors from extra-continental threats if it is to protect itself). Neither of them trade very much with the rest of the world, with both in essence functioning as de facto extensions of the American economic space.

The Americans can, will and are playing hardball in the talks, but the Canadians and Mexicans are doing the same. They know the tactics the Trump administration is employing to bring the rest of the world to heel just don’t apply in North America. Both Canada and Mexico have been (repeatedly) successful in courting American corporate giants and American state governors to make their cases in Washington for them. Remember that NAFTA is the only trade deal the Americans have signed in the post-WWII era that was not about security. That gives both Canada and Mexico something that neither the Chinese nor Europeans have: leverage.

It also means that the Canadians are playing very dirty, following what has more-or-less become a scorched earth policy. As part of Canada’s NAFTA strategy the Canadians have launched a case at the WTO that would actually hurt them if they won, because if they did win, the case would impose such pain on the Americans it would likely induce the Trump administration to abandon the WTO completely. Additionally, Canada’s hardball tactics might be aiming to wreck NAFTA. If that were to happen, Canada has a separate bilateral trade deal with the United States…but Mexico does not. In a world without the WTO and NAFTA, Canada would become the only country to maintain preferential access to the American economy. Harsh. Brilliant, but harsh.

But all these talks will take time. For the Chinese and Europeans, these are all very messy, complex, interwoven issues that cut to the core of issues of national identity and even national existence. For the Canadians and Mexicans the negotiations will continue to be difficult because with those countries the Americans are actually dealing with a more-or-less level field. The Americans with their stereotypical boorish, freight-train style will plow through it all as quickly as they can – and Lighthizer and Bolton will revel in every minute of it – but unweaving and reweaving the strands of China and Europe will take time, as will hammering out a more sustainable understanding within North America.

Trump isn’t that patient.

My bet is the next two deals will be bilateral and done more or less simultaneously.

Japan will be far easier than most of the other negotiations in front of the Americans because it will be a one-on-one talk as compared the multilateral complications of NAFTA and the EU. Japan – like South Korea – is deeply enmeshed into American defense networks and fully admits and realizes just how important U.S. strategic policy is to its own strategic needs (while most of the Chinese and Europeans remain in deep denial). Contrary to the conventional wisdom, Japan is no longer a massive trading nation. Rather than engage in broad-based economic and financial reform in the 1990s and 2000s to fix their broken economic model, they instead walled themselves off from the world. Consequently, Japan’s share of the international export market has shrunk by four-fifths since the 1980s.

Most importantly, the horror show that is Japan’s aging demography long ago induced the Japanese to forward-position much of their manufacturing capacity in their end-markets both to minimize currency risk and curry political and strategic favors. In essence, Japan has already swallowed some of this economics-for-security medicine in the post-Cold War era. It won’t crush their sense of national identity or their national economy to do it again, so long as the Americans continue to hem in places like North Korea and China.

The other big about-to-be deal is the United Kingdom, and this deal will practically fall into the Trump administration’s lap. Because of Brexit, the Brits are already casting out for alternative systems. The search has not been going particularly well. Political bungling at home, unrealistic expectations from the Leavers, a united EU front, and a resurgent and increasingly economically suicidal Labor opposition have tangled up the UK’s negotiating positions on pretty much everything.

The government of Prime Minister Theresa May now fully realizes that there is going to be no Brexit deal. It took considerable concessions to the EU simply to extend the negotiation period for another year. The new arrangement is that the UK will remain subject to all relevant EU laws and regulations, but will gain no input or votes on them during the “transition.” The one concession London teased out is the one most relevant to this discussion: the EU will allow the UK to negotiate trade deals outside of the EU’s authority. So the Brits now need to and are free to fully recalibrate their national, regional and global security and economic norms just as the Americans are reforging national, regional and global security and economic norms.

