Possible 2nd EU Referendum

[claretandy]

https://metro.co.uk/2018/06/12/theresa- ... t-7624302/

His constituency voted leave, didn't even tell his local party chairman who now says they will be thinking about deselecting him.

[nil_desperandum]

His constituency voted leave, didn't even tell his local party chairman who now says they will be thinking about deselecting him.

That's their prerogative, but as has been highlighted many times, an MP is not a delegate for his constituency, and should always follow his / her own conscience.
As you correctly imply. He will be answerable to his constituency in the future.
It's all part of our partially flawed democracy, but at least Parliament remains sovereign.

[RingoMcCartney]

Message to Ringo

If you are quoting or replying to me then don't bother.

You are neither witty or intelligent enough to argue with me so I ignore your posts.

Debating complicated issues with someone who hasn't even the simplest grasp of basic English is beneath me.

If you're going to attempt to lecture me, on spelling and grammar, put your own house in order! Other wise you'll end up looking like a supercilious hypocritical clown.

Here's a reminder of the comma-free example your linguistic majesty rustled up in an earlier post.

"Conclusive proof, if any were needed that only the stupid, obdurate section of the population voted for and still back Leave."


People in glass houses, Claret-A-High-Horse , people in ponticating glass houses.....

But what's even funnier, is that I'm on your ignore list! And despite being "beneath" you. I'm not that "beneath" you, that you've come out of your self imposed exile from my posts, in order to prove just how much of a raw nerve I've touched for pointing out YOUR punctuation faux pax!!!!!!

Quality!! Absolute gold plated, under your skin, quality.!!

Right I'll assume my deserved position of "beneath" you once again, your eminence!

What a twit. (Me and my spelling eh!?)

[dsr]

His letter of resignation has an odd paragraph in it.

"... Our Parliament should be able to direct our Government to change course in our interests. In all conscience, I cannot support the Government’s decision to oppose this amendment because doing so breaches such fundamental principles of human rights and Parliamentary sovereignty. A vote between bad and worse is not a meaningful vote. And I cannot bring myself to vote for it in the bastion of liberty, freedom and human rights that is our Parliament."

Does he not realise than Parliament can dismiss Teresa May within a couple of days if it so wishes? That it can vote to cancel Brexit altogether, to hold another referendum, or to direct the Government to leave now with no deal and no final payment? Parliament is sovereign. Obviously at least one of those options would be grossly undemocratic unless (or even if) followed by an immediate general election, but Parliament can do any of that.

Parliament could even have insisted on this "meaningful vote" if it had wanted to. It didn't.

[Spijed]

Taken at midday. The miserable bugger didn't even look at me!

[Lancasterclaret]

His constituency voted leave, didn't even tell his local party chairman who now says they will be thinking about deselecting him.

Brexiteer constituencies - respect your voters says Brexiteers

Remain constituencies - respect the will of the people say Brexiteers

[UpTheBeehole]

faux pax!!!!!!

[South West Claret.]

What a shambles this lot are.

[CrosspoolClarets]

The final, key, victory for Remain today. The one that sees smug smiles on the face of Grieve and Soubry but ensures the Tories are out of power for a generation. I’ve been predicting this for 2 years.

The bit that is unclear is where the Leave voters go, but something will happen. A new party is my guess. I suspect May will be gone by July but we will likely be in some half out limbo land with the resulting economic damage that leads to us fully rejoining in 5 years time.

Question - have we ever had a referendum where the result hasn’t been carried out? Can’t think of one. We are thus in unprecedented territory, very interesting times. I suspect all hell will break loose.

[UpTheBeehole]

I suspect all hell will break loose.

Civil war, apparently

[Lancasterclaret]

You going to join Hozz in the Pendle branch of the ABRA?

Hard work being a urban guerilla these days I reckon

[RingoMcCartney]

[quote="UpTheBeehole"][/quote]

Humour. Not your thing?

[UpTheBeehole]

Humour. Not your thing?

Just laughing at you pal. Not with you, at you.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

Just laughing at you pal. Not with you, at you.

If there is a second referendum, I will personally feel the need to start a civil war

Ha! This is brilliant, you couldn't make it up.

Please inform me when you decide to storm Parliament with your personal civil war Hozz.

At least you know you won't be alone, there'll be a few of you from on here like Ringo and Right-Whinger attacking the top of Scotland because you had the map to London upside down.