If the Trump-Lighthizer-Bolton team can induce (browbeat?) the world’s third- and fifth-largest economies which control the world’s second- and third-largest navies into joining the United States in a refashioned economics-for-security arrangement, then not only will the Trump administration have gotten a couple “big wins,” but the global stage will be set for whatever strategic alignments come next.

This is the bit that worries me, but it is also the bit that I ultimately expected.

The established American foreign policy community, both in the government bureaucracy and distributed throughout Washington, is still living in the past and seems out of ideas. For its part, the Trump administration has no strategic vision; MAGA is a slogan, not a policy. The normal means of debating a new national grand strategy – discussion and debate between the major parties – is not possible because both parties are currently broken.

Trump may be stumbling/groping/learning his way into a common approach, but he is doing so without any guiding principles or goals. The Cold War structure was stable because the Americans paid everyone the same (by creating a global structure) and expected the same behavior in return (membership in the anti-Soviet alliance).

This time around the Americans are customizing the membership fee to match the need. For South Korea the cost is deference on North Korea. For China it will likely be deference on global policy. For Europe it will likely include a demand to follow American regulatory norms. And as the Americans are strategically unmoored, I see no reason why the goal posts won’t move as America’s perceived self-needs evolve. It is less the stuff of a global leader and more the behavior of a mafioso.

There’s a reason I call the next couple of decades the “Coming Disorder.”

Read more about it in my book, The Accidental Superpower.

South West Claret.
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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by South West Claret. » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:34 pm

The Independent has launched its Final Say campaign to demand that the electorate is given a referendum on the final Brexit deal.

We are incredibly grateful for the positive responses that have been sent to us and expressed on social media.

Here is your chance to join the campaign to have your voice heard on our future relationship with the EU by signing our petition here.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/fi ... 63166.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by martin_p » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:46 pm

South West Claret. wrote:The Independent has launched its Final Say campaign to demand that the electorate is given a referendum on the final Brexit deal.

We are incredibly grateful for the positive responses that have been sent to us and expressed on social media.

Here is your chance to join the campaign to have your voice heard on our future relationship with the EU by signing our petition here.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/fi ... 63166.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Anyone know Ringo’s name and address?

Paul Waine
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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:19 pm

martin_p wrote:Anyone know Ringo’s name and address?
Doesn't Ringo write for the Independent?

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by tiger76 » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:28 pm

South West Claret. wrote:The Independent has launched its Final Say campaign to demand that the electorate is given a referendum on the final Brexit deal.

We are incredibly grateful for the positive responses that have been sent to us and expressed on social media.

Here is your chance to join the campaign to have your voice heard on our future relationship with the EU by signing our petition here.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/fi ... 63166.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I voted leave in 2016,but a decision of such magnitude needs further consideration,so if it takes another vote to clarify the UK'S stance fine by me.

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by Imploding Turtle » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:37 pm

A post as long as Lowbankclaret's just isn't the same without coloured text, unhinged conspiracy theories and normalised antisemitism.

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by Clarets4me » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:42 pm

South West Claret. wrote:The Independent has launched its Final Say campaign to demand that the electorate is given a referendum on the final Brexit deal.

We are incredibly grateful for the positive responses that have been sent to us and expressed on social media.

Here is your chance to join the campaign to have your voice heard on our future relationship with the EU by signing our petition here.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/fi ... 63166.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The only Referendum we should have is to leave with May's " Deal " ( Not yet finalised ) , or on a no deal basis !!

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by Imploding Turtle » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:44 pm

Clarets4me wrote:The only Referendum we should have is to leave with May's " Deal " ( Not yet finalised ) , or on a no deal basis !!
Why?

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:46 pm

Lets just sack it off. I think we all realise it was a big mistake so just put it behind us and get back to normality

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by tiger76 » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:48 pm

Clarets4me wrote:The only Referendum we should have is to leave with May's " Deal " ( Not yet finalised ) , or on a no deal basis !!
That's choosing between the devil and the deep blue sea,if that was the 2 options on the ballot i'd be abstaining,unless Mayhem pulls something out at the 11th hour.

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by Clarets4me » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:01 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Why?
Because we've already had a vote on the issue of either to Remain or Leave, and the result was conclusive .... 65.29% of registered Electors failed to endorse remaining in the European Union, even on Mr Cameron's improved terms ...

The Labour Party, Conservatives, Unionists and UKIP, all fought the last election on a mandate to leave the EU, and between them, gained 85.35% of all votes cast ( 32,204,124 ) ...

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:04 am

So. Who's ready to go on trial?

Image

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:08 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:Lets just sack it off. I think we all realise it was a big mistake so just put it behind us and get back to normality
p_101528432.jpg
p_101528432.jpg (16.03 KiB) Viewed 2683 times

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:14 am

Clarets4me wrote:Because we've already had a vote on the issue of either to Remain or Leave, and the result was conclusive .... 65.29% of registered Electors failed to endorse remaining in the European Union, even on Mr Cameron's improved terms ...

The Labour Party, Conservatives, Unionists and UKIP, all fought the last election on a mandate to leave the EU, and between them, gained 85.35% of all votes cast ( 32,204,124 ) ...


That argument undercuts your point, because 62.56% of the registered electors didn't endorse leaving under any deal at all.

So now we get to see if you're consistent and realise that the referendum wasn't as "conclusive" as you originally thought, or if you move the goalposts and decide to make another argument after this one you tried clearly made no sense whatsoever.

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:15 am

Jakubclaret wrote:
p_101528432.jpg
Image

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:16 am

^^^ traitor!

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by Clarets4me » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:48 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:That argument undercuts your point, because 62.56% of the registered electors didn't endorse leaving under any deal at all.
So now we get to see if you're consistent and realise that the referendum wasn't as "conclusive" as you originally thought, or if you move the goalposts and decide to make another argument after this one you tried clearly made no sense whatsoever.
Nonsense ! It's generally accepted that Referendums should be used sparingly in our Parliamentry Democracy, on matters of Constitutional importance, hence .... EEC Remain Referendum ( 1975 ) and more recently, PR v First past the post, Scottish/Welsh Devolution, Scottish Independence, EU Referendum etc .....

Once the decision was made by Referendum, the details or nuts and bolts of how the decision was implemented was carried out by the Government of the day, and carried through Parliament. In none of the above examples was a further Referendum held.

More importantly, after none of these Referendums, did the Politicians go back to the people and say " You've got this wrong, thicko's, we're going to have another vote, and if necessary keep voting until we get the answer we want ! " That is the EU way !! ;)
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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:13 am

Clarets4me wrote:Nonsense ! It's generally accepted that Referendums should be used sparingly in our Parliamentry Democracy, on matters of Constitutional importance, hence .... EEC Remain Referendum ( 1975 ) and more recently, PR v First past the post, Scottish/Welsh Devolution, Scottish Independence, EU Referendum etc .....

Once the decision was made by Referendum, the details or nuts and bolts of how the decision was implemented was carried out by the Government of the day, and carried through Parliament. In none of the above examples was a further Referendum held.

More importantly, after none of these Referendums, did the Politicians go back to the people and say " You've got this wrong, thicko's, we're going to have another vote, and if necessary keep voting until we get the answer we want ! " That is the EU way !! ;)

There they go. Those walking goalposts. Now you're opposed to a referendum on the final deal because referendums should be used sparingly. Even though earlier you said we should have a referendum on the final deal.

And why is it more important that we get the choice to Remain or Leave with the type of Brexit being uncertain and unknown than the choice between either Remain or Leave with the type of Brexit actually, finally known?
Why is it ok to have a referendum based on an undefined outcome on one side, but once that outcome is defined NOT have a referendum to find out if under those terms we're still OK with leaving?

I think we both know why you don't want the people to decide on the final deal, and it has nothing to do with Democracy. You are frightened that a majority of voters will reject Leave when it is definable. That's what you're all frightened of. Which means you're frightened of democracy.