[Spijed]

The final, key, victory for Remain today. The one that sees smug smiles on the face of Grieve and Soubry but ensures the Tories are out of power for a generation. I’ve been predicting this for 2 years.

The bit that is unclear is where the Leave voters go, but something will happen. A new party is my guess. I suspect May will be gone by July but we will likely be in some half out limbo land with the resulting economic damage that leads to us fully rejoining in 5 years time.

Question - have we ever had a referendum where the result hasn’t been carried out? Can’t think of one. We are thus in unprecedented territory, very interesting times. I suspect all hell will break loose.

It was never going to be easy with the vote so close. Those voting against the government will do so in the knowledge they are in seats that voted to remain.

Is it any wonder that we have a hung parliament with a near 50/50 vote in the referendum, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future?

[Lancasterclaret]

No chance of a No deal now

https://www.facebook.com/14982767671637 ... 183171216/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RingoMcCartney]

Ha! This is brilliant, you couldn't make it up.

Please inform me when you decide to storm Parliament with your personal civil war Hozz.

At least you know you won't be alone, there'll be a few of you from on here like Ringo and Right-Whinger attacking the top of Scotland because you had the map to London upside down.

Another comma, and full stop free post. Your, self-acclaimed, intellectual superiority, really falls short where punctuation is concerned. Isn't it Claret-On-A-Horse.!?

Another return from your self imposed exile from my posts I see!!



Pointing out your grammatical inadequacies must have really hit a raw, highly intellectually superior, nerve eh!?

[Spijed]

No chance of a No deal now

https://www.facebook.com/14982767671637 ... 183171216/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So basically MP's will get a final say.

[nil_desperandum]

Question - have we ever had a referendum where the result hasn’t been carried out? Can’t think of one.
.

Still most likely that he result of this one will be carried out.
The problem from the outset is that no one actually defined what "leave" mean't.
Without opening the same old argument - which has been held endlessly on here - it was a binary referendum, "Remain" was ruled out, but then the battle began to decide the detail of what leaving would entail. Whatever anyone says there was no consensus in the various leave factions as to precisely how or when we would leave.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Now that no deal is off the table we have no bargaining power. Thus we will get a very bad deal. Then we will suffer economically so in time will rejoin. All part of the Remain plan. A bit like a marital trial separation when both sides know they will end up back together.

Obviously the rebels know this and know they have to "leave" first, but a true Brexiteer unlike May would have forced them down. She truly is a terrible PM.

Thus Brexit in the proper sense will not happen so we will never know if it works. A shame but inevitable.

Not civil war, but populism, as in Italy, will now go from strength to strength. That probably means a new party to tap into it who in 10 years could have the balance of power in a permanent hung parliament. Thats my new prediction after predicting this shambles correctly.

[nil_desperandum]

Not civil war, but populism, as in Italy, will now go from strength to strength. That probably means a new party to tap into it who in 10 years could have the balance of power in a permanent hung parliament. Thats my new prediction after predicting this shambles correctly.

Highly unlikely with our electoral system (FPTP) that an extreme populist party could ever hold the balance of power.
Just look at UKip: millions of votes / voters, and fighting on a "popular" single issue, but not even Farage could get anywhere near to a Parliamentary seat. The only success they had was with two "rogue" Conservatives, who took most of their supporters with them.
Added to this, most surveys suggest that voters under the age of 30, and those who are likely to join the electoral roll in the next decade, are far more tolerant than the generation that they are replacing. I don't detect many Gerald Howarths amongst them.
I'm pretty sure that no one under the age of 30 keeps going on about who won the war, in fact it's a tiny minority under the age of 65.

[JohnMcGreal]

It sounds like the Brexit that the nutters wanted is dead in the water.

[Dazzler]

It is inexplicable that so many defeatists on the Remain side think we need men in suits in Brussels to run our lives.We don't.

What we do need is people charged with running this country to start earning their crust and not hide behind those faceless bureaucrats.

[Paul Waine]

Added to this, most surveys suggest that voters under the age of 30, and those who are likely to join the electoral roll in the next decade, are far more tolerant than the generation that they are replacing.

Interesting statement re tolerance, nil_d. Do we think that can be true? A quick glance through the threads on this mb suggests that tolerance isn't one of the strongest characteristics of the posters. And, what about all the "no platform" and other stuff that flows through unis and the like these days?

I wish the surveys were right, but.....

[Lancasterclaret]

Now that no deal is off the table we have no bargaining power. Thus we will get a very bad deal. Then we will suffer economically so in time will rejoin. All part of the Remain plan. A bit like a marital trial separation when both sides know they will end up back together.

Up to your lot to put together a coherent plan to make leave actually better. You comprehensively failed to do that by promising far too much to win the referendum in the first place.

Reminds me of competitive bidding for a contract with a ludicrously low offer and then wondering about how to service it after you'd won it.

[BleedingClaret]

That's their prerogative, but as has been highlighted many times, an MP is not a delegate for his constituency, and should always follow his / her own conscience.
As you correctly imply. He will be answerable to his constituency in the future.
It's all part of our partially flawed democracy, but at least Parliament remains sovereign.

I suspect most people think our democracy works as a direct democracy and don’t really grasp the concept of a representative system.
He’s elected to serve them as he believes is in their best interest.
Not to be self serving though as is happening all to often, at party and personal levels.

[Lancasterclaret]

Exactly, the most annoying about listening and reading today was the sheer amount of people who don't understand that today was all about taking back control to our representative democracy, rather than effectively giving the govt unlimited power (which could and would be misused)

I'm being generous, but I think far too many people are genuinely confused by all this, rather than being in favour of a fascist one party state with no dissent which is the conclusion that an uncharitable person would draw.

[Greenmile]

Seems to have given the Brexiters (on here at least, and no doubt elsewhere) a chance to save face and blame the remoaners when their unicorns don’t arrive, so everyone’s a winner really (apart from the inevitable victims of Hozz’s one man civil war).

[Damo]

The royal mail have issued some stamps in support of remainers.
https://www.royalmail.com/dadsarmystamp ... MO_H1_DA50" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

The royal mail have issued some stamps in support of leavers.
https://www.royalmail.com/dadsarmystamp ... MO_H1_DA50" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RingoMcCartney]

Brexiteer constituencies - respect your voters says Brexiteers

Remain constituencies - respect the will of the people say Brexiteers

MPs had a vote like everybody else on 23rd June 2016.

MPs should reflect how their constituents voted. - Ringo McCartney.








(401 out of 632 MPs represent constituencies which voted for Brexit in the referendum.)

[Lancasterclaret]

Thats not how representative democracy works Ringo.

I'm not sure why you are so worried by this, Brexit is still happening, its just not going to be the fantasy one that was promised.

We will all lose out, but at least the result has been respected, which I'm told is the main thing.

Also, can someone get hold of Hozz and tell him to stand down.

Cheers

[RingoMcCartney]

Thats not how representative democracy works Ringo.

I'm not sure why you are so worried by this, Brexit is still happening, its just not going to be the fantasy one that was promised.

We will all lose out, but at least the result has been respected, which I'm told is the main thing.

Also, can someone get hold of Hozz and tell him to stand down.

Cheers

If you know how representative democracy works. Then why did you attempt to highlight what you see as inconsistencies in brexiteers stance?

[Lancasterclaret]

Because that is what brexiteers have been saying, certainly on the radio and on twitter.

[aggi]

in the biggest single expression of democracy the UK has witnessed!)

Out of curiosity, why do you often refer to it in this way? What makes it the biggest, single expression of democracy for the UK?

[Imploding Turtle]

Out of curiosity, why do you often refer to it in this way? What makes it the biggest, single expression of democracy for the UK?

Because he thinks it makes it immune to us changing our mind, maybe? Who knows.

[Caballo]

Out of curiosity, why do you often refer to it in this way? What makes it the biggest, single expression of democracy for the UK?

Because he thinks it makes it immune to us changing our mind, maybe? Who knows.

At a guess. More people voted than ever before (numerically not as a % turnout), it was a binary decision. It therefore stands to reason that more people voted for one of the choices than had ever done before.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

At a guess. More people voted than ever before (numerically not as a % turnout), it was a binary decision. It therefore stands to reason that more people voted for one of the choices than had ever done before.

A shame it was tainted by false information, that's why a second referendum is required to be an even bigger, single expression of democracy for the UK.

It won't be regarded as democracy at all though if Ringo's side doesn't win.

[Caballo]

A shame it was tainted by false information,

It won't be regarded as democracy at all though if Ringo's side doesn't win.

You're probably right on both counts, though the words pot, kettle and black immediately spring to mind.

[Lancasterclaret]

Well no, I don't think anyone on the remain side has said anything to suggest that you can't vote again about this. There is nothing to suggest that this won't dominate British politics for decades.