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by Clarets4me » Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:39 am

We both know that my initial post was " tongue in cheek " in response to calls for a 2nd Referendum....
I'm not frightened of Democracy, you seem to want to ignore it's results !

If we'd had a Referendum in 1940, between making terms with the Nazi's or continuing the War, I take it you'd have rejected the continuation of the conflict as the future was unclear, and could have had short/medium term consequences for the United Kingdom ?

I would also point out that should we have voted to remain, then our future would also have been far from certain, apart from the increasing domination of the Franco/German axis. The next set of EU Elections are due early next year, which should produce an EU Parliament a little more sceptical, I fancy !
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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by ClaretMoffitt » Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:09 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:Image
One day I'll see a lefty post that about their own country.
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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:59 am

ClaretMoffitt wrote:One day I'll see a lefty post that about their own country.
When you do please point the Rat out to me!!

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by burnleymik » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:21 am

If this happens democracy dies in the UK. The government have not even tried to implement the vote to leave the EU, not prepared for the scenario to fully leave, not even worked on it and they have had 2 years. Now here we are trying to overturn a democratic decision, that was promised as "once in a generation", "This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide".

Incredible really, absolutely astonishing how we have gotten to this point.

What if Leave (or the equivalent) wins again? Why should the result of this second referendum be respected, as the result of the first clearly isn't being?

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by NottsClaret » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:23 am

I don't reckon Brexit will happen.

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:25 am

burnleymik wrote:If this happens democracy dies in the UK. The government have not even tried to implement the vote to leave the EU, not prepared for the scenario to fully leave, not even worked on it and they have had 2 years. Now here we are trying to overturn a democratic decision, that was promised as "once in a generation", "This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide".

Incredible really, absolutely astonishing how we have gotten to this point.

What if Leave (or the equivalent) wins again? Why should the result of this second referendum be respected, as the result of the first clearly isn't being?
Man up and quit the waffle

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by jlup1980 » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:45 am

We're stuck between a rock and a hard place at the moment.

If we continue down the current path we're doomed as the government doesn't have a clue what it wants to achieve through leaving the EU. If we have a 2nd referendum and Leave wins again we're in the same position. We'll Leave but with no security or assurances over anything... I mean come on, stockpiling food and medicine; really?!

However, and this could ultimately be even worse, if we hold a 2nd referendum and Remain wins we risk civil unrest within our own boundaries and risk becoming a laughing stock globally. Can you imagine going back to the EU now, tail between our legs, asking to stay?! We'd be bent over a barrel before leaving Brussels. I voted Remain but even I know that staying in the EU isn't really an option anymore. We'd be shafted mercilessly by the EU and made an example of.

We need a strong government, one capable of delivering at least a semi-positive Brexit, but we haven't had that since the initial vote so why should we expect anything different now? We've had time to come up with a proposal that would have been acceptable for both sides but our government simply doesn't want to enter into negotiations. So what's the answer?

This isn't what Leave voters wanted and it certainly isn't what Remain voters wanted. Things are getting worse by the week but a 2nd referendum isn't the answer - at least not until we all know exactly what we'll get from voting one way or the other. If we don't know that we're back to where we started; propaganda and lies.

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:14 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:When you do please point the Rat out to me!!

Image
All lefties hate Britain. It is known.

bluelabrador16
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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by bluelabrador16 » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:40 am

Lowbankclaret (Peter Zeihan)
".. It is less the stuff of a global leader and more the behavior of a mafioso..."
:)

Meanwhile ...

U.S. "US debt surpasses $21 trillion — but that won't bother credit agencies ..."

quelle surprise...not!
Last edited by bluelabrador16 on Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by JohnMcGreal » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:57 am

burnleymik wrote:If this happens democracy dies in the UK. The government have not even tried to implement the vote to leave the EU, not prepared for the scenario to fully leave, not even worked on it and they have had 2 years. Now here we are trying to overturn a democratic decision, that was promised as "once in a generation", "This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide".