But saying that, Brexiteers are terrified of a second vote, and have spent two years proving to the millions who aren't as set in their minds as me or Ringo that they can't be trusted and haven't actually got a plan they can all get behind.

And one thing is for sure, no one can say that they are not better informed this time around. Crikey, we should all be experts on this by now

[Imploding Turtle]

At a guess. More people voted than ever before (numerically not as a % turnout), it was a binary decision. It therefore stands to reason that more people voted for one of the choices than had ever done before.

Also, our population is bigger than ever before, so it's pretty irrelevent to talk about raw numbers when percentages exist.

I do agree that it was a pretty big display of democracy, albeit a flawed one because of an awful campaign that taught us nothing about what we were voting on, but if we're supposed to draw a conclusion from the result the only conclusion that can be drawn from such a close result is "we don't ******* know, how about the very softest of Brexits?".

But when the likes of Ringo start talking about how this is a mandate for us to leave the EU at any cost that's when you get pushback from people like me because get ******. That's not what we voted for as a country, and it's not what was pitched by Vote Leave either. They pitched that we can have all the main benefits of being in the EU but without being in the EU. And on that softest Brexit pitch they won by a tiny margin. But that's not what they're fighting for now.

Softest possible Brexit, or we must measure the country's opinion again in the case of a harder brexit because a harder brexit isn't what was pitched.

[RingoMcCartney]

Because that is what brexiteers have been saying, certainly on the radio and on twitter.

Representative democracy is a type of democracy founded on the principle of elected officials representing a group of people.

Those elected officials, by a ratio of 5 to 1, agreed to pass the decision whether or not to Remain or Leave the the European Union, to the British People. In the form of a binary,once in a generation, referendum. The sovereignty of parliament is only achieved because it has the consent of the People. Therefore by agreeing to a referendum, the elected representatives passed that sovereignty back to the People.

A representative democracy refers to the process around a general election. We vote for our elected representatives and we send them of to parliament for 5 years. As you know the notion of representative democracy, with regards to a referendum, is irrelevant. As the process of deciding an issue is passed back to the People themselves. They decide unilaterally without the need for representation.

But if you want to pretend it does in order to mock brexiteers. Fine. Let's pretend it does and play the numbers game and count the number of elected officials ( i.e. Mps ) whose constituencies voted Leave. 401 out of 650. You lost.

[RingoMcCartney]

A shame it was tainted by false information, that's why a second referendum is required to be an even bigger, single expression of democracy for the UK.

It won't be regarded as democracy at all though if Ringo's side doesn't win.

But it WILL be if you side DO!!!!!

Aah the old Neverendums till we get the result we want technique!!!

Isn't it hilarious. The very ones who didn't want a referendum in the first place. Can't wait to have another one less than 2 years after the first!!!

[RingoMcCartney]

You're probably right on both counts, though the words pot, kettle and black immediately spring to mind.

Don't remember it being the "best of 3,4,5,..." referendum. Do you?.

[RingoMcCartney]

Out of curiosity, why do you often refer to it in this way? What makes it the biggest, single expression of democracy for the UK?

I don't think any other single issue or party received 17,4 million votes in political history, do you? If there was, I stand corrected.

I won't hold my breath waiting for you're research though. You're still under the misguided belief that , a losing party in a general election can enact it's manifesto pledge, therefore causing a constitutional crisis, by going against constitutional and parliamentary procedure. And can't tell the difference between that, and a government being politically opportunist, by adopting another parties policies in order to make themselves popular!!!

Get back When you've figured the difference out aggi.

[Lancasterclaret]

Ringo two years of you effectively going "Yay boo! Brexiteers 1 Remainers 0" and you still don't get it?

The Government fell on the day after the referendum, and was replaced by a cabinet mix of uber-brexiteers and some cautious remainers, while Labour decided to go back to the 70s.

Then was the time for the govt to come up with a Brexit plan that would suit the majority and reconcile the country, but they couldn't, because the uber-brexiteers had been given the lead, and they have spent decades wanting to leave the EU (decades wanting to leave, but not actually bothering their arse sorting out a plan for when we leave) but the problem became apparent really quickly that what had been promised to the voters couldn't actually be delivered.