Incredible really, absolutely astonishing how we have gotten to this point.

What if Leave (or the equivalent) wins again? Why should the result of this second referendum be respected, as the result of the first clearly isn't being?
Of course they implemented the vote to leave the EU, they triggered Article 50. This also respected the referendum result.

Since then, it's become obvious to even the most ardent Brexiteer that we can't carry on down this path without causing harm to ourselves. The public deserve a say on whether we should proceed or change course.

That is a democratic solution to this sorry mess.

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by DustyBawls » Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:56 am

2016: Brexit will mean an extra £350m a week for the NHS.
2018: Try these 7 surprisingly edible recipes for squirrel meat.

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:41 pm

NottsClaret wrote:I don't reckon Brexit will happen.
It will either happen or it won't, at least that's something.

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:05 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:Of course they implemented the vote to leave the EU, they triggered Article 50. This also respected the referendum result.

Since then, it's become obvious to even the most ardent Brexiteer that we can't carry on down this path without causing harm to ourselves. The public deserve a say on whether we should proceed or change course.

That is a democratic solution to this sorry mess.
What has become obvious to even the most ardent Brexiteer is this. Parlimant, the cabinet, the civil service, the political Establishment, the BBC, war criminals like Tony Bliar, multi billionaire foreigners like George Soros, foreign born millionaires like Gina Miller, and an increasingly hysterical rump of the Remoaner population. Simply cannot accept the result of the biggest single expression of democracy the UK has witnessed.

The democratic solution is a very simple one. Enact the referendum result.

No ifs, no buts.

Just leave the EU and it's associated bodies. With a deal or on WTO rules.
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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:15 pm

Guys. Its only democracy to demand a referendum when you're a brexiteer. When you're a Remainer it's tyranny.

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by Vino blanco » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:31 pm

I think I'll start a new party, demanding a referendum on Britain becoming the 51st state of The USA. That would solve all this pointless bickering and be a great move for our future.

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by South West Claret. » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:39 pm

If you do want to vote here is the link:

https://www.change.org/p/theresa-may-mp ... rexit-deal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by houseboy » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:41 pm

Vino blanco wrote:I think I'll start a new party, demanding a referendum on Britain becoming the 51st state of The USA. That would solve all this pointless bickering and be a great move for our future.
Blair thought we were.

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by PutTheWheelieBinsOut » Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:01 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Guys. Its only democracy to demand a referendum when you're a brexiteer. When you're a Remainer it's tyranny.
I'm quite relaxed about another referendum. In 1975 when people voted to join, could they ever have imagined what joining would truely mean and the outcome of that vote?

In 2016 when people voted to leave, could they know for sure what leaving would mean? it's only been 2 years and we haven't even left yet, so why the rush to another referendum?

Remoaners should just relax, put your feet up, obviously express your point of view, just as those people who thought we should leave Europe did between 1975 to 2016, the vote in 1975 didn't silence the other side did it and shouldn't silence yourselves.

As for another referendum, you have to be patient, we can't rush into these things, we need to debate these things, last time it only took 41 years between joining and leaving. So by my calculations that will take us nicely up to 2057, seems reasonable.
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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by JohnMcGreal » Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:21 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:What has become obvious to even the most ardent Brexiteer is this. Parlimant, the cabinet, the civil service, the political Establishment, the BBC, war criminals like Tony Bliar, multi billionaire foreigners like George Soros, foreign born millionaires like Gina Miller, and an increasingly hysterical rump of the Remoaner population. Simply cannot accept the result of the biggest single expression of democracy the UK has witnessed.

The democratic solution is a very simple one. Enact the referendum result.
Ok, we've done that by triggering Article 50 and we're set to exit the EU in March 2019. Under what terms, god knows, but how we leave is still very much up for debate.
RingoMcCartney wrote:Just leave the EU and it's associated bodies. With a deal or on WTO rules.
But that wasn't the referendum result, and you know it.