So they had a problem, the first one being that the uber-brexiteers are in the main people like Fox, Johnson, Davis, Duncan-Smith, basically political failures and regarded as not actually very good (Iain Duncan Smith spent seven years on welfare reform and forgot it was about welfare for example) and basically not up to the job. The second one was that they saw the opinion polls and thought they could wipe out Labour and enshrine the Conservatives in power for a generation, so they concentrated on that rather than sorting out Brexit. They thought people like you are in the main and that they'd have a Thatcher/Blair type majority to work with an uber-brexit stance. And they didn't get it.

And its been downhill from there.

The only way we get out of this is if Brexit satisfies as many people as possible. Your vision (and Crosspools, and Dsr for that matter) are not shared by enough people for it to happen. It really is that simple. If you'd said on the side of that bus that we were leaving everything, would take an economic hit and it could take a generation to recover (or if Farage et al had said all that) then you'd never have won.

Best bet now is trying for an EEA+ Customs Union and making sure we keep track of EU citizens using the mechanisms that we allowed to do under EU law. That stops economic catastrophe and means we are not in the EU.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Highly unlikely with our electoral system (FPTP) that an extreme populist party could ever hold the balance of power.
Just look at UKip: millions of votes / voters, and fighting on a "popular" single issue, but not even Farage could get anywhere near to a Parliamentary seat. The only success they had was with two "rogue" Conservatives, who took most of their supporters with them.
Added to this, most surveys suggest that voters under the age of 30, and those who are likely to join the electoral roll in the next decade, are far more tolerant than the generation that they are replacing. I don't detect many Gerald Howarths amongst them.
I'm pretty sure that no one under the age of 30 keeps going on about who won the war, in fact it's a tiny minority under the age of 65.

I don’t mean an extreme populist party (I agree with your analysis).

I mean a centric party, led by a charismatic Blair-equivalent, but who is pro-independence and anti-EU (or, probably better described as anti the extreme EU it is developing into). The party would need to hoover up Leave voters of all types, so the migration watching older and poorer voters along with the richer free trade loving right of centre voters. It would also have to be mainstream in a way that attracts many Remain voters to its banner because the party would stand for far more than Brexit.

I can see such a party getting 30% of the vote if at least 20 MPs defected to it. The problem is the way Labour and the Tories are funded. It would be very hard for the vested interests in rich business and rich trade unions to allow a new party to take shape. A new generation of MP could emerge with no historic loyalty to the old parties so the party could be more principled and less seduced by power.

I think something will happen. I just hope it is as rose tinted as I describe.

[Lancasterclaret]

Isn't that UKIP under that bloke who used to be a game show host though?

Look where they are now.

[RingoMcCartney]

Ringo two years of you effectively going "Yay boo! Brexiteers 1 Remainers 0" and you still don't get it?

The Government fell on the day after the referendum, and was replaced by a cabinet mix of uber-brexiteers and some cautious remainers, while Labour decided to go back to the 70s.

Then was the time for the govt to come up with a Brexit plan that would suit the majority and reconcile the country, but they couldn't, because the uber-brexiteers had been given the lead, and they have spent decades wanting to leave the EU (decades wanting to leave, but not actually bothering their arse sorting out a plan for when we leave) but the problem became apparent really quickly that what had been promised to the voters couldn't actually be delivered.

So they had a problem, the first one being that the uber-brexiteers are in the main people like Fox, Johnson, Davis, Duncan-Smith, basically political failures and regarded as not actually very good (Iain Duncan Smith spent seven years on welfare reform and forgot it was about welfare for example) and basically not up to the job. The second one was that they saw the opinion polls and thought they could wipe out Labour and enshrine the Conservatives in power for a generation, so they concentrated on that rather than sorting out Brexit. They thought people like you are in the main and that they'd have a Thatcher/Blair type majority to work with an uber-brexit stance. And they didn't get it.

And its been downhill from there.

The only way we get out of this is if Brexit satisfies as many people as possible. Your vision (and Crosspools, and Dsr for that matter) are not shared by enough people for it to happen. It really is that simple. If you'd said on the side of that bus that we were leaving everything, would take an economic hit and it could take a generation to recover (or if Farage et al had said all that) then you'd never have won.

Best bet now is trying for an EEA+ Customs Union and making sure we keep track of EU citizens using the mechanisms that we allowed to do under EU law. That stops economic catastrophe and means we are not in the EU.

"Uber brexiteers" or in the real world 17.4 million Britons.

You clearly still don't get it. But given your idea of Leave is actually to Remain. It's understandable.

[Lancasterclaret]

It isn't though is it Ringo

If it was, then May would have romped home in last years election on an uber-brexit manifesto.

Facts 1 Ringo 0