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:40 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:Ok, we've done that by triggering Article 50 and we're set to exit the EU in March 2019. Under what terms, god knows, but how we leave is still very much up for debate.



But that wasn't the referendum result, and you know it.
Really do I ?

You missed the 2 years of debates that dominated politics then?

Stop rewriting history to suit your agenda.

Isn't if weird. The very same people who didn't want the referendum in 2016. Can't wait to have another one!

Tell you what John. Best of 3....5....7...pal.
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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by Burnley Ace » Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:50 pm

[quote="RingoMcCartney"]Really do I ?

You should, given that you seem to dominate every EU thread! We were told we would get a deal on the same terms - we won't, we were told they need us more than we need them - that doesn't seem to be true, we were told we would continue cooperating on scientific projects - we won't, we were told we would get our fishing rights back - we won't, no one on the leave side mentioned having to trade on WTO terms.

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by Cheerful » Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:54 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Isn't if weird. The very same people who didn't want the referendum in 2016. Can't wait to have another one!

Tell you what John. Best of 3....5....7...pal.

But the votes are for different things.

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:09 pm

Burnley Ace wrote: no one on the leave side mentioned having to trade on WTO terms.
No one on the leave side expected to have an prime minister that capitulates to the EU at every opportunity

No one on the leave side expected the negotiations to be hijacked by a faceless Remoaner civil servant, Olly Robbins.
It's not the fault of 17.400,000 Brits that the Teresanous May lead cabinet and negotiating team are trying to leave the EU when they clearly don't want to.
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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:14 pm

Cheerful wrote:But the votes are for different things.
If a second vote is -

Choice

1 Leave on the deal negotiated by the government

Choice

2 leave on WTO rules

Then it gives people the chance to express their view on the deal and importantly respects and accepts the first referendum.

Anything else is simply a sad attempt at overturning the biggest single expression of democracy the UK has witnessed, dressed up as choice.

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:28 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:If a second vote is -

Choice

1 Leave on the deal negotiated by the government

Choice

2 leave on WTO rules

Then it gives people the chance to express their view on the deal and importantly respects and accepts the first referendum.

Anything else is simply a sad attempt at overturning the biggest single expression of democracy the UK has witnessed, dressed up as choice.
So more people support Remain than support either of those two Leave scenarios and you think it's democratic to leave Remain off the ballot?
You're no democrat.

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:40 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:So more people support Remain than support either of those two Leave scenarios and you think it's democratic to leave Remain off the ballot?
You're no democrat.
We've had the vote whether to leave or Remain.

Your side lost.

You're no democrat

I'm off to watch the game now. Unlike you.

You're no Burnley fan.

What you though is an idiot. I'll give you that.

However, I don't engage with idiots as I find they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Toodle pip

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by burnleymik » Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:45 pm

Cheerful wrote:But the votes are for different things.
Then we don't need an option to remain do we?

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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by PutTheWheelieBinsOut » Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:57 pm

It's perfect permissible to have a vote on what type of leave the country would like i guess.

However the leader of the remain side said about the 2016 referendum it was a once in a generation decision. Or did the remain side lie to the British electorate in 2016? surely not
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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by burnleymik » Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:45 pm

PutTheWheelieBinsOut wrote:It's perfect permissible to have a vote on what type of leave the country would like i guess.

However the leader of the remain side said about the 2016 referendum it was a once in a generation decision. Or did the remain side lie to the British electorate in 2016? surely not
Not only the Remain side agreed it, but also the leaflet that was sent to every single household in the UK:
image (5).png
image (5).png (578.57 KiB) Viewed 2197 times
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Re: Possible 2nd EU Referendum

Post by burnleymik » Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:47 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:Of course they implemented the vote to leave the EU, they triggered Article 50
Article 50 is about starting the due process to leave, not actually having left the EU. Stop being disingenuous.

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